Speculation: Roster Building Thread III (2019/2020) - Tick Tock

[Fitzy]

There's certainly a lack of centers in that group.

Agreed. Still,

Zibanejad
Strome
Namestnikov
McKegg
Nieves

Is five without any of the younger kids. I really think that the depth on wing this season will facilitate one of Strome or Names moving to center, for at least a solid part of the year.

 

[Leetch3]

Would it be a worse option than ****ing Greg McKegg?

considering that boyle is likely asking for almost 4 times as much $$ as mckegg got, yes it would be a worse option

 

[NoQuitInNewMexico]

Greg McKegg is a nice veteran addition to our bottom 6.

 

[Levitate]

My argument isn't that the Rangers are competing right now, but there's certainly a window with our best prospects on ELC that they would be wise to get something out of. I never said it had to be right now. That window would be extended if they didn't spend this summer.

More importantly, "letting the kids play" means that you're willing to demote the veterans when the kids have outplayed them. It does not mean giving the kids nobody to compete with and throwing them into roles they've given no indication they're ready for.

What we did to Brett Howden last year was inexcusable and straight out of the Buffalo/Edmonton Bible of Development.

It is never ok to go into the season with fewer players than you need. I don't care if you're 0-82.

I'm of the opinion that you try Chytil in the 2C role. You have to let him try at some point. If he can't hack it, then run Strome out there. It's not ideal but the team isn't competing next season regardless of whether Chytil, Strome, or Brassard is the 2C, in which case why worry about whether they signed Brassard or are running Stome out there, either one is probably gone next year anyways

 

[Machinehead]

Agreed. Still,

Zibanejad
Strome
Namestnikov
McKegg
Nieves

Is five without any of the younger kids. I really think that the depth on wing this season will facilitate one of Strome or Names moving to center, for at least a solid part of the year.

Namestnikov at center makes me wanna light my tongue on fire, but I suppose it's ok as a stop gap if the season, as expected, doesn't go anywhere.

 

[ohbaby]

He’s right.

Staal’s on ice effects are overwhelmingly negative.

I'm sticking to my guns. I don't know how metrics evaluates board battles, gap control or breaking up plays with a good stick in passing lanes.,... or taking away the stick of those parked in front,.... but that is what the coach values, and why he played 19 minutes a game last year. It is very hard to measure one's defensive abilities through stats alone. I used to make rosters for EA Sports NHL and it was very difficult to judge 600 player's defensive awareness through stats.

Has Staal slipped a bit. Yes. He doesn't go head to head with Ovie as much as he used to. But he is still fairly reliable.

 

[Fitzy]

Panarin-Zibanejad-Buchnevich
Kreider-Namestnikov-Kakko
Lemieux-Strome-Chytil
Beleskey-McKegg-Fast
Nieves

Skjei-Trouba
Staal-DeAngelo
Smith-???

All with Howden, Kravtsov, Fox and Andersson in the AHL (Which I think is immensely conservative)

The only hole is on defense if none of Hajek, Fox, Lindgren, or Rykov are ready.

 

[ohbaby]

Not once. I just really like colorful charts,,.

Good one. LOL

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I'm sticking to my guns. I don't know how metrics evaluates board battles, gap control or breaking up plays with a good stick in passing lanes.,... or taking away the stick of those parked in front,.... but that is what the coach values, and why he played 19 minutes a game last year. It is very hard to measure one's defensive abilities through stats alone. I used to make rosters for EA Sports NHL and it was very difficult to judge 600 player's defensive awareness through stats.

Has Staal slipped a bit. Yes. He doesn't go head to head with Ovie as much as he used to. But he is still fairly reliable.

A bit?

He's slipped a TON.

If he did those things as well as you think he did, all of the goals against/chances against metrics wouldn't be as bad as they are.

Staal defending in the NZ is okay if a guy chooses to try and carry it. IF they chip and chase he's a dead duck.

Thats before even getting to his ability to move it out (lack there of really) and his tendency to chase players around.

 

[nyr2k2]

Panarin-Zibanejad-Buchnevich
Kreider-Namestnikov-Kakko
Lemieux-Strome-Chytil
Beleskey-McKegg-Fast
Nieves

Skjei-Trouba
Staal-DeAngelo
Smith-???

All with Howden, Kravtsov, Fox and Andersson in the AHL (Which I think is immensely conservative)

The only hole is on defense if none of Hajek, Fox, Lindgren, or Rykov are ready.

I would swap out Beleskey for Howden or Andersson who would be my 3C. Strome to 2C, just to see if he can do it.

Otherwise, I'm on board with all that.

 

[Fitzy]

I would swap out Beleskey for Howden or Andersson who would be my 3C. Strome to 2C, just to see if he can do it.

Otherwise, I'm on board with all that.

That works. It's not what I expect to see- but evidence that we can afford to shelter some of the kids if need be and still field a full lineup.

 

[Levitate]

I'm sticking to my guns. I don't know how metrics evaluates board battles, gap control or breaking up plays with a good stick in passing lanes.,... or taking away the stick of those parked in front,.... but that is what the coach values, and why he played 19 minutes a game last year. It is very hard to measure one's defensive abilities through stats alone. I used to make rosters for EA Sports NHL and it was very difficult to judge 600 player's defensive awareness through stats.

Has Staal slipped a bit. Yes. He doesn't go head to head with Ovie as much as he used to. But he is still fairly reliable.

"Metrics" measure the results of that stuff. Board battles, gap control, breaking up plays, etc, don't matter much if the end result is that you're always giving up a ton of shots against and are getting scored on a lot without contributing in the offensive zone.

If Staal was actually good at all those things he probably wouldn't measure out so abysmally when we look at his actual on ice contributions.

The NHL has long deferred to veterans even when they were obviously not playing well, this unfortunately hasn't changed much.

 

[ohbaby]

Marc Staal has been bad going back to when Stralman left, my point being that he was bad even when he had a "supporting cast" like McDonagh and Girardi.

Now I really don't know what games you're watching. But let's stick to last year. Of these things I mentioned "board battles, gap control, breaking up plays with a good stick in passing lanes.,... or taking away the stick of those parked in front" if I had seen him play poorly in these areas, trust me, I'd be with you 100%, but I haven't, and neither have the coaches,... otherwise he would be watching from the press box.

 

[Machinehead]

I'm sticking to my guns. I don't know how metrics evaluates board battles, gap control or breaking up plays with a good stick in passing lanes.,... or taking away the stick of those parked in front,.... but that is what the coach values, and why he played 19 minutes a game last year. It is very hard to measure one's defensive abilities through stats alone. I used to make rosters for EA Sports NHL and it was very difficult to judge 600 player's defensive awareness through stats.

Has Staal slipped a bit. Yes. He doesn't go head to head with Ovie as much as he used to. But he is still fairly reliable.

They invented metrics that evaluate those things like six years ago.

 

[Machinehead]

Now I really don't know what games you're watching. But let's stick to last year. Of these things I mentioned "board battles, gap control, breaking up plays with a good stick in passing lanes.,... or taking away the stick of those parked in front" if I had seen him play poorly in these areas, trust me, I'd be with you 100%, but I haven't, and neither have the coaches,... otherwise he would be watching from the press box.

If the hurts our goal differential every single year, explain to me why we care if he's good at those things.

 

[ohbaby]

"Metrics" measure the results of that stuff. Board battles, gap control, breaking up plays, etc, don't matter much if the end result is that you're always giving up a ton of shots against and are getting scored on a lot without contributing in the offensive zone.

If Staal was actually good at all those things he probably wouldn't measure out so abysmally when we look at his actual on ice contributions.

The NHL has long deferred to veterans even when they were obviously not playing well, this unfortunately hasn't changed much.

Three things wrong with your thinking here. The so called "results" of that stuff relies on the performance of all five skaters on the ice. Not just one.

Two: "don't matter much if the end result is that you're always giving up a ton of shots against and are getting scored on" Again a result of all five players on the ice. To evaluate an individual performance that "stuff' I mentioned is all that matters. But everyone needs to buy in.

Three: "he probably wouldn't measure out so abysmally when we look at his actual on ice contributions." But you are not literally looking at his actual on ice contributions. You are looking at statistics that require 5 or 4 players on ice to gather results.

Also the coach would have pulled him in a heartbeat if he was playing as bad as you say. The "deferred to veterans" is a bunch of bull.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Now I really don't know what games you're watching. But let's stick to last year. Of these things I mentioned "board battles, gap control, breaking up plays with a good stick in passing lanes.,... or taking away the stick of those parked in front" if I had seen him play poorly in these areas, trust me, I'd be with you 100%, but I haven't, and neither have the coaches,... otherwise he would be watching from the press box.

I'm almost certain that him playing has nothing to do with how "well" he has performed.

He loses most of the board battles he actually gets involved in btw. You remember the plays that he breaks up with his stick but don't remember the ones that end up resulting in something significant because he's out of position (which happened a ton.)

He's a bad defenseman who has steadily gotten worse. 2nd half Staal was arguably the worst regular defenseman in the league.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Three things wrong with your thinking here. The so called "results" of that stuff relies on the performance of all five skaters on the ice. Not just one.

Two: "don't matter much if the end result is that you're always giving up a ton of shots against and are getting scored on" Again a result of all five players on the ice. To evaluate an individual performance that "stuff' I mentioned is all that matters. But everyone needs to buy in.

Three: "he probably wouldn't measure out so abysmally when we look at his actual on ice contributions." But you are not literally looking at his actual on ice contributions. You are looking at statistics that require 5 or 4 players on ice to gather results.

Also the coach would have pulled him in a heartbeat if he was playing as bad as you say. The "deferred to veterans" is a bunch of bull.

Yes but the statistical numbers for every single player who got significant ice time last season were better with out Staal out there than with him out there.

It's been that way for a while now.

 

[Levitate]

Three things wrong with your thinking here. The so called "results" of that stuff relies on the performance of all five skaters on the ice. Not just one.

Eh, wrong, they have methods to evaluate the individual against his teammates and Staal grades out poorly. His partners have to bring his play up, not the other way around, this is measurable at this point.

Two: "don't matter much if the end result is that you're always giving up a ton of shots against and are getting scored on" Again a result of all five players on the ice. To evaluate an individual performance that "stuff' I mentioned is all that matters. But everyone needs to buy in.

This is the same argument as your point 1, but again, these things are measurable. If Staal was great at gap control, breaking up plays, preventing chances in front of the net, etc. it'd show up in his metrics compared to his teammates. If everyone else was terrible but he was good and his metrics were being dragged down by his teammates, we'd still see it reflected in his comparisons to teammates and his contributions on the ice compared to when he's off the ice. Unfortuantely, the stats say that his play drags his partners down, rather than the other way around.

Three: "he probably wouldn't measure out so abysmally when we look at his actual on ice contributions." But you are not literally looking at his actual on ice contributions. You are looking at statistics that require 5 or 4 players on ice to gather results.

Still the same argument.

Also the coach would have pulled him in a heartbeat if he was playing as bad as you say. The "deferred to veterans" is a bunch of bull.

Well I did mention that the Rangers LD depth is abysmal and he was the only vet behind Skjei for the most part. At any rate this is an appeal to authority rather than an argument about Staal's play

 

[NYSPORTS]

This thread sucks now. Awesome stuff.

Let's get these two RFAs signed and start the season so people can S.T.F.U. until our first two-game skid.

Wait until they label Kakko and company busts if they don’t produce like veterans.

 

[Levitate]

like I even have a bit of a soft spot for Staal. I think he could have been a real stalwart D for a long time if he hadn't had those injuries.

But as much as I want to think that he's still providing "good D" and "he just isn't good at offense", all of the signs point to him just not being good anymore.

Ideally next year would be Skjei, Hajek/Rykov, Staal by the time we're a few months in. He should settle as the 3D until his contract is up. I think that's a "realistic" idea for what should happen (I don't think he'll get benched unless he reallllllly screws up), but he'll still probably be the 2D unless someone really forces the Rangers hand

 

[ohbaby]

If the hurts our goal differential every single year, explain to me why we care if he's good at those things.

I guess you mean "if it hurts" right? There was a reason why Skjei, Smith and DeAngelo were healthy scratches last year,... and it wasn't due to their metrics. But you go ahead and blame Staal for our goal differential.

Defense is a team effort, everyone needs to buy in. Our forwards missed assignments when backchecking, our D-men made poor decisions,... I could go on and on why our goal differential has sucked the last few years.

 

[Machinehead]

I guess you mean "if it hurts" right? There was a reason why Skjei, Smith and DeAngelo were healthy scratches last year,... and it wasn't due to their metrics. But you go ahead and blame Staal for our goal differential.

Defense is a team effort, everyone needs to buy in. Our forwards missed assignments when backchecking, our D-men made poor decisions,... I could go on and on why our goal differential has sucked the last few years.

6 out of the last 7 seasons, our goal differential is worse with Staal on the ice than off.

And we're not talking about a little bit. In 5 of the 6 negative years, he's a standard deviation or two below replacement level.

It isn't some metric or whatever, it's cold hard goals.

 

[kovazub94]

I'm almost certain that him playing has nothing to do with how "well" he has performed.

He loses most of the board battles he actually gets involved in btw. You remember the plays that he breaks up with his stick but don't remember the ones that end up resulting in something significant because he's out of position (which happened a ton.)

He's a bad defenseman who has steadily gotten worse. 2nd half Staal was arguably the worst regular defenseman in the league.

The only “reasonable” argument for why players like Staal are still in the lineup is that there are no metric to measure these players contribution / impact of performance on the rest of the lineup when they leave the ice. Don’t want to insults anyone but it kind of goes along the lines of “our brain limited capacity are unable to perceive proofs that god exist therefore we need faith”.

 

[ohbaby]

like I even have a bit of a soft spot for Staal.
But as much as I want to think that he's still providing "good D" and "he just isn't good at offense", all of the signs point to him just not being good anymore.

That's the problem the Rangers have. We have too many offensive D-men and not enough who are strong defenders. Skjei took like 5 steps back last year. He lost his way. He was not the strong defender we used to know. He needs to up his game big time. DeAngelo needs to continue to improve defensively if he wants to stay in the line up full time. Not just the first two periods. Smith has never been consistent. I think they will let him go. The rookies have a tall order while learning the game. Our blueline will suffer this year. And with rookies forwards up front, they will not get much help.