Speculation: Roster Building Thread III (2021 Offseason) - “Simple Jack”, "Will over Skill", "Drury in a Hurry"?

[Machinehead]

Jones played the right side for us all season because we didnt have any RD depth when Trouba went down.

Again, "Generic good vet LD" is gonna be hard to argue vs for one player, so give me an example of 1 or 2 vet LD that would be available for Strome?

If Dumba is lost to expansion it would be Shea Theodore 2.0. Big mistake to let an opportunity like this go by. He's an analytics darling too, you'd love him

In every post, you imply how worthless Strome is but you also think we're getting Dumba for him.

Yes, we could use more depth but Dumba isn't depth. He plays 22:17 a game.

If he's that coveted, somebody will offer more than Strome.

It's just a silly idea.

 

[Boris Zubov]

He had surgery after his rookie season (2014) on his right knee and again in 2016-17. He had his left knee's ACL and MCL surgically repaired last year.

And he proved he was healthy this year. Is his injury history is something to consider when negotiating a long term deal, absolutely. Is it a deal breaker...not to me. Have the doctors check him out & see if he looks ok. If they find a degenerative condition, sure walk away.

You may or may not remember that Messier had knee issues before the Rangers traded for him at age 30. That's where being in NYC with the best medical system in the western hemisphere really has its advantages.

 

[egelband]

True but Eichel is also a baby, doesn't care about defense, can't win a faceoff, and puts up half his points standing where Panarin does on the powerplay. We're gonna have Panarin there, see, that's the thing.

Yeah. I think he’d be great...on the Kings or Wild.

 

[Machinehead]

Yeah. I think he’d be great...on the Kings or Wild.

That makes a little bit more sense. Those teams need gamebreaking skill.

If we were starved for pure production and finesse, then yeah, I'm all over Eichel.

We have that and just made sweeping changes in the organization trying to diversify that.

 

[egelband]

Eichel as a rookie was none of those things.
We’re seeing what eichel looks like after 4 years of Buffalo. How much does his attitude and game change in a winning team? How much did O’Reilly get better once he got to stl.

This is the only hope. But even if so, not much intestinal fortitude shown. Plenty of good players have toiled on bad teams. Then when the team turns it around it’s all that much more satisfying. That’s the kind of guy I’m looking for.

 

[Calad]

In every post, you imply how worthless Strome is but you also think we're getting Dumba for him.

Yes, we could use more depth but Dumba isn't depth. He plays 22:17 a game.

If he's that coveted, somebody will offer more than Strome.

It's just a silly idea.

I disagreed with you and said he's not our best trade chip, I didn't say he worthless. He's a 27 yo center on an expiring deal that is productive offensively

Minnestoa is stuck between a rock and hard place. Suter, Spurgeon, and Brodin all have NMC, so in all likelyhood unless they can convince Suter to waive Dumba will have to be exposed. They could also throw assets at Seattle to take another player (i.e. Victor Rask) but seeing how Dumba will be a UFA in 2 seasons theyd be better served using him to address a hole they already have in the lineup/ They have JEE and really nothing else as far as NHL level centers, and they're a playoff contending team now. If a team is offering a better center for Dumba before expansion draft than Strome then I'm sure they'd do that instead, but there aren't any teams that have a center available and an extra defnseman protection slot. A good GM should be opportunistic, and this is a great opportunity.

Its really easy to generically argue "someone else will offer more" or "theres a better target than dumba" but when I prompt you to bring up a specific example your retort is something to the effect of "But he plays 22 minutes a night hes not depth!", as if somehow trading for a player that plays 22 minutes a night is a bad idea??

 

[Calad]

And he proved he was healthy this year. Is his injury history is something to consider when negotiating a long term deal, absolutely. Is it a deal breaker...not to me. Have the doctors check him out & see if he looks ok. If they find a degenerative condition, sure walk away.

You may or may not remember that Messier had knee issues before the Rangers traded for him at age 30. That's where being in NYC with the best medical system in the western hemisphere really has its advantages.

Trading for him as a rental is just an all around bad idea. The assumption on acquiring him would be as a long term solution at C here. I am very wary of signing a player long term that has extensive history of knee problems.

This was 25 years ago, and the NHL is a much faster game now then it was then. Players that aren't top talents don't have an impressive track record past 30 in recent years, regardless of injury history.

 

[Machinehead]

I disagreed with you and said he's not our best trade chip, I didn't say he worthless. He's a 27 yo center on an expiring deal that is productive offensively

Minnestoa is stuck between a rock and hard place. Suter, Spurgeon, and Brodin all have NMC, so in all likelyhood unless they can convince Suter to waive Dumba will have to be exposed. They could also throw assets at Seattle to take another player (i.e. Victor Rask) but seeing how Dumba will be a UFA in 2 seasons theyd be better served using him to address a hole they already have in the lineup/ They have JEE and really nothing else as far as NHL level centers, and they're a playoff contending team now. If a team is offering a better center for Dumba before expansion draft than Strome then I'm sure they'd do that instead, but there aren't any teams that have a center available and an extra defnseman protection slot. A good GM should be opportunistic, and this is a great opportunity.

Its really easy to generically argue "someone else will offer more" or "theres a better target than dumba" but when I prompt you to bring up a specific example your retort is something to the effect of "But he plays 22 minutes a night hes not depth!", as if somehow trading for a player that plays 22 minutes a night is a bad idea??

Because it's impossible to just wildly speculate on made-up trades. You might as well go on NHL.com and sort by position.

I don't know...Brayden McNabb. Vegas have too many defensemen and not enough centers. Would that ever happen? Is there any indication that would ever happen? I don't know, I made it up. It's probably closer in value than Matt Dumba.

No, it's never a good idea to add good players. But we've had a salary cap for 15 years and somehow people still don't understand that what you acquire has to bring commensurate value for what you spent on it. Dumba is a #1 RHD and we're only discussing this because Minnesota handed out dumb NMC's.

And I guarantee you they'll just throw something at Seattle to leave Dumba alone. So our offer would have to be really strong, and you're not getting commensurate value out of a RHD when you already have the best RHD on the f***ing planet. Best case scenario, we end up with Trouba on our third pair with a $56m contract.

It's just silly. Completely off the wall. I feel like I'm seriously entertaining a bernmeister proposal here.

 

[Fitzy]

Even if we were ready, there's probably better things we can do with our assets than get a RHD when we have Fox playing 24 minutes and you're splitting the other 36 with Trouba.

I'm not as anti Trouba, but the point is well seen- I'd rather age out Trouba in a few years than deal his replacement and regret it later.

We'd prefer Kreids and Trouba's NMC go to NTC sooner, but that's the cost of business.

 

[Machinehead]

I'm not as anti Trouba, but the point is well seen- I'd rather age out Trouba in a few years than deal his replacement and regret it later.

We'd prefer Kreids and Trouba's NMC go to NTC sooner, but that's the cost of business.

Trouba is a good, solid top 4 defenseman, but he's actually a great example of the last time we did something that didn't make sense but "hey, it's an opportunity!"

Like, yeah, let's just ignore organizational depth (which was strong at RHD even then, before the DeAngelo debacle) because the Jets made this guy available.

One Adam Fox later, we wish we hadn't. Not because Trouba is bad, but again, because of commensurate value.

 

[jay from jersey]

Trouba is a good, solid top 4 defenseman, but he's actually a great example of the last time we did something that didn't make sense but "hey, it's an opportunity!"

Like, yeah, let's just ignore organizational depth (which was strong at RHD even then, before the DeAngelo debacle) because the Jets made this guy available.

One Adam Fox later, we wish we hadn't. Not because Trouba is bad, but again, because of commensurate value.

I’m not paying Danault or Hertl what they are going to be looking for. Both guys are looking at their retirement deals, same as Zibby. We can debate what type of center we need til the cows come home. But danault turning down 30 million from a hometown team is very telling.
Detroit isn’t trading Larkin. He’s another hometown boy. He’s also Werenskis best friend and most likely the sole reason he’s going to bolt from the jackets to come home and play with his pail in Detroit.
Arizona isn’t going to deal a guy like Dvorak either IMO. We have no help coming internally from our farm.

 

[Machinehead]

I’m not paying Danault or Hertl what they are going to be looking for. Both guys are looking at their retirement deals, same as Zibby. We can debate what type of center we need til the cows come home. But danault turning down 30 million from a hometown team is very telling.

I got bad news for you, folks: our organizational depth at center is garbage.

If we want to compete any time before Lafreniere turns 25, we're overpaying for somebody.

It's just a matter of who it is.

 

[jay from jersey]

I got bad news for you, folks: our organizational depth at center is garbage.

If we want to compete any time before Lafreniere turns 25, we're overpaying for somebody.

It's just a matter of who it is.

I agree 100%. I think it comes down to Zibby. He’s basically the devil you know. Know what he can do here. Just pray his game doesn’t fall off a cliff in the final 2-3 years or that contract becomes an albatross.
Eichel, basically a younger faster version of Zibby. Not going to go point by point
Or they sign/ trade a veteran stop gap guy for 2-3 years and kick the can down the road until they can trade for a young C of their liking, whether it be a blockbuster deal or someone that asks out like the PLD situation.
I don’t see guys like Dvorak or Larkin being available. Larkin is a hometown hero and is going to be a big reason why Werenski comes home to play.
Currently we have no one to fill the spot internally, and I don’t think there’s a shot in hell Drury gives a guys like Danault around 7x6 7x7 what he’s asking plus guaranteeing top 2 line playing time.
If they want Hertl, I’d imagine he’d be signed as a UFA rather then traded for. No point in rangers giving up first rd picks and prospects to get him here to maybe make the playoffs. More then likely sharks deal him at next years trade deadline and he test free agency after the playoffs

 

[Machinehead]

Of the four of them, Eichel would be a distant 4th for me.

He's a great player, but again, it's all about value. If you're paying Jack Eichel, you're paying for him to score a bunch of points on the powerplay. That's why he makes 10 million. It's like MLB hitters getting paid for homeruns.

The thing that constitutes 30-40% of his salary is a thing we don't need.

He's Panarin who takes faceoffs. Would I like another Panarin? On a team with no other flaws, yes. In a league with no cap, yes. We have neither of those luxuries.

And it would be great if Eichel were an all-worlder who's also playing great defense and/or is a physical force, and the production is gravy, but he isn't.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Trading for him as a rental is just an all around bad idea. The assumption on acquiring him would be as a long term solution at C here. I am very wary of signing a player long term that has extensive history of knee problems.

This was 25 years ago, and the NHL is a much faster game now then it was then. Players that aren't top talents don't have an impressive track record past 30 in recent years, regardless of injury history.

Who said anything about renting him. His knee is either healthy or he isn't. If it's not, hard pass.

Mark Messier was one of the strongest skaters in the history of the sport, 30 years later or not, so my point stands.

 

[Calad]

Because it's impossible to just wildly speculate on made-up trades. You might as well go on NHL.com and sort by position.

You do realize what thread you're in right? We are in the off season, the next meaningful event for the team is the expansion draft and what's leading up to it. We're here to discuss how to improve the roster. Being completely dismissive of points without contributing anything of substance isn't constructive in any manner.

I don't know...Brayden McNabb. Vegas have too many defensemen and not enough centers. Would that ever happen? Is there any indication that would ever happen? I don't know, I made it up. It's probably closer in value than Matt Dumba.

No, it's never a good idea to add good players. But we've had a salary cap for 15 years and somehow people still don't understand that what you acquire has to bring commensurate value for what you spent on it. Dumba is a #1 RHD and we're only discussing this because Minnesota handed out dumb NMC's.

And I guarantee you they'll just throw something at Seattle to leave Dumba alone. So our offer would have to be really strong, and you're not getting commensurate value out of a RHD when you already have the best RHD on the f***ing planet. Best case scenario, we end up with Trouba on our third pair with a $56m contract.

His contract is for 2 more seasons. We have tons off cap space this year. Worst case scenario we can trade him the following off season or let him walk and have whoever is left in our farm take his place when ready. Acquiring him does nothing to hurt our long term cap outlook, and in the short term greatly improves our depth and skill on the back end. Teams around the league are envious of teams like Carolina who can roll 6 D with their stocked backend but somehow it would hamstring us and be a waste of assets.

It's just silly. Completely off the wall. I feel like I'm seriously entertaining a bernmeister proposal here.

That's cute. Youve been around for 10 years and still act like a stubborn child.

 

[Machinehead]

You do realize what thread you're in right? We are in the off season, the next meaningful event for the team is the expansion draft and what's leading up to it. We're here to discuss how to improve the roster. Being completely dismissive of points without contributing anything of substance isn't constructive in any manner.



His contract is for 2 more seasons. We have tons off cap space this year. Worst case scenario we can trade him the following off season or let him walk and have whoever is left in our farm take his place when ready. Acquiring him does nothing to hurt our long term cap outlook, and in the short term greatly improves our depth and skill on the back end. Teams around the league are envious of teams like Carolina who can roll 6 D with their stocked backend but somehow it would hamstring us and be a waste of assets.



That's cute. Youve been around for 10 years and still act like a stubborn child.

You proposed a silly trade, I told you it was silly, and you're just like "yeah, well what's your proposal?!"

I don't have one! I didn't make one!

You can just say no to a trade without there being an alternative offer, especially when there's no hole to fill. I'm very happy to Adam Fox play even more minutes.

 

[jay from jersey]

Of the four of them, Eichel would be a distant 4th for me.

He's a great player, but again, it's all about value. If you're paying Jack Eichel, you're paying for him to score a bunch of points on the powerplay. That's why he makes 10 million. It's like MLB hitters getting paid for homeruns.

The thing that constitutes 30-40% of his salary is a thing we don't need.

He's Panarin who takes faceoffs. Would I like another Panarin? On a team with no other flaws, yes. In a league with no cap, yes. We have neither of those luxuries.

And it would be great if Eichel were an all-worlder who's also playing great defense and/or is a physical force, and the production is gravy, but he isn't.

The problem is, they are going to sign Zibby for the same coin. If Eichel is healthy, I’d rather take to younger guy. Most teams make up is
1st line scoring line
2nd line scoring line
3rd liner checking line
4th line energy/ grind it out line

the way we are built is we have enough talent for essentially 2 first lines and a 2nd and 3rd line that fits the above criteria.
The problem is our 4th line has no identity at the moment. It’s not an energy line, shut down line, grind it out along the boards line. It’s a hodgepodge of 1 high end talented prospect and 2 journeymen who played the most in their Career under quinn.
Say for argument sake,
Eichel line with LaF on Lw.- potential for some real damage to be done. Eichel can carry that line if need be, he’s a very underrated passer and I think with LaF a shot that can be a deadly combo.
Panarin line- sane thing panarin is a game breaker capable of taking over the game. You can basically put anyone with him and he’ll play better.
Our 3rd line with Kreids and Chytil can work well with a 3rd component.
Our 4 th line has no identity at all. It’s a hodgepodge and they need to figure out what their role is going to be.

 

[Machinehead]

The problem is, they are going to sign Zibby for the same coin. If Eichel is healthy, I’d rather take to younger guy. Most teams make up is
1st line scoring line
2nd line scoring line
3rd liner checking line
4th line energy/ grind it out line

If Zibanejad wants more money than Eichel, I will personally tell him to get the f*** out Drury's office and never speak to us again regardless of who else we bring in.

 

[Calad]

Who said anything about renting him. His knee is either healthy or he isn't. If it's not, hard pass.

Mark Messier was one of the strongest skaters in the history of the sport, 30 years later or not, so my point stands.

You mentioned that " his injury history something to consider when negotiating a long term deal". I was addressing that, reiterating that acquiring him would be for long term purposes. there's no sense in renting him I agree, it's a given so it's kind of a moot point and not worth discussing that aspect.

He played 1 season after having a full 12 months to recover from his surgery since SJ wasn't in the bubble last year. I didn't watch much of the sharks this year so I can't speak to how he looked, but his longevity worries me. No sense in being the dead horse here though, you aren't concerned about his injury history, I am. We can agree to disagree here.

 

[Calad]

You proposed a silly trade, I told you it was silly, and you're just like "yeah, well what's your proposal?!"

I don't have one! I didn't make one!

You can just say no to a trade without there being an alternative offer, especially when there's no hole to fill. I'm very happy to Adam Fox play even more minutes.

It's silly because you said so? Guess I should take your word for it, you seem so sure of yourself

 

[Boris Zubov]

You mentioned that " his injury history something to consider when negotiating a long term deal". I was addressing that, reiterating that acquiring him would be for long term purposes. there's no sense in renting him I agree, it's a given so it's kind of a moot point and not worth discussing that aspect.

He played 1 season after having a full 12 months to recover from his surgery since SJ wasn't in the bubble last year. I didn't watch much of the sharks this year so I can't speak to how he looked, but his longevity worries me. No sense in being the dead horse here though, you aren't concerned about his injury history, I am. We can agree to disagree here.

I'd be lying if I didn't think injuries were a concern, but nobody can predict this stuff even for guys with no injury history. I do know the guy is built like a tank & looked like his old self in the games I watched him play against Vegas. He was almost a PPG player this year on a really bad team.

I would trust the Ranger medical staff to perform their due diligence & act accordingly.

 

[Machinehead]

It's silly because you said so? Guess I should take your word for it, you seem so sure of yourself

It's silly because you're giving up assets for a player that has the same role as a player we currently employ, and said player is the best in the world at that role.

Before you yell at me again, I just want you to stop and think about this. We have Adam Fox. We have Jacob Trouba. Before he ran himself off the team, we were likely trading DeAngelo anyway because we had nowhere to put him. Dumba has a M-NTC. He's not coming to a team that doesn't have a role for him.

I get it, it's good to be creative, and it is, I will certainly give you that. That being said, it makes no sense for the Wild, it makes no sense for the Rangers, and I don't understand why you're talking this so personally.

 

[Calad]

I'd be lying if I didn't think injuries were a concern, but nobody can predict this stuff even for guys with no injury history. I do know the guy is built like a tank & looked like his old self in the games I watched him play against Vegas. He was almost a PPG player this year on a really bad team.

I would trust the Ranger medical staff to perform their due diligence & act accordingly.

Agree with you there, but I do wonder how much they are able to look into this while he is SJ's property.

 

[jay from jersey]

If Zibanejad wants more money than Eichel, I will personally tell him to get the f*** out Drury's office and never speak to us again regardless of who else we bring in.

More then likely it’s going to be 9.5-10. Same. This is his retirement deal he’s not going to do us any favors.
I see Eichel as a panarin that can take face offs as well. I think his speed would be a welcome upgrade at the position. I think he and LaF could have magic chemistry. Jack is a pretty underrated passer. I think the rangers ability to roll top 2 lines of some combination of
LaF- Eichel-???
Panarin-??kakko/Kravtsov
Would be pretty impossible for other teams to stop
Zibby might be the better pure goal scorer, but I think Eichel’s ability to take over games and control the pace of play is far better then what Zibby can do. I watched a lot of Eichel when he’s healthy. He’s very talented and when he’s on impossible to contain. I think he would be the better center for LaF then Zibby would be as well.