Speculation: Roster Building Frenzy Part XX

[smoneil]

That might be the most rational post in 210 pages. Even if I don't necessarily agree with the conclusion.

The entire post is based on the notion that it is a concrete fact that you can't compete without a top 20 center. The Rangers competed for years before the rebuild without skating a top 20 center. At his best, Stepan was top 50. The truism at the center of the entire argument is demonstrably false. And there's a salary cap. So as I said a few pages ago--you want Eichel and Zib (or either one at a 10 million per contract)? Start listing the key players we're going to give away for free to stay cap compliant, because we'll be in a 15 million dollar cap hole in less than two years.

There's a difference between wanting something and being able to afford something. When people buy things they can't afford, sooner or later the repo man (ie: salary cap) comes for your stuff. Unless you're Tampa Bay. Then they chill while you collect another Cup first.

 

[Boris Zubov]

The longer the situation in Buffalo drags on, the leverage shifts to Eichel. He is not going to have the fusion. The Sabres may have the right to approve the surgery but Eichel can’t be obligated to have their preferred surgery. The clock is ticking on the 2021-22 season and Eichel’s impending NTC on 7/1/22. This is not going to turn out well for the Sabres and Drury is smart to bide his time. I’m quite sure the Rangers have a good understanding of the artificial disc procedure and what it would mean.

Patience, patience, patience!

I agree with all of this, but aren't you anti-Eichel regardless of the cost? You've been on record saying he's not great in the locker room, not a leader etc. Have you switched gears on this & if so, what changed your mind?

Personally I'm on the fence & prefer to steer clear of Eichel unless the price becomes too good to pass up.. Something akin to Jones, Georgiev, & a 1st....& also means Kakko is off limits in any deal.

 

[bleedblue94]

I wouldn't let Zibanejad walk. I'd move him at the deadline at 50% to pick up another 1st in one of the next two stacked drafts. And as I said, Malkin is just one of many examples. If Chytil doesn't take a step, that could change things, but we'd know what we need to know by the trade deadline.

And cut the snide comments. I don't even OWN NHL 21 (my "newest" gaming system is a Playstation two. Other than that, I only have a Sega Genesis). It's not about video games. It's literally about being realistic. You talk about a competition window of 5-8 years. But as you have done in just about every post in this thread, you ignore the salary cap. The money won't last for 5-8 years. It runs out in two. Then we start losing important depth players. Say goodbye to Kravtsov, Miller, Lundkvist, etc etc. Because at that point, we'd be forced to choose between them and Fox and Laf. If Zib is willing to sign for five or fewer years at or below 8M AAV? Great. It's stretching the finances, but it might be feasible with a lot of bridging. Anything more? We don't have a choice. A top 20 C is a luxury on this roster. If it's not coming on a bargain, it isn't worth it, and the team does NOT need one (or more) of them to compete.

I also have no idea why you think Malkin would balk at a two year deal. Panarin and Kakko/Kravtsov would instantly be the best set of wingers he's ever had on a line, and it would give him a chance to pull a Messier and show that he can get the job done outside of the NHL face's shadow.

You're aware zib has a ntc right now and can/should block any trade unless it's to a team that has permission and has negotiated an extension with him prior to the trade.

It is very realistic that zib is either getting overpaid bc nyr doesn't want him to walk for nothing or that he does in fact walk for nothing...

Zib has every once of leverage in this situation bc of his ntc. I really liked gorts but that was a mistake by him.

 

[brakeyawself]

The next big ticket UFA will be Matthews. I do not see him staying in Toronto. At what point do the Maple Leafs decide to cross that road?

The bittersweet irony if they lose Matthews for nothing.... Like Tavares and the fishsticks.

I am not so sure Matthews will leave the Leafs. It's still one of the best hockey markets out there and one of the best markets to cash in on external commercial ventures, making him worth way more there than in some other markets. And Toronto have to prefer keeping him to Tavares. And I think they will do everything they can to wrap up Matthews and let Tavares walk if they can't convince him to be traded somewhere. I imagine they are currently regretting signing him given his usage and what he actually brings to the team beyond offensive stats. He gets less minutes than Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Hymen I think last season. And Tavares can't be happy about that.

Others have suggested Matthews going to Coyotes because he's from Arizona. I just don't see it. Regardless of if it's his hometown. But who knows, maybe he does have soooooo much love for that city that he forgoes all the benefits of signing in a bigger market.

Rangers would have to be one of the teams in line to want Matthews and I imagine Rangers are a team he would theoretically opt to go to. If it were possible to align a Zibs extension with Matthews becoming a UFA, this for me would be the best possible scenario and way more favorable than trading for Eichel now.

As far as Strome...... I have no clue. I would like to see him traded, but could also see his contract running down. If we can find a way to trade for Dvorak right now, as has been rumored, I am curious if the Yotes would take Strome as they are stacking contracts ending in the next couple of seasons to open up massive cap space. Probably in part to eventually bid on Matthews if he does become a FA. But Strome would kind of make sense for the Yotes. He's a cheap 1C option for them until his contract is up and then they get more cap space. Just not sure what they would actually move Dvorak for. Obviously moving Kakko, Kravtsov, Chytil, Lundqvist, Schneider or for me, even Jones or Miller would be out of the question for him. Well, I would have to think about Jones at least depending on what else was moving. But if we could get Dvorak for a reasonable price, he seems ideal for where we are and what we need right now, while we still have Zibs at least.

I am still not opposed to the idea of offer-sheeting Elias Pettersson. Whatever it would cost us in future draft picks, would still be preferable to what we would have to pay for Eichel. And if those draft picks did end up being better than they should be, we obviously have deeper problems that need to be corrected.

 

[bleedblue94]

I get that. I would be fine investing in Zib for a reasonable term (no more than 5 years). If he's not amenable, I'd rather move him at the deadline at 50% (get more picks in the stacked drafts) and bring in someone via FA. I just don't think we need to have a top-dollar center on the roster, nor do I think we can afford it long term. We already know that Panarin's line will be a first line no matter who is on it. If Laf and Kakko/Kravtsov develop as we hope, then a guy like a Danault or a Couturier or someone similar might be more than enough to be the "dirty work" guy on a wing-driven line. Who knows, Barron and Chytil might surprise us, Berard might make a bit jump developmentally, of a trade for a Larkin or a Cirelli might present itself.

So essentially there is no real plan. Just wait for something to fall in your lap.

Which is the last team to win the cup without some sort of top level center? It just doesn't happen. It's the Vegas recipe which has consistently failed with everyone in the league saying they need to improve their centers. Teams don't win with only elite wingers, you need centers too.

You realize zib has a ntc and will absolutely use that to his advantage during negotiations whether those are for contract or for trade. If nyr can't trade him bc of the NYC he has all the leverage in negotiations bc he can block any trade and then threaten to walk next summer unless they pay his asking price and there is nothing nyr can do about it...

 

[smoneil]

You're aware zib has a ntc right now and can/should block any trade unless it's to a team that has permission and has negotiated an extension with him prior to the trade.

It is very realistic that zib is either getting overpaid bc nyr doesn't want him to walk for nothing or that he does in fact walk for nothing...

Zib has every once of leverage in this situation bc of his ntc. I really liked gorts but that was a mistake by him.

Players with NTC get moved all the time. It's one thing to allow a team to trade you somewhere with multiple years on your contract, but this would literally be a couple of months. There would be no real move involved. A couple months in a hotel and then back to his home to figure out his offseason strategy. He gets a crack at a post-season run with a contender, and we get some futures. The only thing worse than signing him for too much is letting him walk for nothing. The only area where things could get tricky is if the team is in the playoff picture. Even then, I'd rather let Strome walk for nothing and finish the year with him and Chytil as the two Cs. Zib can/should bring a haul at the trade deadline at 50%.

Editing to address your needlessly added snark. There 100% IS a plan. Sign (or develop) 2nd line centers to skate between our group of (potentially) 5 first line wingers. The line drivers would be the wingers because that is where the elite talent on the roster is. By going with the budget approach at center, it allows us to keep our depth at wing and defense. To be succinct, "the plan" is "build a team that doesn't pretend the salary cap doesn't exist."

 

[bleedblue94]

Players with NTC get moved all the time. It's one thing to allow a team to trade you somewhere with multiple years on your contract, but this would literally be a couple of months. There would be no real move involved. A couple months in a hotel and then back to his home to figure out his offseason strategy. He gets a crack at a post-season run with a contender, and we get some futures. The only thing worse than signing him for too much is letting him walk for nothing. The only area where things could get tricky is if the team is in the playoff picture. Even then, I'd rather let Strome walk for nothing and finish the year with him and Chytil as the two Cs. Zib can/should bring a haul at the trade deadline at 50%.

What is his incentive to accept such a trade from a business standpoint? Say he accepts a trade and struggles w his new team. It will hurt his payday. Why would he take that risk and as you say live out of a hotel for a few months. It can't be a situation of he shouldnt have an issue with it. He is in control, he needs a real incentive to waive it

 

[bleedblue94]

Players with NTC get moved all the time. It's one thing to allow a team to trade you somewhere with multiple years on your contract, but this would literally be a couple of months. There would be no real move involved. A couple months in a hotel and then back to his home to figure out his offseason strategy. He gets a crack at a post-season run with a contender, and we get some futures. The only thing worse than signing him for too much is letting him walk for nothing. The only area where things could get tricky is if the team is in the playoff picture. Even then, I'd rather let Strome walk for nothing and finish the year with him and Chytil as the two Cs. Zib can/should bring a haul at the trade deadline at 50%.

Editing to address your needlessly added snark. There 100% IS a plan. Sign (or develop) 2nd line centers to skate between our group of (potentially) 5 first line wingers. The line drivers would be the wingers because that is where the elite talent on the roster is. By going with the budget approach at center, it allows us to keep our depth at wing and defense. To be succinct, "the plan" is "build a team that doesn't pretend the salary cap doesn't exist."

Which is the last team to win the cup without some sort of top level center? It just doesn't happen. It's the Vegas recipe to invest in just wingers which has consistently failed with everyone in the league saying they need to improve their centers. Teams don't win with only elite wingers, you need centers too.

 

[bigdog16]

Nobody on my side of the screen is talking career numbers. Eichel came out of the gate faster, that’s certain. Too bad we’re not having this conversation in 2016.

Now, and since 2018, they’re basically statistical clones. Zibanejad has an edge in goal scoring for the past three or four seasons, he has both averaged more ice time and played more games than Eichel, has had a season with vastly higher G/60 than Eichel ever had….and again, because folks just can’t seem to get it, you take in the cost to acquire him and find Eichel ain’t worth it vs. Zib.

Again im not arguing that the cost to acquire Eichel vs Zibanejad is a better deal than just keeping Zib. I hear you there. But straight up Eichel is for sure a better player than Zib, not close

 

[bleedblue94]

Again im not arguing that the cost to acquire Eichel vs Zibanejad is a better deal than just keeping Zib. I hear you there. But straight up Eichel is for sure a better player than Zib, not close

People have just forgotten how good he can be. They just remember the guy playing hurt at the start of the year and still put up 18pts in 21 games on a horrific team

 

[jay from jersey]

What is his incentive to accept such a trade from a business standpoint? Say he accepts a trade and struggles w his new team. It will hurt his payday. Why would he take that risk and as you say live out of a hotel for a few months. It can't be a situation of he shouldnt have an issue with it. He is in control, he needs a real incentive to waive it

Because in his fantasy land it’s that easy to move him at 50% and just sign malkin in the offseason. Cause that’s realistic. Oh wait it’s not

 

[jay from jersey]

What is his incentive to accept such a trade from a business standpoint? Say he accepts a trade and struggles w his new team. It will hurt his payday. Why would he take that risk and as you say live out of a hotel for a few months. It can't be a situation of he shouldnt have an issue with it. He is in control, he needs a real incentive to waive it

There is none, Zibby will do whatever his agent tells him that’s going to make him more money

 

[smoneil]

Which is the last team to win the cup without some sort of top level center? It just doesn't happen. It's the Vegas recipe to invest in just wingers which has consistently failed with everyone in the league saying they need to improve their centers. Teams don't win with only elite wingers, you need centers too.

I can flip the script just as easily--when was the last time there has been a team this deep with wingers that are all potentially first line guys? Also, Kucherov pretty much just willed TB to the Cup. They have Point as well, but Kucherov was the big difference maker in every series.

Also, I never said don't get any centers. I said get 2nd line centers. Not because I think it's all the rage these days, but because this team can't afford anything more.

I'll ask you the same question JayfromJersey keeps ignoring. You want to bring in top 20 centers? Fine. List the multiple important players we're going to give away in the next two years to make it work for the cap. Because with Zib and Eichel, we're going to be at least 15 million over the cap as soon as next summer, and it only gets worse from there. So who will it be? Kakko, Kravtsov, Miller, and Jones? Who else are we cutting? If you go with one or the other, we're STILL at least 5 million over the cap. You two keep attacking me like I just don't WANT great centers. Show me how it can work with the salary cap without decimating what was built in the rebuild and I'll gleefully sign on to your plan. The numbers just don't work.

 

[jay from jersey]

Players with NTC get moved all the time. It's one thing to allow a team to trade you somewhere with multiple years on your contract, but this would literally be a couple of months. There would be no real move involved. A couple months in a hotel and then back to his home to figure out his offseason strategy. He gets a crack at a post-season run with a contender, and we get some futures. The only thing worse than signing him for too much is letting him walk for nothing. The only area where things could get tricky is if the team is in the playoff picture. Even then, I'd rather let Strome walk for nothing and finish the year with him and Chytil as the two Cs. Zib can/should bring a haul at the trade deadline at 50%.

Editing to address your needlessly added snark. There 100% IS a plan. Sign (or develop) 2nd line centers to skate between our group of (potentially) 5 first line wingers. The line drivers would be the wingers because that is where the elite talent on the roster is. By going with the budget approach at center, it allows us to keep our depth at wing and defense. To be succinct, "the plan" is "build a team that doesn't pretend the salary cap doesn't exist."

No one is ignoring the cap. We are discussing the benefits and drawbacks of Eichel/Zibby for next season and beyond. What YOU would do doesn’t really matter. What Drury plans to do does. How do you know malkin would even want to leave Pitt? Maybe him and Crosby are thunder buddies for life?
Being a realist, I’m trying to think what drury is going to do going fwd. these are his 2 most likely options for the center position. Odds are he resigns Zibby long term, and that’s fine, but the rewards of trading for Eichel whose better and younger and then trying to recoup something on the back end for Zibby might be the better way to go.
There is 0 scenario, where Drury doesn’t make a deal for Eichel, and lets Zibby walk or hold his feet to the fire on a trade with a NMC because @smoneil thinks it’s a bad idea and he would try to sign malkin for 2 years in the offseason

 

[smoneil]

Because in his fantasy land it’s that easy to move him at 50% and just sign malkin in the offseason. Cause that’s realistic. Oh wait it’s not

Hey captain realism, maybe you can stop throwing stones until you stop ignoring the salary cap. You're the one who--in the BEST case scenario--lobbied for moves that would put the team 15 million over the cap in a year or two.

But no. I'm not realistic because I want to trade a pending UFA with a NTC (something that happens pretty regularly) and suggested signing an older player to a short term contract (wait...that's ALSO something that happens all the time).

 

[jay from jersey]

Hey captain realism, maybe you can stop throwing stones until you stop ignoring the salary cap. You're the one who--in the BEST case scenario--lobbied for moves that would put the team 15 million over the cap in a year or two.

But no. I'm not realistic because I want to trade a pending UFA with a NTC (something that happens pretty regularly) and suggested signing an older player to a short term contract (wait...that's ALSO something that happens all the time).

Eichel would be the replacement for Zibby at 1C in the event that Zibbys contract demands would make keeping the 2 impossible. What’s unrealistic about that sparky?
Let’s compare it to another 24 year old situation that’s purely speculative

 

[wafflepadsave]

I think if Eichel were a Free Agent it would be enough to sway some votes.

I think it's the health, on top of the cost to acquire, and then having to ship out backup plans to accommodate the salary that creates an uneasy situation for many people.

Any one of those things can give pause. You stack them on top of each other and it starts to become a little daunting.

Yet, it seems the route the Rangers prefer?

 

[smoneil]

No one is ignoring the cap. We are discussing the benefits and drawbacks of Eichel/Zibby for next season and beyond. What YOU would do doesn’t really matter. What Drury plans to do does. How do you know malkin would even want to leave Pitt? Maybe him and Crosby are thunder buddies for life?
Being a realist, I’m trying to think what drury is going to do going fwd. these are his 2 most likely options for the center position. Odds are he resigns Zibby long term, and that’s fine, but the rewards of trading for Eichel whose better and younger and then trying to recoup something on the back end for Zibby might be the better way to go.
There is 0 scenario, where Drury doesn’t make a deal for Eichel, and lets Zibby walk or hold his feet to the fire on a trade with a NMC because @smoneil thinks it’s a bad idea and he would try to sign malkin for 2 years in the offseason

Get off your high f***ing horse. Nobody here is Chris Drury, and nobody here can speak to what Drury would/could/should do. We are ALL speaking for ourselves and what we would do. You trying to frame YOUR opinion of what YOU would do as the pure undistilled essence of Drury's will and intention is nothing more than arrogant bullshit. You are not a f***ing realist if you only consider the forthcoming season when deciding what you would do regarding an addition (via trade or re-signing) of a multi-year massive contract. "I'm not ignoring the salary cap. I'm just considering next year." Give me a f***ing break. You are ignoring the salary cap, because you don't like the fact that it screws over your whole plan in the next two years.

 

[bleedblue94]

I can flip the script just as easily--when was the last time there has been a team this deep with wingers that are all potentially first line guys? Also, Kucherov pretty much just willed TB to the Cup. They have Point as well, but Kucherov was the big difference maker in every series.

Also, I never said don't get any centers. I said get 2nd line centers. Not because I think it's all the rage these days, but because this team can't afford anything more.

I'll ask you the same question JayfromJersey keeps ignoring. You want to bring in top 20 centers? Fine. List the multiple important players we're going to give away in the next two years to make it work for the cap. Because with Zib and Eichel, we're going to be at least 15 million over the cap as soon as next summer, and it only gets worse from there. So who will it be? Kakko, Kravtsov, Miller, and Jones? Who else are we cutting? If you go with one or the other, we're STILL at least 5 million over the cap. You two keep attacking me like I just don't WANT great centers. Show me how it can work with the salary cap without decimating what was built in the rebuild and I'll gleefully sign on to your plan. The numbers just don't work.

So you think tb wins without point and Cirelli, also assuming stammer doesn't cover somewhat if those guys just disappeared? Come on that's just a ridiculous assertion.

Your flip the script comment just shows you have no example of a team winning with not significant top center on the roster.

As for the team I would much rather invest into a top center and sacrifice a winger. I don't know how Jones even makes it into your post, he is complete trade fodder. The point you are trying to make is the exact reason that I don't see any of our young players getting long term contracts coming out of elc. I've had this argument with many people on here who claim we would sign chytil and others for long term deals instead of bringing them.

This organization has always bridged players and the fact we have so many top kids coming through now basically guarantees they will be getting bridge deals to keep the band together for the next 2-4 years and then as our current big cost guys either start having contracts expire OR have ntcs expiring those guys will be moved out so the kids coming off bridge deals can get paid prior to ufa status.

If you listen to people around the league the way ufa just happened w the ridiculous contracts it signaled to a lot of people that while the cap will be flat for now, the teams seem to be expecting it to jump substantially once it starts moving again in 3 or so years. That's an even bigger reason to expect bridge deals that are built the way the werenski and tkachuk bridge deals were where they required massive QO at the end to ensure they would get their paydays. This is a big part of why I don't even expect fox to sign long term bc if he bridges he stands to make more money long term as well.

 

[jay from jersey]

Hey captain realism, maybe you can stop throwing stones until you stop ignoring the salary cap. You're the one who--in the BEST case scenario--lobbied for moves that would put the team 15 million over the cap in a year or two.

But no. I'm not realistic because I want to trade a pending UFA with a NTC (something that happens pretty regularly) and suggested signing an older player to a short term contract (wait...that's ALSO something that happens all the time).

The situation that you proposed would have the rangers going into the offseason with no centers banking on malkin to sign a 2 year deal here. Do you know how ridiculous that is?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

None of those guys are available. Except chytil. I have a feeling Barron will still likely be your 3C
He’s a different list with all injured Centers. Eichel still better then most, and they’ll all cost almost the same in a year.
McDavid, Crosby, Malkin, Hertl, Seguin etc

any option we can think of Is going to make 9-10 mill a year in the next year or so. So it’s either full steam ahead with him or try to trade for an eventual replacement.
Hertl
Couturier
Larkin ( 2 years left) prob not available
Cirelli not available
Barkov - I wish
All these guys are going to cost 9 mill or more

I don't think Barron is a C in this league.

Of the other options, Only Hertl gives me pause.

 

[jay from jersey]

Get off your high f***ing horse. Nobody here is Chris Drury, and nobody here can speak to what Drury would/could/should do. We are ALL speaking for ourselves and what we would do. You trying to frame YOUR opinion of what YOU would do as the pure undistilled essence of Drury's will and intention is nothing more that arrogant bullshit. You are not a f***ing realist if you only consider the forthcoming season when deciding what you would do regarding an addition (via trade or re-signing) of a multi-year massive contract. "I'm not ignoring the salary cap. I'm just considering next year." Give me a f***ing break. You are ignoring the salary cap, because you don't like the fact that if screws over your whole plan in the next two years.

Get off your high f***ing horse. Nobody here is Chris Drury, and nobody here can speak to what Drury would/could/should do. We are ALL speaking for ourselves and what we would do. You trying to frame YOUR opinion of what YOU would do as the pure undistilled essence of Drury's will and intention is nothing more that arrogant bullshit. You are not a f***ing realist if you only consider the forthcoming season when deciding what you would do regarding an addition (via trade or re-signing) of a multi-year massive contract. "I'm not ignoring the salary cap. I'm just considering next year." Give me a f***ing break. You are ignoring the salary cap, because you don't like the fact that if screws over your whole plan in the next two years.

For 2 days you’ve been ranting and raving like a psychotic to try and devalue Eichel every which way possible by only bringing up negative shit about his surgery, events from history, that he’s so fragile the next hit is gona end his career, and on and on. The fact of the matter is either the rangers are resigning Zibby long term (likely) or trading for eichel( maybe). No way drury lets both out of his grasp with the way the teams currently constructed. So take a Xanax and relax tiny tim

 

[Boris Zubov]

I don't think Barron is a C in this league.

Of the other options, Only Hertl gives me pause.

Seguin is way more of a question mark than Hertl. Seguin looks completely finished to me, injuries have taken their toll.

 

[jay from jersey]

I don't think Barron is a C in this league.

Of the other options, Only Hertl gives me pause.

I dunno, the played him there all the games at Hartford for a reason. I think he gets the chytil treatment. I have a feeling that’s where they want his big body, in the middle. I think Goodrow is the best line mate he could have to bring him along too.
Just strikes me as one of those guys whose going to take off under Gallant

 

[smoneil]

The situation that you proposed would have the rangers going into the offseason with no centers banking on malkin to sign a 2 year deal here. Do you know how ridiculous that is?

It would have the team shopping for ONE center. They would still have Chytil, Barron, Rooney, and would need to sign/trade for a good young 2C or a fading older 1C that might still have a couple good seasons in them. I mentioned Malkin as an example among a wide array of options (including Zibanejad if his ask came down). You and bleedblue94 keep mischaracterizing everything I say (me saying "Kuch was the driving force for TB's win" suddenly becomes "You think TB would have won without Point and Cirelli?"--which is also interesting, as Cirelli is EXACTLY the kind of 2nd line center I'm advocating for).

The bottom line is that you label everything you don't like as "ridiculous" or "impossible" solely because it isn't the exact thing you want to happen. I would LOVE for the Cap to go away and see the Rangers add a couple of 1C's to go with their group of top wingers and elite young defense. It isn't going to happen. The cap isn't going away. That means what's left are non-ideal solutions. Bargain shopping in the center aisle. Or, buying big in the center aisle and slashing the rest of the roster to make the money work.

You're getting all pissy with me because I favor keeping the rebuild intact. But your alternative is to pretend that you can keep all or even most of the current young roster while ALSO spending big. You can't have both. Well, you can for one year. Do you expect this team to win the Cup next year?