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Speculation: Roster Building Thread II (2019/2020) - DeAngelo and Lemieux Left

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SA16 said:
Did Armia or Lehkonen receive offer sheets? Did anyone on Calgary get offer sheeted after they sent one to ROR? Did anyone on PHI get offer sheeted after they sent one to Weber? Did anyone on SJ get offer sheeted after they sent one to Hjalmarsson?

That's the last 10 years of offer sheets. There has not been this retaliation even one time.

The last team to offer sheet a player and then have one of their players offer sheeted was Carolina. They sent one to Fedorov in 1998. Then Montreal sent on to Aho in 2019. I do not think these are related.
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Wasn't the Backes/Bernier an example of retaliation?

I think if you speak with most GM's, they understand the odds of the player signing and then the offer not being matched are slim and in order for that to happen you must overpay. When you overpay, normally that means you're giving up more assets than you would like to. So the effort isn't worth the probability of success
 
n8 said:
Hmm, so it's negotiate a contract or he's effectively a UFA at that point cause they ain't gonna qualify that offer unless he turns into a Swiss Draisatl
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Or he can use that $10M salary/QO number as leverage for himself... "listen I was supposed to be owed this, but I'll take X more over more years if you want"
 
NYR Viper said:
Wasn't the Backes/Bernier an example of retaliation?

I think if you speak with most GM's, they understand the odds of the player signing and then the offer not being matched are slim and in order for that to happen you must overpay. When you overpay, normally that means you're giving up more assets than you would like to. So the effort isn't worth the probability of success
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Glossed over that one was it was more than 10 years ago but all those two offer sheets did was negotiate a fair deal for the player to stay on his existing team and such were matched. And I fully expect the same thing to happen here. If someone wants to offer sheet DeAngelo/Lemieux by all means go ahead and Gorton will just match it (provide it isn't something egregious which it won't be or why would the other team offer it?) and it's easier work for him than negotiating the deal himself.

So I'm going to have to say one instance of instant "retaliation" occuring in the last 20+ years is not actually much of a deterrent.

Offer sheets are mostly a broken system which is more of the reason they don't get done as opposed to fears of retaliation. They are a good idea but don't really work in practice. Especially when the guys who actually would be good targets (Johnsson/Kapanen) end up not being options because other teams like to help them solve their own cap issues. The compensation for expensive deals is too high and the compensation for cheap deals is too low.
 
SA16 said:
There is no "supposed to."
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.... you get what i am saying stop being a smart ass.

His QO is $10M, he can use that to leverage his time with SJS in to a longer deal, or SJS can opt to not qualify him, or they can qualify him on a 1 year deal and then he goes off as a free agent
 
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SA16 said:
Glossed over that one was it was more than 10 years ago but all those two offer sheets did was negotiate a fair deal for the player to stay on his existing team and such were matched. And I fully expect the same thing to happen here. If someone wants to offer sheet DeAngelo/Lemieux by all means go ahead and Gorton will just match it (provide it isn't something egregious which it won't be or why would the other team offer it?) and it's easier work for him than negotiating the deal himself.
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This is silliness. DeAngelo and Lemieux have little-to-no leverage unless through an offer sheet. Gorton has a price in mind and he knows that those two have little recourse except a holdout if they can't attract an offer from another team. If another team is bothering to do an offer sheet, they'll make it at a price that's fair for them as players, but more than what's traditionally given to your own RFAs without arbitration rights. It would have a lot more impact than saving Gorton the work of negotiation.
 
It's kinda crazy how these pending RFA deals have brought the market to a screeching halt. Even once ADA and Lemieux sign, I think we're gonna have to do some creative accounting and roster management to stave off any potential bonuses for next year. I messed around a bit in CapFriendly, and unfortunately the easiest solution might be to keep young guys like Lias and Kravtsov in the AHL to start the year; Boo is the 4C, and Brendan Smith can serve as a dual 7D/13F in this scenario. I then sent down Beleskey, Lias, and McKegg, which left us with $2,829,367 in cap space to sign Deangelo. If you wanted to swap Lias for Boo, it leaves us with $2,635,301. If you'd rather have Kravtsov up, we have $2,604,367.

Even on a 1 year deal, we should be able to find some common ground with ADA there, no? If you throw him a bone and bump him to ~$1.5M, we can roll into the year with around $1M in cap space, depending on those three situations. Depending which 3LD you choose between Hajek/Lindgren/Rykov/Reunanen, the number changes by ~$100k. I also kept Fox in the lineup for easiness sake, but signing a cheap RD like Lovejoy also could help save another ~$1ook in cap space.

The lineup gets a little janky with Kravtsov instead of Lias/Nieves, but here's what it could look like:

Panarin-Mika-Buch
Kreider-Strome-Kakko
Chytil-Howden-Kravtsov
Lemieux-Namestnikov-Fast

Skjei-Trouba
Staal-ADA
Hajek-Fox

Hank
Georgiev

Smith as 13F/7D

It's not ideal, but I think it's at least semi-balanced and puts the younger players in positions to succeed. The one thing that worries me is that 3L could be a nightmare, but I think careful deployment can shelter them. I didn't consider moving Kakko or Kravtsov to their off wings, but could be another option with Chytil shifting to C and Strome shifting to RW.

I'd love to have a way to get ADA in here long-term, but I don't think it's an option right now.
 
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For the bonuses, wouldn't it help if we were able to move Kreider and/or Namestnikov at or before the TDL? I don't know the specific cap implications, but if we managed to save room that should theoretically help with performance bonuses and all that, right?
 
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nyr2k2 said:
For the bonuses, wouldn't it help if we were able to move Kreider and/or Namestnikov at or before the TDL? I don't know the specific cap implications, but if we managed to save room that should theoretically help with performance bonuses and all that, right?
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Yes. The bonuses are paid out from whatever unused cap space we have at the end of the season. Trading them at any point in the season will save us some cap, assuming we don't bring back equal/more cap in the deals.
 
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nyr2k2 said:
For the bonuses, wouldn't it help if we were able to move Kreider and/or Namestnikov at or before the TDL? I don't know the specific cap implications, but if we managed to save room that should theoretically help with performance bonuses and all that, right?
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I think so, but I wasn't sure. I didn't include potential deadline moves in that projection, and I was solely focused on entering the year at a breathable number to help bank space as the season progressed. I wanted to leave enough to be able to recall and extra F if necessary.
 
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HockeyBasedNYC said:
Could you imagine if the Devils sheeted ADA and/or Lemieux?

If you think about it, there has only been one deal between the two teams in like forever. It’s not like Shero has to guard against any ill will... they are already rivals.

From the players standpoint it would be an easy transition and they wouldn’t have to move. Same could be said for the Isles.

As if the rivalry wasn’t already recharged after all the additions these to teams have made over the past several months. This would really heat things up even more!
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I don’t think Gorton would take very kindly to that.

Most NHL GMs are p***yes, but Gorton? I wouldn’t piss him off if I were an opposing GM.

That said, Shero seems like the type that might actually go ahead and do it. I doubt it’d ever happen, but yeah, if it did, it would be wild. Especially considering that those two are basically our sparkplugs, which I think is an overlooked aspect of ADA’s game. Lots of people bitch about his hot headedness but I don’t mind it, it adds an element of nasty to our team. Tony’s a smaller guy but he’s tough as nails, dude will f*** most players up. Lemieux is just a terrifying psycho, who happens to be good at hockey, and I love it.
 
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McCartney said:
I don’t think Gorton would take very kindly to that.

Most NHL GMs are *****es, but Gorton? I wouldn’t piss him off if I were an opposing GM.

That said, Shero seems like the type that might actually go ahead and do it. I doubt it’d ever happen, but yeah, if it did, it would be wild. Especially considering that those two are basically our sparkplugs, which I think is an overlooked aspect of ADA’s game. Lots of people ***** about his hot headedness but I don’t mind it, it adds an element of nasty to our team. Tony’s a smaller guy but he’s tough as nails, dude will **** most players up. Lemieux is just a terrifying psycho, who happens to be good at hockey, and I love it.
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Yeah I agree. They’re both hard to play against and we don’t really have enough guys like that. Trouba should bring some which will be welcome also.
 
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I don't know why I never thought about a DeAngelo offer sheet, 4x4 isn't a ridiculous contract but we'd have a hard time matching it, and we'd only get a second round pick.

Weirdly, 4 of the teams in our division (CBJ, NJD, PIT, WAS) don't have their 2020 second round pick
 
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I can’t believe the offersheet talk is still happening in here

At the end of the day, it comes down to this.

NHL GM’s are all friendly, and 95% of them are terrified to rock the boat too much and do anything uncharacteristic. Hence why it was almost 10 years before the last offersheet happened.

And even if a GM is feeling giddy enough to send out an offersheet, why offersheet a player that, in the NHL hierarchy, is a small fish in a big pond? Why would a GM risk hurting their relationship with another GM for someone who isn’t a star?

They wouldn’t.

And let’s be real, DeAngelo and Lemieux aren’t players to write home about. DeAngelo has shown half a season of being a capable top 4 D, and Lemieux is a 4th line tweener who plays rough. I like them both, but they’re not players worth offersheeting.

And should a team throw an offersheet for one of them, it’s not like the other team automatically gets them.

Like this is a non-concern
 
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Mac n Gs said:
It's kinda crazy how these pending RFA deals have brought the market to a screeching halt. Even once ADA and Lemieux sign, I think we're gonna have to do some creative accounting and roster management to stave off any potential bonuses for next year. I messed around a bit in CapFriendly, and unfortunately the easiest solution might be to keep young guys like Lias and Kravtsov in the AHL to start the year; Boo is the 4C, and Brendan Smith can serve as a dual 7D/13F in this scenario. I then sent down Beleskey, Lias, and McKegg, which left us with $2,829,367 in cap space to sign Deangelo. If you wanted to swap Lias for Boo, it leaves us with $2,635,301. If you'd rather have Kravtsov up, we have $2,604,367.

Even on a 1 year deal, we should be able to find some common ground with ADA there, no? If you throw him a bone and bump him to ~$1.5M, we can roll into the year with around $1M in cap space, depending on those three situations. Depending which 3LD you choose between Hajek/Lindgren/Rykov/Reunanen, the number changes by ~$100k. I also kept Fox in the lineup for easiness sake, but signing a cheap RD like Lovejoy also could help save another ~$1ook in cap space.

The lineup gets a little janky with Kravtsov instead of Lias/Nieves, but here's what it could look like:

Panarin-Mika-Buch
Kreider-Strome-Kakko
Chytil-Howden-Kravtsov
Lemieux-Namestnikov-Fast

Skjei-Trouba
Staal-ADA
Hajek-Fox

Hank
Georgiev

Smith as 13F/7D

It's not ideal, but I think it's at least semi-balanced and puts the younger players in positions to succeed. The one thing that worries me is that 3L could be a nightmare, but I think careful deployment can shelter them. I didn't consider moving Kakko or Kravtsov to their off wings, but could be another option with Chytil shifting to C and Strome shifting to RW.

I'd love to have a way to get ADA in here long-term, but I don't think it's an option right now.
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Re. ADA I don't think the Rangers need this $2.6-2.8 cap space. For a short bridge deal where ADA has practically no leverage this is too much. On the other hand, to sign him to a long term contract it's not enough.

Re. lineup - I'm not a gambler but I'd almost put my money on the organization penciling Chytil into 2C spot, not Strome.
 
The offer sheet stuff is ridiculous but it’s even more ridiculous that we didn’t move namestnikov Strome or even Kreider. I certainly don’t want Kreider moved but all three of them being on the roster still is just not a very good job on managements part.
 
Kovalev27 said:
The offer sheet stuff is ridiculous but it’s even more ridiculous that we didn’t move namestnikov Strome or even Kreider. I certainly don’t want Kreider moved but all three of them being on the roster still is just not a very good job on managements part.
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I think its more about the market and teams simply not having the capspace to take on their contracts.

But I do agree, they should be moved even with a small add to clear the cap.
 
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Kovalev27 said:
The offer sheet stuff is ridiculous but it’s even more ridiculous that we didn’t move namestnikov Strome or even Kreider. I certainly don’t want Kreider moved but all three of them being on the roster still is just not a very good job on managements part.
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Do you want them moved for cents on a dollar return?
 
Kovalev27 said:
The offer sheet stuff is ridiculous but it’s even more ridiculous that we didn’t move namestnikov Strome or even Kreider. I certainly don’t want Kreider moved but all three of them being on the roster still is just not a very good job on managements part.
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Where and for what though? The market has come to a screeching halt. There’s not many teams with cap space, and the ones that do have a RFA that's going to get a huge deal.
 
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