Speculation: Roster Building Thread II (2022-23): The Puck is Prepared to be Mounted

[huerter]

Who is that player cutting to the middle ice and playing around the crease? I dont recognize him

Al Trautwig

 

[Avery16]

Holy f***ing shit, Tortorella LEARNED something!?

"Let me put it to you this way. My experience, back in '16, when I was asked a question about the flag... 'If a player sits [for the anthem] what would you do?' and I said, 'They would sit the rest of the game.' I was wrong. I learned a lot through that experience. My feelings towards any type of protest to the flag, during the anthem, it disgusts me. To this day, it disgusts me. It shouldn't be done. Those are my feelings; I can't push those feelings onto someone else. So, I was wrong in saying that back then.

I don't know what to do with this information.

John Tortorella not concerned on Ivan Provorov's decision splitting Philadelphia Flyers | TSN

 

[LORDE]

Well, that's that! Roll credits. The experts have spoken! He'll never break 5 goals in his career, 19 EV goals last year was fake news, let's pack it up. Nothing to see here. Hahahaha.

This adds so much to the convo. Thank you.

It didn't answer my question... but thanks.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

To ANA
Panarin

To EDM
McTavish
Chytil
Schneider
2 NYR 1sts

To NYR
McDavid

Let us expand:

To ANA
Panarin
Poolparty
Broberg

To EDM
McTavish
Lafreniere
Schneider
Erik Karlsson(25% Retained)
2024 NYR 1st
2025 NYR 1st
2024 ANA 1st

To SJ
Chytil
Kravstov
2023 NYR 1st
2023 EDM 2nd
Jones

To NYR
McDavid
Meier(extended)

 

[duhmetreE]

Let us expand:

To ANA
Panarin
Poolparty
Broberg

To EDM
McTavish
Lafreniere
Schneider
Erik Karlsson(25% Retained)
2024 NYR 1st
2025 NYR 1st
2024 ANA 1st

To SJ
Chytil
Kravstov
2023 NYR 1st
2023 EDM 2nd
Jones

To NYR
McDavid
Meier(extended)

I don't think Poolparty has the value you think he does

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

I don't think Poolparty has the value you think he does

I just wanted to write "poolparty"

 

[Fitzy]

The difference is that even if Kakko levels as a 40 point guy, his all around game makes him an amazing middle 6 winger.

If Laf tops out at 40 points, he doesn't offer anything else to the lineup. Like Vesey's first tour here when he didn't know how to play NHL defense.

I don't think they should 'give up' on Laf any more than we should give up on Kravtsov- we need to get production from cost controlled RFA players- and so we just have to be patient and hope that, like with Chytil and Buchnevich, our patience is rewarded.

JT Miller
Kreider
Buch
Chytil

All these good forwards struggled in their first 1-2 NHL seasons. Miller and Kreider went down to the AHL, Buch scored but was a black hole in every other element of his game early on. Chytil's gotten so much better defensively and on the transition.

But unless he completely reimagines his game, Laf is only going to be useful to a team if he's scoring 55+. NYR cut ties with Zherdev for free after a 54 point season because he was absolutely useless otherwise.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

The difference is that even if Kakko levels as a 40 point guy, his all around game makes him an amazing middle 6 winger.

If Laf tops out at 40 points, he doesn't offer anything else to the lineup. Like Vesey's first tour here when he didn't know how to play NHL defense.

I don't think they should 'give up' on Laf any more than we should give up on Kravtsov- we need to get production from cost controlled RFA players- and so we just have to be patient and hope that, like with Chytil and Buchnevich, our patience is rewarded.

JT Miller
Kreider
Buch
Chytil

All these good forwards struggled in their first 1-2 NHL seasons. Miller and Kreider went down to the AHL, Buch scored but was a black hole in every other element of his game early on. Chytil's gotten so much better defensively and on the transition.

But unless he completely reimagines his game, Laf is only going to be useful to a team if he's scoring 55+. NYR cut ties with Zherdev for free after a 54 point season because he was absolutely useless otherwise.

I think the Zherdev comparison falls apart dramatically in one catergory...Attitude. Zherdev had a bad attitude and was unwilling to work on his game. He had many problems with coaches, lacked motivation ect. Laffy has a great personality and by all accounts a great attitude. That is honestly probably reason #1 of why I think he is going to get there and become an impact player.

 

[bhamill]

This adds so much to the convo. Thank you.

It didn't answer my question... but thanks.

Thought the question was rhetorical, your expert mind seems made up. Read his draft scouting report. That's what there is to develop. You think your post added anything to the conversation? Besides negative absurdist humor? 21 year 3 month old player with 180 whole regular season games under his belt, who had a 19 (all EV) goal season in his D+2, and you don't expect anyone to take the piss with your hot "there's nothing there" take? Come on. Hahaha.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

Thought the question was rhetorical, your expert mind seems made up. Read his draft scouting report. That's what there is to develop. You think your post added anything to the conversation? Besides negative absurdist humor? 21 year 3 month old player with 180 whole regular season games under his belt, who had a 19 (all EV) goal season in his D+2, and you don't expect anyone to take the piss with your hot "there's nothing there" take? Come on. Hahaha.

The "there is nothing there to develop" argument is so horrendously bad that I would say the only mistake you made was to reply to it in the first place

 

[effen]

Counter counter counterpoint: says who? Jack Hughes had a worse rookie rookie year than Laf but they continued "gifting" him four minutes more a game, top line minutes and powerplay time... for his development. The obvious here though is that Hughes was also not blocked down the lineup by star forwards, and the Devs CLEARLY weren't winning anything anyway.

Hughes is a great skater. Laf is a shitty skater. Nothing about four extra minutes or "development" would make him a less shitty skater. Bad skating leads to lack of engagement and excessive reading of the play and doing nothing.

He will be a less shitty skater when he works on his skating and conditioning. Not when he gets more "development".

 

[Raspewtin]

JT Miller
Kreider
Buch
Chytil

All these good forwards struggled in their first 1-2 NHL seasons. Miller and Kreider went down to the AHL, Buch scored but was a black hole in every other element of his game early on. Chytil's gotten so much better defensively and on the transition.

But unless he completely reimagines his game, Laf is only going to be useful to a team if he's scoring 55+. NYR cut ties with Zherdev for free after a 54 point season because he was absolutely useless otherwise.

mmmm not sure about that.

rookie year buch for all his faults was more electrifying than kakko and lafreniere's entire careers, combined, to this point. of course age plays a role but frankly I'd rather they made high end offensive plays but struggle defensively than whatever they're doing now. I think Buch's development is what we were really wishing for with KK/Laf but instead we're getting JT Miller it feels like, minus the talent and flashes.

Kakko i'm much more forgiving with but Laf, i'm really not. He's not useful at the NHL level in any capacity, and he should be by now.

agree overall that we have no choice but to ride it out, though.

 

[cheech70]

The difference is that even if Kakko levels as a 40 point guy, his all around game makes him an amazing middle 6 winger.

If Laf tops out at 40 points, he doesn't offer anything else to the lineup. Like Vesey's first tour here when he didn't know how to play NHL defense.

I don't think they should 'give up' on Laf any more than we should give up on Kravtsov- we need to get production from cost controlled RFA players- and so we just have to be patient and hope that, like with Chytil and Buchnevich, our patience is rewarded.

JT Miller
Kreider
Buch
Chytil

All these good forwards struggled in their first 1-2 NHL seasons. Miller and Kreider went down to the AHL, Buch scored but was a black hole in every other element of his game early on. Chytil's gotten so much better defensively and on the transition.

But unless he completely reimagines his game, Laf is only going to be useful to a team if he's scoring 55+. NYR cut ties with Zherdev for free after a 54 point season because he was absolutely useless otherwise.

Kreider never scored early on

Hughes is a great skater. Laf is a shitty skater. Nothing about four extra minutes or "development" would make him a less shitty skater. Bad skating leads to lack of engagement and excessive reading of the play and doing nothing.

He will be a less shitty skater when he works on his skating and conditioning. Not when he gets more "development".

He needs a little Rocky training...he looks like a mommas boy

 

[haohmaru]

Thought the question was rhetorical, your expert mind seems made up. Read his draft scouting report. That's what there is to develop. You think your post added anything to the conversation? Besides negative absurdist humor? 21 year 3 month old player with 180 whole regular season games under his belt, who had a 19 (all EV) goal season in his D+2, and you don't expect anyone to take the piss with your hot "there's nothing there" take? Come on. Hahaha.

Wings drafted 1OA over the last 30 years:

Last one was Yakupov (bust) through age 21 Goals / Assists

Yakupov 42 / 46 (3 seasons)
Hall 65 / 80 (3 seasons)
Kane 76 / 154 (3 seasons)
Ovechkin 98 / 100 (2 seasons!)
Nash 89 / 61 (3 seasons)
Kovalchuk 160 / 143 (4 seasons)

Lafreniere 36 / 34 (2.6 seasons)

Those are all 1st OA wings going back 30+ years through age 21. Lafreniere might not even do as "well" as Yakupov did and is nowhere near anyone else on that list.

Acting like we're out of our f***ing minds because we're concerned about what we've seen so far is the real "hot take". It's what history has shown us a 1OA wing should be and what we've actually got (so far). I'm a Rangers fan and certainly not hoping for anything other than him figuring it out but I'm not going to close my eyes and stick my head in the sand and pretend I'm looking at Hall or Nash or Ovechkin.

 

[smoneil]

I just wanted to write "poolparty"

We need to trade for poolparty and put him on a line with Kreider. That'd be a line with a lot of jump to it.

 

[LORDE]

Thought the question was rhetorical, your expert mind seems made up. Read his draft scouting report. That's what there is to develop. You think your post added anything to the conversation? Besides negative absurdist humor? 21 year 3 month old player with 180 whole regular season games under his belt, who had a 19 (all EV) goal season in his D+2, and you don't expect anyone to take the piss with your hot "there's nothing there" take? Come on. Hahaha.

I don't see anything there and I have read his draft reports (before we even had the #1, after we did and then again recently)

I don't see what developing him is going to be? Better? Maybe... hopefully. But a 1st line wing? Hell even a 2nd line?

Very doubtful.

I hope I'm wrong... I honestly do. I've seen nothing to prove that he'll end up in the top-6 on any good team even IF his hockey sense and hands are developed... which are 2 things inherently DIFFICULT if not impossible to teach at the NHL level.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

I don't see anything there and I have read his draft reports (before we even had the #1, after we did and then again recently)

I don't see what developing him is going to be? Better? Maybe... hopefully. But a 1st line wing? Hell even a 2nd line?

Very doubtful.

I hope I'm wrong... I honestly do. I've seen nothing to prove that he'll end up in the top-6 on any good team even IF his hockey sense and hands are developed... which are 2 things inherently DIFFICULT if not impossible to teach at the NHL level.

There are many areas you could pick on Laffy and say he needs to improve...to say hands is one of them is all I need to hear to recognize that you're just a hater who doesn't actually analyze his game.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Wings drafted 1OA over the last 30 years:

Last one was Yakupov (bust) through age 21 Goals / Assists

Yakupov 42 / 46 (3 seasons)
Hall 65 / 80 (3 seasons)
Kane 76 / 154 (3 seasons)
Ovechkin 98 / 100 (2 seasons!)
Nash 89 / 61 (3 seasons)
Kovalchuk 160 / 143 (4 seasons)

Lafreniere 36 / 34 (2.6 seasons)

Those are all 1st OA wings going back 30+ years through age 21. Lafreniere might not even do as "well" as Yakupov did and is nowhere near anyone else on that list.

Acting like we're out of our f***ing minds because we're concerned about what we've seen so far is the real "hot take". It's what history has shown us a 1OA wing should be and what we've actually got (so far). I'm a Rangers fan and certainly not hoping for anything other than him figuring it out but I'm not going to close my eyes and stick my head in the sand and pretend I'm looking at Hall or Nash or Ovechkin.

Also don't forget scoring has skyrocketed in recent years.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

Wings drafted 1OA over the last 30 years:

Last one was Yakupov (bust) through age 21 Goals / Assists

Yakupov 42 / 46 (3 seasons)
Hall 65 / 80 (3 seasons)
Kane 76 / 154 (3 seasons)
Ovechkin 98 / 100 (2 seasons!)
Nash 89 / 61 (3 seasons)
Kovalchuk 160 / 143 (4 seasons)

Lafreniere 36 / 34 (2.6 seasons)

Those are all 1st OA wings going back 30+ years through age 21. Lafreniere might not even do as "well" as Yakupov did and is nowhere near anyone else on that list.

Acting like we're out of our f***ing minds because we're concerned about what we've seen so far is the real "hot take". It's what history has shown us a 1OA wing should be and what we've actually got (so far). I'm a Rangers fan and certainly not hoping for anything other than him figuring it out but I'm not going to close my eyes and stick my head in the sand and pretend I'm looking at Hall or Nash or Ovechkin.

I dont think anyone is out of their minds for being concerned.

That said, of all of those players, how many of their goals were powerplay goals and what was their EV usage?

 

[smoneil]

Wings drafted 1OA over the last 30 years:

Last one was Yakupov (bust) through age 21 Goals / Assists

Yakupov 42 / 46 (3 seasons)
Hall 65 / 80 (3 seasons)
Kane 76 / 154 (3 seasons)
Ovechkin 98 / 100 (2 seasons!)
Nash 89 / 61 (3 seasons)
Kovalchuk 160 / 143 (4 seasons)

Lafreniere 36 / 34 (2.6 seasons)

Those are all 1st OA wings going back 30+ years through age 21. Lafreniere might not even do as "well" as Yakupov did and is nowhere near anyone else on that list.

Acting like we're out of our f***ing minds because we're concerned about what we've seen so far is the real "hot take". It's what history has shown us a 1OA wing should be and what we've actually got (so far). I'm a Rangers fan and certainly not hoping for anything other than him figuring it out but I'm not going to close my eyes and stick my head in the sand and pretend I'm looking at Hall or Nash or Ovechkin.

Yakupov in his first three seasons had--15 ppg and 11 ppa (so 27g and 35a at ES). Yakupov played 192 games in his first 3 seasons, averaging just under 15 minutes TOI/G.

Hall in his first three seasons had--25g/21a on the PP (so 40g and 59a at ES). Hall played 171 games in his first 3 seasons, averaging more than 18 minutes TOI/G.

Kane in his first three seasons had--29g/63a on the PP (so 47g and 91a at ES). Kane played 244 games in his first three seasons, averaging more than 18:30 minutes TOI/G.

Ovechkin in his first two seasons had--37g/52a on the PP (so 61g and 48a at ES). Ovechkin played 163 games in his first 2 seasons, averaging more than 21 minutes TOI/G. OV is also a freak, and nobody has ever tried to compare Laf's potential to him.

Nash in his first three seasons had--36g/28a on the PP (so 53g and 33a at ES). Nash played 208 games in his first 3 seasons, averaging ~16/17 minutes TOI/G. He also had the benefit of the lockout between years 2 and 3, which gave him another full year of development.

Kovalchuck in his first four seasons had--59g/67a on the PP (so 101g and 76a at ES). Kovalchuk played 305 games in his first 4 seasons, averaging ~21/22 minutes TOI/G. Like Nash, Kovy also had the benefit of the lockout year, giving him an additional year of development.

Laf in his first three seasons (one of which is not yet even completed), has had--0g/3a on the PP, largely due to the fact that his unit only gets pp time in 15-20 second batches (so 36g and 31a at ES). Laf has played (thus far) 179 games in his first three seasons, averaging just over 14 minutes per game.


So to add some context: Laf has played, in some cases, 50-100 fewer games than your examples. He's been played 4+ minutes less per game than most of your examples. Unlike most of your list, he rarely plays with the top players on his team. And even STILL, accounting for games played and minutes played, his even strength production is far better than Yakupov, and on par with Hall, Kane, and Nash (though I don't think Laf will ever be the playmaker that Kane is).


The Rangers chose to develop these kids in an unusual way (not feeding them minutes in all situations to develop quickly). Because of that, raw production will NEVER tell the full story. You have to consider the context. And considering the context, Laf appears to be doing just fine, though he does seem to be going through a rough patch in terms of his confidence at the moment. The Rangers need to get him a conditioning stint to get his confidence back. They don't need to jump ship early on the only 1st overall pick they are likely to get during our lifetimes.

Edited to add another interesting stat. In the seasons that you posted for those players, here are their respective playoff stats:

Yakupov: 0 goals, 0 assists, 0 points
Hall: 0 goals, 0 assists, 0 points
Kane: 9 goals, 5 assists, 14 points (6 of which were on the PP, so 8 ES)
Ovechkin: 0 goals, 0 assists, 0 points
Nash: 0 goals, 0 assists, 0 points
Kovalchuk: 0 goals, 0 assists, 0 points
Lafreniere: 2 goals, 7 assists, 9 points (2 on the PP, so 7 ES)

Of your list, the ONLY player who didn't fall apart in the postseason (among the ones who have even seen the postseason) is Kane. And Laf compares pretty evenly to him in that regard.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Ritchie makes almost too much sense. Especially considering the PP2 net front presence has been, we'll just say, not great and Ritchie excels there.



There little reason why Ritchie couldn't be a team's Pat Maroon...

Ritchie was very strong in for Anaheim in the '17 playoffs.

Let us expand:

To ANA
Panarin
Poolparty
Broberg

To EDM
McTavish
Lafreniere
Schneider
Erik Karlsson(25% Retained)
2024 NYR 1st
2025 NYR 1st
2024 ANA 1st

To SJ
Chytil
Kravstov
2023 NYR 1st
2023 EDM 2nd
Jones

To NYR
McDavid
Meier(extended)

Impressive! Way to go full Bern! LOL

 

[Fitzy]

But this whole conversation and the arguments within inevitably swing back to the fact that Lafreniere, minutes or no, opportunities or no, has not shown us anything in terms of growth, improvement, or adjustment this season. He's still floating around like he's in the Q and no one can defend.

His game is too static- you need to be able to pass on the move at the NHL level. These teams are good at picking out defensive lanes if you aren't shifting the angles enough. He doesn't move enough with the puck on his stick.

It seems he started slow and came on late last season, which I suppose we just have to hope is typical of him.

 

[New York RKY]

To ANA:
Panarin

To EDM
McTavish
Chytil
Schneider
2 NYR 1sts

To NYR
McDavid

That’s not realistic at all, you forget:

To AZ:
7th round pick

To NYR:
Chychrun

Much better.

 

[haohmaru]

The Rangers chose to develop these kids in an unusual way (not feeding them minutes in all situations to develop quickly). Because of that, raw production will NEVER tell the full story. You have to consider the context. And considering the context, Laf appears to be doing just fine, though he does seem to be going through a rough patch in terms of his confidence at the moment. The Rangers need to get him a conditioning stint to get his confidence back. They don't need to jump ship early on the only 1st overall pick they are likely to get during our lifetimes.

I'm not sure "unusual" is the right word - most of those teams were bottom feeders, got their 1OA, and put them right up top because they were immediately their best player. Lafreniere wasn't that on this team.

And, I'm 100% with you on the last sentence - I have never advocated for trading Lafreniere or giving up on him. He's been hard to watch, though, for the past month-month and a half.

 

[smoneil]

Also don't forget scoring has skyrocketed in recent years.

I wouldn't call less than one additional goal per game "skyrocketing." There are, however, far fewer power play opportunities now than there were when most of the wingers on that list were breaking into the league (twice as many PPO per game in some cases compared to the last couple of seasons). Considering how much those players' numbers benefitted from pp production...

NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest NHL League Averages including shots, saves, goal averages and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com