How skilled was Paul Kariya?

[Troubadour]

...Which is another way of saying that while Teemu was still adjusting to his new environment, Paul was running the show. Kariya clearly outscored Selänne from Feb. 6th onward. It wasn't until 1996-97 that Teemu regained his prime Winnipeg form and the two became the telepathic duo we remember. Plus Teemu too had some difficult seasons prior to that trade. His goalscoring in particular hadn't come near his rookie year until he was traded: he was pacing for less than half a goal per game for the third season in a row until he was paired with Kariya. In the long run, both players benefited from that trade.

Or -- that Kariya was the main benefactor.

At least once we base our theories on what we know rather than assume (because it actually happened):

Selanne posted good/great/phenomenal numbers before, with, and after Kariya, depending on his health, while Kariya without Selanne was Palffy on the Isles, at his actual best.

Also, they hit it off pretty much from the get-go and they already were one of the big stories in spring 96. Kariya scoring fifty was a big deal. No-one expected that (before the trade).

 

[Sampe from the 2000s]

Or -- that Kariya was the main benefactor.

At least once we base our theories on what we know rather than assume (because it actually happened):

Selanne posted good/great/phenomenal numbers before, with, and after Kariya, depending on his health, while Kariya without Selanne was Palffy on the Isles, at his actual best.

Also, they hit it off pretty much from the get-go and they already were one of the big stories in spring 96. Kariya scoring fifty was a big deal. No-one expected that (before the trade).

I do remember the hype (the claims of what happened), but the data (what actually happened) does not support it. Based on the data (the facts) it was Kariya who initially drove the play, and it was Teemu who played a facilitating role. Teemu did benefit from Paul's passes though, which is why his goalscoring at ES instantly improved. But Kariya had twice as many ES assists, more ES point, more primary assists, more primary points, and six game winners to Teemu's one. No doubt Paul was invigorated from the trade, but he also helped others score the most that spring.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Love the revisionist history on the Kariya / Selanne thing.

Like I always say in these threads, Kariya was better and still improving before the injuries started piling up. It sounds a bit crazy to say in comparison to Selanne, but Kariya was a more dynamic and rounded offensive player. As it turned out, Selanne had a better career and now people think he was better.

 

[authentic]

Love the revisionist history on the Kariya / Selanne thing.

Like I always say in these threads, Kariya was better and still improving before the injuries started piling up. It sounds a bit crazy to say in comparison to Selanne, but Kariya was a more dynamic and rounded offensive player. As it turned out, Selanne had a better career and now people think he was better.

I don’t disagree with this entirely but I just am not sure it’s a fact he was better than Selanne though. Selanne ultimately had a higher offensive peak before and during his time playing with Kariya, was better internationally, then had a better post-lockout career and peak after all their injuries despite being older.

 

[gary69]

Love the revisionist history on the Kariya / Selanne thing.

Like I always say in these threads, Kariya was better and still improving before the injuries started piling up. It sounds a bit crazy to say in comparison to Selanne, but Kariya was a more dynamic and rounded offensive player. As it turned out, Selanne had a better career and now people think he was better.

I remember reading some Selanne interviews from the Finnish press in the late 90s where he said that Kariya was a better player than him. Also remember seeing stories of him likewise admitting after Nagano that Bure was better than him as well at that time.

Of course injuries happened afterwards and Selanne finished his career much better than those two, to have a greater overall career.

 

[The Panther]

I would rate them about even at their respective bests, but of course Selanne had more top-level seasons and a longer career.

Anyway, in 1995-96, it can be seen that Kariya -- who was in only his first full NHL season -- was already reaching a 100-point scoring pace before Selanne was acquired. And we know what Selanne did in 1992-93. There is no doubt that both could be elite without the other.

Nashville Kariya deserves more love. Oh, and Kariya should have been on the 2006 Olympic team.

 

[Troubadour]

Love the revisionist history on the Kariya / Selanne thing.

Like I always say in these threads, Kariya was better and still improving before the injuries started piling up. It sounds a bit crazy to say in comparison to Selanne, but Kariya was a more dynamic and rounded offensive player. As it turned out, Selanne had a better career and now people think he was better.

I thought Selanne was better even then, for the most part. Of course there were stretches where Kariya played better, even long ones. I too thought he was gonna be better by 97, but in reality, his talent was overblown and expectations inflated due to Selanne.

I don’t disagree with this entirely but I just am not sure it’s a fact he was better than Selanne though. Selanne ultimately had a higher offensive peak before and during his time playing with Kariya, was better internationally, then had a better post-lockout career and peak after all their injuries despite being older.

He wasn't. Subjectively, anyone could prefer either of them, but objectively, nothing separated Kariya from Selanne to the extent that justifies kicking the door open and proclaiming Kariya better and anyone who disagrees a revisionist.

I do remember the hype (the claims of what happened), but the data (what actually happened) does not support it. Based on the data (the facts) it was Kariya who initially drove the play, and it was Teemu who played a facilitating role. Teemu did benefit from Paul's passes though, which is why his goalscoring at ES instantly improved. But Kariya had twice as many ES assists, more ES point, more primary assists, more primary points, and six game winners to Teemu's one. No doubt Paul was invigorated from the trade, but he also helped others score the most that spring.

If you look at Kariya's 95/96 season on a game to game basis, you will see that from the game one of the season till about December 6, he scored at a rate that was pretty much identical to the rate at which he scored from December 7 till February 6.

The first stretch was good enough for being the 13th best in the league, the second one was the 23rd best league-wide.

Then, something changed. Must have been the weather, haha.

If you actually go through the scoring logs, you will see that literally the same percentage of the goals scored by Selanne had Kariya with a primary assist as vice versa, the only exception being that Kariya had longer stretches of points that involved Selanne than Selanne had with Kariya involved. You will also note that at one point, Selanne had a primary assist on 5 Kariya's goals in a row.

What we know is that after Selanne trade, Kariya got better. And Selanne slightly worse.

None of which has anything to do with my original point -- that expectations of Kariya were inflated due to Selanne, which does not require Selanne to be the better player at all.

The league was never as devoid of talent as it would have needed to be for a guy like Kariya to be the most talented and the best player, and these are the superlatives he received for a while. Didn't make sense then, and it makes even less now, watching his highlights.

 

[authentic]

I thought Selanne was better even then, for the most part. Of course there were stretches where Kariya played better, even long ones. I too thought he was gonna be better by 97, but in reality, his talent was overblown and expectations inflated due to Selanne.



He wasn't. Subjectively, anyone could prefer either of them, but objectively, nothing separated Kariya from Selanne to the extent that justifies kicking the door open and proclaiming Kariya better and anyone who disagrees a revisionist.



If you look at Kariya's 95/96 season on a game to game basis, you will see that from the game one of the season till about December 6, he scored at a rate that was pretty much identical to the rate at which he scored from December 7 till February 6.

The first stretch was good enough for being the 13th best in the league, the second one was the 23rd best league-wide.

Then, something changed. Must have been the weather, haha.

If you actually go through the scoring logs, you will see that literally the same percentage of the goals scored by Selanne had Kariya with a primary assist as vice versa, the only exception being that Kariya had longer stretches of points that involved Selanne than Selanne had with Kariya involved. You will also note that at one point, Selanne had a primary assist on 5 Kariya's goals in a row.

What we know is that after Selanne trade, Kariya got better. And Selanne slightly worse.

None of which has anything to do with my original point -- that expectations of Kariya were inflated due to Selanne, which does not require Selanne to be the better player at all.

The league was never as devoid of talent as it would have needed to be for a guy like Kariya to be the most talented and the best player, and these are the superlatives he received for a while. Didn't make sense then, and it makes even less now, watching his highlights.

Kariya was the more exciting player. Both were equal at best during most of their time together but really Selanne was the better player if you had to pick one, stats don’t lie and neither brought anything substantial beyond offense.

 

[Gerulaitis]

From what I remember,:
Kariya was more skilled.
Selanne was more efficient