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Speculation: Roster Building Thread DCLXXV: Marc Staal... Come on Down!!!

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THE BIG WHISTLE said:
Tumor could be benign. :) (Wouldn't try medical illustrations with me) :laugh:

Girardi is part of the problem but he isn't the problem
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I think people may be surprised what difference can replacing Girardi with someone of Top4 caliber make. Daley - Scuderi is great example of it. That trade was big part of Pittsburgh turnaround that season. Replacing defensive blackhole with someone who fit their system. We saw it with Rangers too. Smith and Staal, when Smith actually got 2nd pairing minutes, it was like day and night.
 
McD37 said:
I think people may be surprised what difference can replacing Girardi with someone of Top4 caliber make. Daley - Scuderi is great example of it. That trade was big part of Pittsburgh turnaround that season. Replacing defensive blackhole with someone who fit their system. We saw it with Rangers too. Smith and Staal, when Smith actually got 2nd pairing minutes, it was like day and night.
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This is a nice way to put it. If Gyroodi isn't a problem, then we don't REALLY have any problems. The net gain in quality of our team with a singular swap would be with either Staal or Girardi.

Girardi is protected by McDonagh but Staal had Holden to work with so it's a bit deceptive as to how much Girardi sucks as well, if you don't buy the charts and numbers machinehead posted.
 
Vitto79 said:
It's a problem he makes too much as a top 4 d but he's not a bad 3rd pairing guy.
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He is bad as a third pairing guy though. It's a bit of a bamboozle trap to say player X isn't bad on the 4th line or on the 3rd pairing. You don't have to drag your team down on the 3rd pairing or 4th line. It's just as easy to say Cody McLeod isn't bad if he's only on the fourth line but on the other hand, you could have a Jesper Fast or Oscar Lindberg.
 
bobbop said:
Definitely agree. Without the injury he was probably on a path for 5 X $5.5MM or more. Now I'm thinking shorter term, less money. The only problem is that you don't want the term to be too short.
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He has 2 years of RFA status left, so he will get a minimum of a 3 year deal. More likely, it will be at least 4 years like Kreider's deal.
 
I've seen people talk about dead cap space as if it's the devil.
My counter argument, do we really think it's hard to find a better player then Girardi/Staal for their cap hit - the dead cap space their buyout would give us?
I think we can find better players for league minimum, hence i think the dead cap space argument is dumb.
 
Machinehead said:
TIL that getting scored on constantly is "analytics"
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Everything that they disagree with are flawed analytics, is what I've learned.

Lorb said:
He is bad as a third pairing guy though. It's a bit of a bamboozle trap to say player X isn't bad on the 4th line or on the 3rd pairing. You don't have to drag your team down on the 3rd pairing or 4th line. It's just as easy to say Cody McLeod isn't bad if he's only on the fourth line but on the other hand, you could have a Jesper Fast or Oscar Lindberg.
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****ing this oh my god.

Like yeah Girardi probably won't embarrass himself every shift on the 3rd pair but he'd be a net negative no matter where he is.
 
Lorb said:
This is a nice way to put it. If Gyroodi isn't a problem, then we don't REALLY have any problems. The net gain in quality of our team with a singular swap would be with either Staal or Girardi.

Girardi is protected by McDonagh but Staal had Holden to work with so it's a bit deceptive as to how much Girardi sucks as well, if you don't buy the charts and numbers machinehead posted.
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There's a difference between girardi 4 years ago and today. Just because we appreciate his contribution before doesn't mean we think he's effective now. Why does it have to turn into twisting words and ideas? You won't find a single person hoping he's here going forward.

Enough past girardi talk, this is a different thread.
 
ManUtdTobbe said:
I've seen people talk about dead cap space as if it's the devil.
My counter argument, do we really think it's hard to find a better player then Girardi/Staal for their cap hit - the dead cap space their buyout would give us?
I think we can find better players for league minimum, hence i think the dead cap space argument is dumb.
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I've been saying the same thing. In the worst years, you're still getting the equivalent of losing one of their full salaries. You still get almost $8.5 million in cap relief. I think the cap penalty is such an overrated aspect of buying the wonder twins out.
 
jas said:
I've been saying the same thing. In the worst years, you're still getting the equivalent of losing one of their full salaries. You still get almost $8.5 million in cap relief. I think the cap penalty is such an overrated aspect of buying the wonder twins out.
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I stopped trying to explain this months ago. I've given up at this point.
 
Irishguy42 said:
I like how the people who say Girardi has never been good throw out a mix of opinions and stats/evidence (would at least like a source thrown in, to be honest), whereas the people who say he's always been good just lay out opinions.

"Girard was never good" crowd, please source your stats so there is no accusations of pulling them out of your butt.

"Girard was good early" crowd, please supply something other than subjectivity. It's mostly worthless.

Using stats and sourcing them is always good, no matter what side of the argument you are on :thumbu:

But this is getting OT, no? Can we go back to discussing the rosterbm building?
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The bigger issue here is your implication that subjectivity is a bad thing. It isn't. Also, the way statistics are applied is subjective. After all, there are three kinds of lies.

Anyway, Girardi ranks 50th among all D in terms of points from his first full season through the end of Tortorella's tenure (07-08 through 12-13). For a defensive defenseman, that is pretty good. He ranks 3rd in blocked shots over the same period. 5th in takeaways. 6th in hits. And yes, he was also 3rd in games played, giving him ample opportunity to be high up on some of these lists, but durability is a positive too.

Now, keep in mind. This was a different league then. Part of that time period, Girardi spent in a system that was predicated at blocking shots and he was the best at it (1st during the 4 year period Tortorella was head coach, 58 blocks ahead of the 2nd place D). The way teams valued physicality among their defenseman was higher then too.

And this is what I mean by the application of statistics being subjective. It's hard to look at what makes a player good in the game over the last 4-5 years and use that criteria to say the player was bad in when values were different. I agree that Girardi is bad for the way the game is played right now and, with his physical deterioration, probably wouldn't be good in the 2008 NHL either. Even if you transported Girardi at his peak physical ability to the present, he probably still wouldn't be very good. But for the way the game was played in 2010, Girardi was excellent.
 
When will we find out about the NHLPA's decision to use the escalator? If we're going into this season with a flat cap, Gorton is going to have to get creative.
 
Why am I seemingly the only person who's upset that the twins weren't asked to waive, since it was apparently an option?
 
fm said:
Why am I seemingly the only person who's upset that the twins weren't asked to waive, since it was apparently an option?
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Who were the Rangers going to protect instead of Girardi or Staal? Klein? Holden? Pending UFA Smith? Kampfer??

There was simply no reason to ask either to waive.

In your opinion, what was the benefit of requesting it?
 
Mac n Gs said:
When will we find out about the NHLPA's decision to use the escalator? If we're going into this season with a flat cap, Gorton is going to have to get creative.
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NHLPA has said they won't use it.

fm said:
Why am I seemingly the only person who's upset that the twins weren't asked to waive, since it was apparently an option?
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Because either of them waiving for the expansion draft alone isn't doing anything for us. It won't magically give us a spot to protect Lindberg or Fast (Although Clown Brett might think so haha)
 
NYR Viper said:
I mean I'd protect Holden
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Why? The entire purpose of acquiring him was to expose him in the expansion draft.

In fact, his lower salary means he'd be more enticing to Vegas than Staal or Girardi... reducing (though not eliminating) the chances they'd take someone like Lindberg or Fast.
 
NYR Viper said:
I mean I'd protect Holden
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* All Clubs must meet the following minimum requirements regarding players exposed for selection in the Expansion Draft:

i) One defenseman who is a) under contract in 2017-18 and b) played in 40 or more NHL games the prior season OR played in 70 or more NHL games in the prior two seasons.

ii) Two forwards who are a) under contract in 2017-18 and b) played in 40 or more NHL games the prior season OR played in 70 or more NHL games in the prior two seasons.
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Source: NHL.com

Point 1 is why we shouldn't protect Holden. Expose him, meet the requirements and see if we can trade Klein for picks.
 
Tawnos said:
In the scenario where one of S/G waives, the Rangers would meet the requirements with one of them.
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True, but I was referring to your message stating he was acquired for the purpose of exposure in the draft.

We gain nothing by asking Girardi/Staal to waive solely for the expansion draft
 
Amazing Kreiderman said:
True, but I was referring to your message stating he was acquired for the purpose of exposure in the draft.

We gain nothing by asking Girardi/Staal to waive solely for the expansion draft
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Right. I think the plan was to trade Klein at the deadline, if the team wasn't doing well, and keep Holden for the exposure requirements. Instead, Klein was hurt and couldn't be dealt anyway.
 
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