Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXXXII: Stepping up in a Perfect Storm?

[TheBloodyNine]

So specifically, you believe that the answer to both questions below is an unequivocal "yes".

1) Did you know that at the time of the trade that Fox was already borderline elite level defenseman?
2) Was Miller developed in Wisconsin?​

I agree with everything Tob said in regards to Quinn, who you appear to have a stalker like fascination with.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I think anyone who followed Fox knew he had the potential to be an elite defenseman. I mean he was the best D in college behind only Makar and the best D for the USA at the WJC. He had accomplished pretty much anything a prospect could at an elite level besides be drafted really high so people are comfortable projecting him to do great things. I even argued against trading for Trouba until we knew what we had in Fox. Because he was just that good.

Did anyone know? I'm not sure if your question is just poorly worded or disingenuous. You never know. Even after seeing a player meet or exceed expectations at the NHL level you don't know. But you can guess, which is probably what the Rangers did and is why they traded two high picks for a guy they could have potentially signed for free a year later.

What exactly is the argument here? That between being awesome outside the NHL and being awesome in the NHL something happened to his development in training camp that made him awesome?

His argument is that Quinn is always right, has done a masterful job developing all prospects, and any criticism of Quinn is undeserved.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

I'm as big a fan of Blackwell as anyone, and even I can't understand the insistence to defend Quinn's decision. Chytil, Panarin, Kakko, and ADA are all out of the lineup and we still can't see the #1 overall draft pick get an opportunity on the top PP unit. That is insane.

THANK YOU. This is the exact reason why it's so frustrating.

 

[bobbop]

I love how Montgomery had Dallas playing. I'm all for it. He's young as well.

Vegas was young-ish when Gallant took over and a lot of those 'misfits' had career years. I think Gallant and Martin could be a good duo.

IMO it's a young mans game. It's all about speed and skill.. I think good coaching and structure will be as important as ever, as teams get younger.

Montgomery is 51.

You are correct about Vegas players having career years but it was not a young team by any stretch. Gallant is 57. He may or may not be the right guy in the future but I’ll guess he has a job before the Rangers are ready to move on Quinn.

 

[Fitzy]

I'm as big a fan of Blackwell as anyone, and even I can't understand the insistence to defend Quinn's decision. Chytil, Panarin, Kakko, and ADA are all out of the lineup and we still can't see the #1 overall draft pick get an opportunity on the top PP unit. That is insane.

This is a sticky-worthy post.

I'm happy with some decisions Quinn has made but this is indefensible.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

His argument is that Quinn is always right, has done a masterful job developing all prospects, and any criticism of Quinn is undeserved.

Well this opinion would just flat out be wrong...

But I don't think you can argue against Fox developing as a player under Quinn either. He's definitely gotten better since he stepped into the league.

I'm near the front of the line to get tickets to the Quinn should be fired tour, but I don't think player development has been an issue under Quinn for the most part.

Lafreniere should be on PP 1 right now though.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Because maybe that's where they think he's best served at this exact moment. It's clearly not because someone else is blocking him. Maybe they just feel this is better for him right now. I don't know. But people losing their minds over this or convincing themselves they are ruining this prospect is the absolute height of dumbf***ery.

PP are objectively the most sheltered minutes that exist. Most other orgs (see below) give their top kids these padded minutes - why not the NYR, especially considering Panarin, Kakko, Chytil, and DeAngelo being out? More than fair question and far from "the height of dumbf***ery" if you ask me.

PP TOI / GP this season among high profile rookies as selected by me:
Zegras 4:37
Kaprizov 4:07
Stutzle 2:50
Tolvanen 2:17
Ty Smith 2:16
Hayton 2:15
Lafreniere 2:03 (13th overall)
Cozens 1:29
Byram 1:13

2019-20:
Hughes 3:48
Makar 3:43
Hughes 3:11
Zadina 2:32
Kakko 2:14 (10th overall)
Glass 2:14
Suzuki 2:10
Fox 1:59
Necas 1:48
Dach 1:34

2018-19:
Pettersson 3:35
Dahlin 2:51
Zadina 2:18
Tkachuk 2:14
Kotkaniemi 1:56
Necas 1:55
Svechnikov 1:55

2017-18:
Barzal 3:10
Keller 3:01
Boeser 2:55
Connor 2:40
Hischier 2:03
Dubois 1:56
Patrick 1:50

2016-17:
Laine 2:44
Rantanen 2:43
Point 2:31
Matthews 2:27
Marner 2:23
Nylander 2:21
Aho 2:13
Tkachuk 2:01

2015-16:
Eichel 3:02
McDavid 2:58

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Well this opinion would just flat out be wrong...

But I don't think you can argue against Fox developing as a player under Quinn either. He's definitely gotten better since he stepped into the league.

I'm near the front of the line to get tickets to the Quinn should be fired tour, but I don't think player development has been an issue under Quinn for the most part.

Lafreniere should be on PP 1 right now though.

As I’ve said before I think he does a wonderful job with guys who played in college and a bad job with guys who have played elsewhere. But absolutely I knew Fox was gonna be this good. I would say that you did as well right?

 

[jay from jersey]

So the 3-5 minutes he would get on PPI is more important the the other 54 minutes? Sweet!

It’s not and or. It’s both. You reward the kid. Put him in a position with more open ice. He just scored by “ stopping in front of the net” as diabolical Dave put it. Maybe you boost his ego/morale a little bit and let the talent come out. No Blackwell. Ok Dave ok. Indefensible decision no matter what anyone says

 

[bl02]

Strome? At last check Strome players center. Is that where you want to move Lafreniere?

Have you seen his 5 on 5 time? When compared to other rookies, how do you say with a straight face that he is not being given the opportunities to flourish? Or does that only pertain to PP1 time?

I guess you're just picking which posts you wanna read. Yes pertains to the pp time. I even gave DQ credit for giving him top 6 minutes regular strength which makes it even more puzzling why he can't give him a chance on the pp1 where maybe he can have a bit more open space to display these amazing abilities we've all been told about and seen before this year.
Strome? Who cares if he plays center. So does Mika why do we need another center on the pp? Oh to take a faceoff that he inevitably loses. Why should that be the reason to preclude a stud like Lafreniere getting pp1 time?
That is the coaches job anyway to figure out how to get Lafreniere pp time especially with no Panarin here right now.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

PP are objectively the most sheltered minutes that exist. Most other orgs (see below) give their top kids these padded minutes - why not the NYR, especially considering Panarin, Kakko, Chytil, and DeAngelo being out? More than fair question and far from "the height of dumbf***ery" if you ask me.

PP TOI / GP this season among high profile rookies as selected by me:
Zegras 4:37
Kaprizov 4:07
Stutzle 2:50
Tolvanen 2:17
Ty Smith 2:16
Hayton 2:15
Lafreniere 2:03 (13th overall)
Cozens 1:29
Byram 1:13

2019-20:
Hughes 3:48
Makar 3:43
Hughes 3:11
Zadina 2:32
Kakko 2:14 (10th overall)
Glass 2:14
Suzuki 2:10
Fox 1:59
Necas 1:48
Dach 1:34

2018-19:
Pettersson 3:35
Dahlin 2:51
Zadina 2:18
Tkachuk 2:14
Kotkaniemi 1:56
Necas 1:55
Svechnikov 1:55

2017-18:
Barzal 3:10
Keller 3:01
Boeser 2:55
Connor 2:40
Hischier 2:03
Dubois 1:56
Patrick 1:50

2016-17:
Laine 2:44
Rantanen 2:43
Point 2:31
Matthews 2:27
Marner 2:23
Nylander 2:21
Aho 2:13
Tkachuk 2:01

2015-16:
Eichel 3:02
McDavid 2:58

So at the top of your 2021 list is a kid who's played in exactly 1 NHL game and another player 4 years older? The rest all within 40 seconds of each other, which is basically an extra PP shift a game. Like I said, dumbf***ery.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

It’s not and or. It’s both. You reward the kid. Put him in a position with more open ice. He just scored by “ stopping in front of the net” as diabolical Dave put it. Maybe you boost his ego/morale a little bit and let the talent come out. No Blackwell. Ok Dave ok. Indefensible decision no matter what anyone says

You guys make it sound like he's being buried on the 4th line. The kid is starting tonight's game on the first line. How is he not being rewarded?

 

[bl02]

I am in the same place I always have been.

Do you believe that when it comes to the development of Kakko and Lafreniere that the first and final word belongs to Quinn?

Regarding the PP, can Lafreiere actually dominate on the 2nd pair first?

Individuals are being developed both for their level of play and for the overall team structure.

Unfortunately, there is no 2nd pp unit chances. Hard to dominate a pp when you are given the final 10 seconds of a pp that has to gain zone entry. Probably McDavid would be the only player in the NHL that could realistically make something happen in that time frame

 

[zlev]

so when do we hire Julien? by April or after the season?

 

[Cmox]

Just asking for this "elite" prospect to get some time on the ice where he has some time and space. This f***ing division is filled with teams that just suffocate you 5 on 5.

could lose 10-4 and I’d be fine if laff got 2 of those points with legitimate minutes. id be ecstatic if he got all 4.

 

[duhmetreE]

I am in the same place I always have been.

Do you believe that when it comes to the development of Kakko and Lafreniere that the first and final word belongs to Quinn?

Regarding the PP, can Lafreiere actually dominate on the 2nd pair first?

Individuals are being developed both for their level of play and for the overall team structure.

The entire point was about the PP. you made it into something besides the PP, ie you're all over the palce

So now, we're adding a pre-requisite that Laf must dominate PP2 to get PP1 time? You create standards/requirements only if it benefits your narrative.

How about we just give our 1st Overall pick, arguably our most prized draft pick ever, a chance to shine on PP1, with a lot of talent missing and/or struggling? Set him up for success maybe build some confidence? Nope, he must dominate on PP2 first with the junk time he gets... The same PP unit that cant even enter the zone, dont worry, they practiced it again...

I like Blackwell and think he could be a decent plug on the PP... BUT choosing him over Lafreniere is flat out dumb.

 

[EdJovanovski]

In the waiting room for my follow up appointment with the sports doctor after my MRI, MRI said I have a partial ACL tear. We’ll see what she says and whether I need surgery.

Tomorrow at 5:30AM I have an appointment with the doctor from NYC regarding my head. (Pulsatile tinnitus [whooshing bloodflow sound in ears] & chronic migraines). He’s looking at the final scans in this year long journey, and will be able to determine whether I have a neurovascular abnormality. If not it is likely MEM (Middle Ear Myoclonus) which is simply spasms of small muscles in the middle ear, which would be quite the anti-climactic sigh of relief lol. I just got my Temporal CT scan back and it determined I do NOT have SCDS which is one of the things we were afraid I had (thinning or holes in bone between ears & brain). Today & tomorrow are very big days for me!!! Go Rangers

 

[jay from jersey]

If and when Quinn gets whacked, just remember this will still be a very young team with a mandate to develop young players. Look, I'm intrigued by Gallant because of what happened in Vegas but was that because it was more of a veteran team? I don't know if Gallant is the right coach for that situation.

One guy I think may be considered for a second chance is Jim Montgomery.

Monty would be perfect but fat chance. We’d Likely see Tony D running the PP again before he gets hired. Unfortunate because he was a good coach

 

[egelband]

In the waiting room for my follow up appointment with the sports doctor after my MRI, MRI said I have a partial ACL tear. We’ll see what she says and whether I need surgery.

Tomorrow at 5:30AM I have an appointment with the doctor from NYC regarding my head. (Pulsatile tinnitus [whooshing bloodflow sound in ears] & chronic migraines). He’s looking at the final scans in this year long journey, and will be able to determine whether I have a neurovascular abnormality. I just got my Temporal CT scan back and it determined I do NOT have SCDS which is one of the things we were afraid I had (thinning or holes in bone between ears & brain). Today & tomorrow are very big days for me!!! Go Rangers

Best of luck to you!

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

so when do we hire Julien? by April or after the season?

After we hire Kirk Muller.

 

[Tob]

Tob pointed out that both Fox and Miller came to the Rangers fully formed. Do you agree?

If yes, then please answer these two very easy quetions:
1) Did you know that at the time of the trade that Fox was already borderline elite level defenseman?
2) Was Miller developed in Wisconsin?

yes and yes

I think i gave quinn partial credit for Key and Fox. Not none.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

As I’ve said before I think he does a wonderful job with guys who played in college and a bad job with guys who have played elsewhere. But absolutely I knew Fox was gonna be this good. I would say that you did as well right?

Nope.

I thought he could peak at what he was last year but hes exceeded my expectations. I should probably give the ECAC more credit than I did.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Montgomery is 51.

You are correct about Vegas players having career years but it was not a young team by any stretch. Gallant is 57. He may or may not be the right guy in the future but I’ll guess he has a job before the Rangers are ready to move on Quinn.

Wasn’t Montgomery reported as our preferred candidate after AV got fired? I could’ve sworn I remembered a lot of people pumping his tires

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Wasn’t Montgomery reported as our preferred candidate after AV got fired? I could’ve sworn I remembered a lot of people pumping his tires

Yes this was the case.

 

[duhmetreE]

Miller looked like this since Covid Camp which made JD gush over him. Since then, I knew he was making the squad the upcoming season.

Jacques Martin has helped the defense a lot. I do not know the exact intricate workings of the coaching staff BUT the players were no where near as good as they are this year.

JM improved their positioning, gaps, stick work, reading, getting in lanes, shot blocking, PK etc... In every aspect, they are leaps and bounds better than they have ever been under Quinn. If you want to give the majority of the credit to Quinn for that, you'd be wrong.

Quinn has done well with some of the 'older' players, (his star pupils, Buchnevich, Zibs and ADA). Using it as a 'get out of jail' card for all the other shit, is fallacious