Roster Building Thread IV (2019/2020)

[GeorgeKaplan]

They both had performance bonuses, but if either of them earned a penny of those bonuses, I'd be surprised.

They both had annual signing bonus’ they received

 

[GAGLine]

They both had annual signing bonus’ they received

Neither player received a signing bonus last year. Lemieux played 4 years on his ELC, and DeAngelo 5 years, due to the slide rule. Their signing bonuses were paid out in the first 3 years.

Furthermore, last year was the first year that either player spent the entire season on an NHL roster, therefore earning their full NHL salary. Both earned a lot more last year than they did in previous years, and their QOs are 5% higher than that.

 

[Kupo]

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Gorton and the two agents weren't already in complete agreement already on both 1-year (the QO) and 2-year deals – and just waiting to see if there's any chance at all that they'll be able to go the 2-year route.

This wouldn't surprise me one bit. If this scenario isn't the case though, then I think they're both hurting their chances of being long term options here. Especially ADA who's on his third team and has a reputation. You don't want to be a horses ass who's also tough to negotiate with. Old school guys like Sather and J.D might be turned off by that.

I bet it doesn’t feel that way when the organization is essentially forcing them to extend their ELCs

Neither player is arbitration eligible. That's like you going to your boss and asking for a raise without having a reason to do so.

I like ADA a lot. Beyond being a RFA, if there's a worry about committing long term to ADA, there is no one to blame besides ADA.

He's ultimately responsible for being on his third NHL team despite being just a 23 year old. He'll be on his 4th team before you know it if he becomes problematic with contracts, especially with Trouba and Fox here, and Lundkvist not too far away.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Neither player received a signing bonus last year. Lemieux played 4 years on his ELC, and DeAngelo 5 years, due to the slide rule. Their signing bonuses were paid out in the first 3 years.

Furthermore, last year was the first year that either player spent the entire season on an NHL roster, therefore earning their full NHL salary. Both earned a lot more last year than they did in previous years, and their QOs are 5% higher than that.

Fair enough, I’ll concede that. I don’t even think either deserve a long term deal, however I feel like they both (especially DeAngelo) earned more than what they’re being offered. Something like a 1 year in the $1.5m range like a lot of players that prove they can play in the NHL but haven’t necessarily locked it down yet get after their ELCs

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Neither player is arbitration eligible. That's like you going to your boss and asking for a raise without having a reason to do so.

I get they’re not arbitration eligible, but it’s not like that at all

 

[RGY]

Lemieux’s camp knows the Rangers have a very, very young team with little protection for these kids. Add in his work on the boards, etc I think the Lemieux camp knows what they’re doing. The kid isn’t doing this on his own accord.

If he signs, it’s a mute discussion yet the discussion continues b/c despite the CBA, leverage, etc, b/c he’s not signed.

Quite the head scratcher here.

He isn’t signed nor his DeAngelo because the Rangers are in no rush to do so. They do have the leverage and they will wait this out as long as they need to. They will play another winger on the 4th line because right now thats where Lemmy slots in. Even if Lemmy can push his way to the 3rd line (which i believe he can) the Rangers have someone in that slot in Namestnikov. But the thing is Lemmy needs to earn his way to that spot. Namestnikov is a proven NHLer. And as much as I like Lemmy, he hasn’t proven shit yet.

It is the same story for ADA. He is on his 3rd NHL team already in such a short and young career. He has been benched multiple times. These guys are the ones with no leverage because they haven’t proven anything yet and what they need to be doing is getting on the ice to prove otherwise. Smith will play 3rd pair minutes. Even 2nd pair minutes if he has to because they want to ease Fox in. And while so many do not like Smith, he actually carved out an NHL career. The Rangers know this. They are not going to cave for two kids who have combined played 204 games over the last 3 seasons.

So you can talk about what elements each player brings to the table, but those same “elements” have not done enough for them to show they are worth the money they are hoping for. ADA’s weak defense, although improving ever so slightly, and undisciplined play is replaceable. Lemmy’s “board work” and “protection” is replaceable. Sorry but they are. This is a business. Sure the Rangers want them to be a part of the makeup of this team but they certainly wont be strong armed by these two kids.

 

[Kupo]

I get they’re not arbitration eligible, but it’s not like that at all

I get what you're saying and it wasn't the best analogy. ADA and Lemmy know how much cap space we have. They know they won't get the raise they want unless Gorton finds a way to move someone out. That's why I think Brooklyn's post nailed what's going on.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

I get what you're saying and it wasn't the best analogy. ADA and Lemmy know how much cap space we have. They know they won't get the raise they want unless Gorton finds a way to move someone out. That's why I think Brooklyn's post nailed what's going on.

I understand all of that, but at the same time they shouldn’t have to take the hit for Gorton’s spending and reluctance to make moves to fit them in without strong arming them into taking less than they should be getting

 

[nyr2k2]

I understand all of that, but at the same time they shouldn’t have to take the hit for Gorton’s spending and reluctance to make moves to fit them in without strong arming them into taking less than they should be getting

Well do we know what's on the table? I mean if they're offering ADA $1.1M or something like that, I would say it's eminently reasonable. And honestly, the QO for Lemieux is probably pretty reasonable, too. If you're of the opinion that ADA should receive a longer deal, I get that. Otherwise, I think anything around their QOs is oging to be reasonable for these guys. Lemieux really just broke in, and ADA has some warts and himself didn't really start to impress until the second half.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Well do we know what's on the table? I mean if they're offering ADA $1.1M or something like that, I would say it's eminently reasonable. And honestly, the QO for Lemieux is probably pretty reasonable, too. If you're of the opinion that ADA should receive a longer deal, I get that. Otherwise, I think anything around their QOs is oging to be reasonable for these guys. Lemieux really just broke in, and ADA has some warts and himself didn't really start to impress until the second half.

Exactly. This isn't Kapanen or Werenski we're talking about.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Well do we know what's on the table? I mean if they're offering ADA $1.1M or something like that, I would say it's eminently reasonable. And honestly, the QO for Lemieux is probably pretty reasonable, too. If you're of the opinion that ADA should receive a longer deal, I get that. Otherwise, I think anything around their QOs is oging to be reasonable for these guys. Lemieux really just broke in, and ADA has some warts and himself didn't really start to impress until the second half.

I mean, why shouldn’t either of them get what Ericsson Ek just got (even if just for one season)? Even if JEE has played more games, it’s not outrageous to say that either of them are better than him and he wasn’t arb eligible either

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I mean, why shouldn’t either of them get what Ericsson Ek just got (even if just for one season)? Even if JEE has played more games, it’s not outrageous to say that either of them are better than him and he wasn’t arb eligible either

Saying lemieux is better than JEE is outrageous. Not saying he's much worse, but there is no way Lemieux is either better or more valuable.

As for DeAngelo: Not sure I want to compare defensemen to forwards when it comes to contracts

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Saying lemieux is better than JEE is outrageous. Not saying he's much worse, but there is no way Lemieux is either better or more valuable.

As for DeAngelo: Not sure I want to compare defensemen to forwards when it comes to contracts

JEE had 14 points in 58 games last season
Lemieux has 17 in 63

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

JEE had 14 points in 58 games last season
Lemieux has 17 in 63

JEE is a center, Lemieux is a winger.

 

[nyr2k2]

I mean, why shouldn’t either of them get what Ericsson Ek just got (even if just for one season)? Even if JEE has played more games, it’s not outrageous to say that either of them are better than him and he wasn’t arb eligible either

Their P/PG production is similar but Eriksson Ek has played in twice the amount of games despite being a year younger than Lemieux. JEE has only played in 18 AHL games but has 18 points, far outpacing Lemieux. Eriksson Ek is more accomplished, if only a bit more so, while being younger. He's more valuable.

Can't compare ADA to a forward.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

JEE is a center, Lemieux is a winger.

And Lemieux brings a skill set that every team has been trying hard to find to the point where teams were calling the Rangers trying to get Lemieux within the few hour window between getting him and the trade deadline

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

And Lemieux brings a skill set that every team has been trying hard to find to the point where teams were calling the Rangers trying to get Lemieux within the few hour window between getting him and the trade deadline

And nobody has shown interest in JEE?

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

And nobody has shown interest in JEE?

I’m not saying they haven’t, but just saying ‘center vs winger’ doesn’t paint the full picture of their value within the league

 

[GAGLine]

I mean, why shouldn’t either of them get what Ericsson Ek just got (even if just for one season)? Even if JEE has played more games, it’s not outrageous to say that either of them are better than him and he wasn’t arb eligible either

Whether they should or shouldn't isn't really relevant at this point. I mean, if you want to go down that road, I can ask why either of them deserve more than Labanc. Labanc obviously took less than he is worth, far less. It shouldn't be a big deal for ADA and Lemieux to take a little less for one year. They will get what we can afford, which is their QO. Maybe Gorton will kick in a little extra on their next contract because they took a little less this year.

 

[Leetch3]

the QO is based on total salary (base salary + signing bonus). but neither guy had a signing bonus...both of their ELC had slide years so they got paid the signing bonuses before they were in the NHL and had no signing bonus last year. they were both paid $832,500 last year

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I’m not saying they haven’t, but just saying ‘center vs winger’ doesn’t paint the full picture of their value within the league

Well, there's the fact that he's younger, played more and performed better at different levels. nyr2k2 pointed that out as well

 

[nyr2k2]

Look at arbitration. Say JEE and Lemieux were both headed there this year. The factors you can argue over are:

1. Overall performance, including official statistics
2. Overall games played
3. Length of service in NHL or with club
4. Overall contribution to the success or failure of the club
5. Special leadership or other non-quantifiable qualities
6. Prior-season performance from a comparable player
7. Compensation of a comparable player

So who would you say is superior in these categories?

1. Draw/Eriksson Ek, depending on how you look at it
2. Eriksson Ek
3. Eriksson Ek
4. Even? Eriksson Ek because he wasn't traded?
5. No idea, but JEE has worn a letter most of his pre-NHL career
6. We'd have to look
7. We'd have to look

Obviously this isn't what's happening now, but it's insight into what is considered valuable by the NHL. So if I had to award a salary to either player based on the arbitration criteria, I'm going to award more to JEE pretty easily.

 

[GAGLine]

the QO is based on total salary (base salary + signing bonus). but neither guy had a signing bonus...both of their ELC had slide years so they got paid the signing bonuses before they were in the NHL and had no signing bonus last year. they were both paid $832,500 last year

According to cap friendly, it is based on only base salary and not signing bonus.

Qualifying Offer Calculator - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

• The qualifying offer is calculated from the players base salary (NHL salary minus signing bonus), and at minimum must meet the seasons minimum salary requirements:
  • 110% of the base salary if the base salary is less than or equal to $660,000
  • 105% of the base salary if the base salary is greater than $660,000 or less than $1,000,000. However, this qualifying offer cannot exceed $1,000,000.
  • 100% of the base salary if the base salary is equal to or greater than $1,000,000.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

So many people making arguments assuming the lack of signatures as of Aug. 28 is attitudinal on behalf of ADA and Lemieux, when it is almost certainly procedural on behalf of both players and team...

 

[Fugazy]

Lemieux hasn’t done anything to deserve a dime more than his qualifying offer. He should put his head down and get back to work.

Rangers are in the position of power here. Lemieux doesn’t have much leverage at this point.