Speculation: Roster Building Frenzy Part XX

[jay from jersey]

If I've been "ranting" then all three of us have been. That doesn't change the fact that you tried to frame your opinion as the essence of what Drury "wants." You keep reaching and stretching and ignoring any factual information that doesn't result in you getting the new toy that you so desperately want. What you call "devaluing Eichel" I call "being realistic." I'm sure you would prefer it if, like you, I ignored the injury and ignored the cap implications and ignored the fact that--even when healthy--he hasn't produced up to his outsized reputation. Taking note of those things isn't "devaluing." It's "considering the whole picture." It's what people do before deciding on something that could have that huge an impact. And it's something I very much hope Drury is doing. And yeah, you continue to ignore the salary cap. But go ahead and call me more names. That will surely show everyone who the "raving psychotic" in this discussion has been.

no my opinion is based is logic and reason. These GMs aren’t going to delay cause of cap worries thinking 5-6 years down the road. He’s not going to not deal for Eichel, and simultaneously let Zibby walk/trade him at the deadline this year. That’s not grounded in reality. Especially when playoffs and beyond is the goal. You’ve went from harping on a point of how bad a move Eichel is and moving the goal posts to worse more unrealistic instances. It’s clown shoes

 

[bobbop]

The longer the situation in Buffalo drags on, the leverage shifts to Eichel. He is not going to have the fusion. The Sabres may have the right to approve the surgery but Eichel can’t be obligated to have their preferred surgery. The clock is ticking on the 2021-22 season and Eichel’s impending NTC on 7/1/22. This is not going to turn out well for the Sabres and Drury is smart to bide his time. I’m quite sure the Rangers have a good understanding of the artificial disc procedure and what it would mean.

Patience, patience, patience!

I should have been more clear here. I don’t favor acquiring Eichel. Never have, never will. But if there is going to be a deal, I want it to be as cheap as possible.

 

[Alluckks]

My sense is, he could develop into a Blake Coleman type maybe. The thing that makes him different is that he really hits hard and has made some borderline hits in his time. Which isn't always a bad quality in today's game. The big thing with him is that his game is not yet rounded out. Coleman is absolutely a more complete player. Blais has a bunch of work to do to become that dependable player whose on the ice at the end of games, in his own zone. He doesn't PK. If he takes another step in his development he could become more of a poor man's Adam Graves.

In fact, I would like to see Graves work with him.

He could be the next Blake Coleman or he could end up being a less skilled, slower Chris Kreider who only contributes in certain ways. I would prefer the Blake Coleman type, but if Blais can become a stand in front of the net on the PP guy that could be a real big plus. Esp if Kreider ever ends up moving on.

This seems like a pretty fair opinion.

So, then it begs the question: who is going to be the Rangers Gourde? I could easily see the idea that they wanted to replicate that very strong Tampa 3rd line.

Was Danault being targeted for that reason? Barron? Dvorak?

 

[Alluckks]

Just a fun exercise in offseason experimentation. Let's start with the premise that the Rangers 3rd line MUST replicate the Tampa 3rd line, substituting Blais for Coleman.

I'll make a trade that some won't be a fan of - Kravstov + Georgiev for Dvorak

I'll do another thing that people won't like but I'll be doing it to facilitate the initial premise, the 3rd line.
- Laf moves to RW (as was mentioned briefly by Gallant)

Panarin Chytil Laf
Kreider Zib Kakko
Blais Dvorak Goodrow

4th line is some essence of Barron, Rooney, Hunt, Reaves

Strome could be dealt for futures, or for a combination of futures plus a good bottom line player (Seattle has quite a few and have been mentioned in rumors, for instance)

 

[smoneil]

no my opinion is based is logic and reason. These GMs aren’t going to delay cause of cap worries thinking 5-6 years down the road. He’s not going to not deal for Eichel, and simultaneously let Zibby walk/trade him at the deadline this year. That’s not grounded in reality. Especially when playoffs and beyond is the goal. You’ve went from harping on a point of how bad a move Eichel is and moving the goal posts to worse more unrealistic instances. It’s clown shoes

Not 5-6 years. Two years. I showed you the math. You first said it wasn't true (when it was there plain as day, even assuming the best case scenarios). Then you started ignoring it completely. Then you got pissy that I kept pointing out that your plans won't work with the cap. And now you are back to ONLY considering whether the cap will work next season, and that GMs don't care about anything beyond that (which must be true, because as you posted earlier, your opinion is so f***ing brilliant, that it must be delivered straight into your brain by Drury himself).

You don't use logic. You don't use reason. I literally teach both of those topics. You see what you want to see, ignore what you don't, and circle back around to arguments that have already been soundly refuted. All while resorting to name calling in every other post.

You aren't worth my time. I'll leave you with the same point I made in the first place before firing up the ignore list--if you want to have your shiny new toys at 1C, you'd best get comfortable identifying ~60% of our high end prospects that you are willing to give up for nothing in exchange, because that will be the cost in a flat cap world. And it is a cost that will start coming due in the next year or two. If your preference does turn out to be the way the team goes, I hope you'll be thrilled with a one or a two line team (less once Eichel and/or Zib go on the IR and Goodrow and Rooney are centering our top lines) and scrubs on the 2nd/3rd d-pairs. I'm sure the first round exits will be scintillating.

 

[smoneil]

You can't laud kucherov and suggest tb won bc of their strength on wings as an example of how we should proceed while simultaneously ignoring that point and Cirelli were on the team, that's just laughable.

As is lobbying for a Cirelli type to be the primary center here (if we don't have a top center going forward like youre advocating for) and dismiss that he did infact play behind point. As you say "funny that, eh?"

That's sheer stupidity and you literally contradicting yourself.

A team stacked with wing depth just won again bc they had a 1c and a 2c. Not two 2c's. You blow your own argument and example up.

And again I ask you what was the last team to win that was build through the wings without a top center. You keep avoiding this...

You are the one who brought up Cirelli in that post. You brought him up as a "gotcha" that top centers are necessary to win a Cup. He is not a top center. Stepan was not a top center. TB won based on their depth, defense, goaltending, and one absurdly talented winger who dominated throughout. They could have lost Point and still won the Cup. It wasn't particularly difficult for them this year. Also, for as much as you are trying to put Point up there with Kucherov as a driving force for the Cup, did you know that 14 of Point's 23 points involved Kucherov? He was only involved in 9 goals without Kucherov. It's almost like having a dominant wing improves your production. Don't believe me? Take a look at Point's regular season totals. 90+ points three seasons ago and still a ppg pace last year with Kucherov on his wing. This year, with Kuch playing dead for the regular season, Point's numbers were way down. 48 in 56, to be exact. If you want that contextualized a bit, that's almost as good as what Pavel Buchnevich put up this year. To win a cup, a team needs depth and line drivers. There is no rule that those line drivers must be centers. Kucherov is one. Panarin is one. The hope is that Laf and maybe Kakko can become line drivers as well, as that's where the elite talent is on this roster.

That's what was missing from the Rangers teams I mentioned earlier who were right on the cusp without a top 20 center OR a top 20 winger OR the defensive depth/quality that this roster has. This roster has even better depth AND a couple of line drivers. If the earlier Rangers teams could routinely get right up to the cusp, this team should be able to overcome not having a top 20 center fairly easily.

To answer your question, by the by, St. Louis was the last team to win the Cup without a top 15-20 center. ROR and Schenn are both low end 1c's/high end 2c's. ROR had a huge outlier year, but he's not usually a near ppg player. ROR/Schenn would be comparable to Larkin/Chytil or Malkin/Chytil, and the Rangers depth around the rest of the roster is better or at worst even with STL that year.

You're another one who has routinely misrepresented what I've written because of a myopic insistence on a plan that the team literally cannot afford. I'm done wasting time with either of you. We FINALLY get not one but TWO top 3 picks, but because you can't cosplay them as Crosby and Malkin in their prime, you're ready to tear it down to bring in yet another red-flag laden big name who is only available because of all the problems he has. It's like the kid who gets a free Mercedes and intentionally crashes it because he really wanted the used Lamborghini with flood damage.

 

[RangerBoy]

Vince Mercogliano has a podcast. New Ice City. He said he heard a couple of deals had agreed to deals with Kevyn Adams but Buffalo wouldn't retain any money. The Rangers were not one of those teams. There is nothing going on with the Rangers. The Rangers and Sabres have not had any trade discussions recently.

Mercogliano had on a guest from Buffalo. Bill Hoppe https://twitter.com/BillHoppeNHL

Hoppe doesn't believe an Eichel trade is happening soon. Eichel could be on the team in September when training camps starts. There is a lot of pressure on the Sabres management to get a quality return for Eichel after the Ryan O'Reilly disaster. Buffalo wants a lot for Eichel. They want big assets in return for Eichel. They want a Alexis LaFreniere or Quinton Byfield type of player in return for Eichel plus a #1 pick plus another top prospect plus another asset plus another asset.

Adams is waiting for a team to give him that type of young player in the trade. Trevor Zegras type of player.



Hoppe said it's very possible Sabres want to ship Eichel to a team in the west. If the Rangers gave Adams what he wanted, the Sabres would take the offer.

This knucklehead still needs neck surgery.

 

[jay from jersey]

Not 5-6 years. Two years. I showed you the math. You first said it wasn't true (when it was there plain as day, even assuming the best case scenarios). Then you started ignoring it completely. Then you got pissy that I kept pointing out that your plans won't work with the cap. And now you are back to ONLY considering whether the cap will work next season, and that GMs don't care about anything beyond that (which must be true, because as you posted earlier, your opinion is so f***ing brilliant, that it must be delivered straight into your brain by Drury himself).

You don't use logic. You don't use reason. I literally teach both of those topics. You see what you want to see, ignore what you don't, and circle back around to arguments that have already been soundly refuted. All while resorting to name calling in every other post.

You aren't worth my time. I'll leave you with the same point I made in the first place before firing up the ignore list--if you want to have your shiny new toys at 1C, you'd best get comfortable identifying ~60% of our high end prospects that you are willing to give up for nothing in exchange, because that will be the cost in a flat cap world. And it is a cost that will start coming due in the next year or two. If your preference does turn out to be the way the team goes, I hope you'll be thrilled with a one or a two line team (less once Eichel and/or Zib go on the IR and Goodrow and Rooney are centering our top lines) and scrubs on the 2nd/3rd d-pairs. I'm sure the first round exits will be scintillating.

If you teach both topic no wonder the education system has gone to shit. If you think you argument or your“ Logic” is based in reality of going into next offseason without a signed 1C I don’t know what to tell you except your flat out wrong. You can keep crying about it, by all means. I don’t block people. Even when they’ve been insufferable as you’ve been for the last 2 days running down Eichel and his talents. The rangers are interested, will remain interested. Depending on cost to get and health, like I’ve said from the beginning. Time will tell whose right I’m the end. But until then, I’m good. You can have they last word.
There’s no GM in the league that just lets 1C talent walk out the door when they are trying to make the playoffs and beyond. If things truly happened like that, there would be more to choose from in the offseason.

 

[jay from jersey]

Vince Mercogliano has a podcast. New Ice City. He said he heard a couple of deals had agreed to deals with Kevyn Adams but Buffalo wouldn't retain any money. The Rangers were not one of those teams. There is nothing going on with the Rangers. The Rangers and Sabres have not had any trade discussions recently.

Mercogliano had on a guest from Buffalo. Bill Hoppe https://twitter.com/BillHoppeNHL

Hoppe doesn't believe an Eichel trade is happening soon. Eichel could be on the team in September when training camps starts. There is a lot of pressure on the Sabres management to get a quality return for Eichel after the Ryan O'Reilly disaster. Buffalo wants a lot for Eichel. They want big assets in return for Eichel. They want a Alexis LaFreniere or Quinton Byfield type of player in return for Eichel plus a #1 pick plus another top prospect plus another asset plus another asset.

Adams is waiting for a team to give him that type of young player in the trade. Trevor Zegras type of player.



Hoppe said it's very possible Sabres want to ship Eichel to a team in the west. If the Rangers gave Adams what he wanted, the Sabres would take the offer.

This knucklehead still needs neck surgery.

Yea that ain’t gonna happen. Looks like Adams is ready to chalk most of this year up as a loss for Eichel contract wise. His target date still remains the same, to trade him before his NMC/ bonus kick in. I’m guessing he thinks maybe if he becomes fully healthy in that time he’ll get more. But he’s still gotta get the surgery so I don’t know how that situation gets resolved. Dangerous strategy, keeping the soap opera going for a whole season while attempting a culture change. Plus I’m guessing he’s going to have to strip him from his captaincy

 

[Blais to Win]

Again im not arguing that the cost to acquire Eichel vs Zibanejad is a better deal than just keeping Zib. I hear you there. But straight up Eichel is for sure a better player than Zib, not close

It is actually extremely close over the past seasons, leaning toward Zibanejad for production, and if you're the acquiring team and not into risky injuries, giving up tons of youth, and eventually letting our NMC protected 1C go for nothing, maybe completely wrong.

Edit: thank you for clarifying your position on the costs of actually getting Eichel. Got it.

 

[CLW]

The Rangers have a bit of work to make the pieces fit.

If we look at pairings that seem to have natural chemistry Laf and Zib go together, Panarin and Strome fit together as do Chytil and Kakko, and maybe Chytil and Panarin. I'm not sure Panarin and Zib fit for example, or Kakko and Zib. On paper a Panarin- Eichel - Kakko line would be insane, IF Eichel makes it to the Rangers and IF he can play without further issues and ignoring all the other IFs.

What is new this season is Gallant as head coach. He has made it clear that if you don't bring a two way game and work your butt off both ways you won't play. Looking at the possible lines we have:

(Adjusted for chemistry, but not adjusted for Gallant hockey)

Laf - Zib - Kravtsov
Panarin - Strome** - XX
Kreider - Chytil - Kakko

** rumored to be on the block

Since Buchnevich was rather brutally yeeted, and Goodrow and Blais brought in we need to find a way to work in Goodrow at least. Chytil and Kakko are also said to be moved up the lines, and potentially Laf to rw:

Kreider - Zib - Laf
Panarin - Chytil - Kakko
Goodrow - XX - Kravtsov

I put Kreider, instead of Panarin, with Zib and Laf mostly to make the line a bit heavier and knowing that Kreider and Zib have chemistry from before, so Laf moved to the rw becomes the new Buch. Otherwise Kreider - Chytil - Kakko were very good together last season, in the short sample they had before Kreider's back spams put an end to his season.

If Strome stays with Panarin the RW on that line will have to be the "Fast" replacement, probably Blais, but that pushes Kakko and Kravtsov down the lines again for no good reason.

It's clear this team is still very much in transition, especially with a new coach and new tactical approach. To me it seems clear a patient, organic approach will lead to the best results down the road. The Rangers can try to create a contender overnight - the "buy Tampa's third line + send the farm/future to Buffalo for Eichel" method - but that seems artificial and contrived.

 

[Blais to Win]

View attachment 459419

I love these charts.

 

[RangerBoy]

Yea that ain’t gonna happen. Looks like Adams is ready to chalk most of this year up as a loss for Eichel contract wise. His target date still remains the same, to trade him before his NMC/ bonus kick in. I’m guessing he thinks maybe if he becomes fully healthy in that time he’ll get more. But he’s still gotta get the surgery so I don’t know how that situation gets resolved. Dangerous strategy, keeping the soap opera going for a whole season while attempting a culture change. Plus I’m guessing he’s going to have to strip him from his captaincy

Drury is in the Eichel mix if Buffalo just says enough and we will take the best offer on the table. Just take the best deal and move on. It doesn't seem like Buffalo will be doing that. Eichel needs neck surgery. He wants the artificial disc replacement surgery while the Sabres want the acquiring team to assume those discussions. You deal with that. If Eichel is still a Sabre when training camp starts in 5-6 weeks, what happens with the surgery? The Sabres are being stubborn on the surgery. Just let the player have the surgery. A team isn't trading for Eichel and not allowing him to have the surgery. They will inherit the Sabres problem. I saw where the Wild would allow Eichel to have the disc surgery because that's his personal choice. Eichel got hurt on the Sabres watch. They don't want to assume any of the risk involved with the surgery. They don't want to retain any money. Give us all of your best assets and you worry about the guy with a bad neck.

Drury could be using the Eichel speculation in his contract discussions with Zibanejad's brother. The cap will be flat for this coming season and two more seasons. We want to keep Mika but we can make a deal for Eichel and move on from Mika. Eichel is younger. Aging curves. It will be hard to keep both players. We have to pay Shesterkin and Fox. If Kakko blows up this season, we have to deal with him next summer. If we can't make a deal with Mika, we will move on. That type of thing.

I read Zibanejad got married a few weeks ago. I don't think he wants to leave NY. His wife seems like the perfect Manhattan girl. I don't think she wants to live in Minnesota. She has been living with him in Manhattan for a while.

WAGtober Meet the WAGS: Nathalie Boucher — WAGS REDEFINED

A little leverage doesn't hurt.

 

[NYSPORTS]

So you invent something I didn't say and then call me ridiculous for saying it? For f***'s sake with you two. Also, note your addition of Cirelli? The EXACT kind of center I've been lobbying for? Funny that, eh?



No, it doesn't. As I've pointed out--and you've ignored--several times, the NY Rangers made several deep runs with a roster built on strong goaltending, depth on defense, and multiple 2nd-line quality scoring lines. That roster won a President's trophy. That roster went to 3 ECFs. That roster went to the SCF. This roster is deeper among the forwards. It is deeper on defense. It also has an excellent goaltender. And Chytil and a FA signing or trade have the capability of being better than Stepan. In other words, those teams came very close, and this team has the talent to blow them out of the water.



Full stop. It's not investing in a top center and sacrificing A winger (unless you plan on trading Panarin). You'll be sacrificing some combination of wingers and defensemen that add up to 5 to 15 million dollars (depending on if you plan to keep either or both of Zib/Eichel, and assuming that Strome and Chytil are already gone). And that will only buy you about two years until you have to do it again. It's not about "oh, we'll just bridge the kids." It's "we won't have money to even bridge all the kids." By the time Trouba and Kreider can be moved, we will have lost a good majority of all but the VERY top young players (ie: Fox, Laf, maybe another young defenseman).



I wouldn't try to predict the future based on how spendy NHL GMs can be. Their spending almost killed the league in the early 2000s. They knew it, but they kept spending anyway. They, like people on this board, just can't help themselves. Instant gratification always trumps long-term planning. The decision on the flat cap won't be made by the GMs. It will be made by the owners. And you can bet your ass that the owners won't come off the flat cap until they get every dime back that they lost last year. If anything, the Delta and Delta+ variant makes it possible that we see MORE lockdowns and revenue loss.

Great post!!!! - reads like a much needed common sense vaccine with an emphasis on reality.

 

[Blais to Win]

I read Zibanejad got married a few weeks ago. I don't think he wants to leave NY. His wife seems like the perfect Manhattan girl. I don't think she wants to live in Minnesota. She has been living with him in Manhattan for a while.

WAGtober Meet the WAGS: Nathalie Boucher — WAGS REDEFINED

A little leverage doesn't hurt.

Isn't his gf/wife an ex-Swedish soccer player and television announcer? Doesn't she live in Sweden?

Girlfriend sends internet into a meltdown after Mika Zibanejad's historical five-goal game

If he got married a few weeks ago it was to her. She's also active on Twitter and comments on his games regularly. She seems pretty awesome, actually.

Edit: perhaps they're into polyamory.

 

[duhmetreE]

Were those rumblings substantiated about Mika going vegan or something? He changed his diet and he came into camp real light/weak? Was it Michiletti or Maloney that kept bringing it up?

Not a proponent of vegan but if he's doing something like Tom Brady, I can get behind it. It'd give me more confidence in signing him long term.

 

[Blais to Win]

About the cap situation next year. So far, we're at $67million. With Shesterkin, that's $73 million. Add the bonus overage and where are we? $75-76?

To me, 22-23 looks even tougher for the cap, meaning keeping only one 1C. If we get Eichel, Zibanejad is gone, in other words.

Just good to know this so proposals can deduct the appropriate cap space for whatever preferred player moving forward.

 

[duhmetreE]

About the cap situation next year. So far, we're at $67million. With Shesterkin, that's $73 million. Add the bonus overage and where are we? $75-76?

To me, 22-23 looks even tougher for the cap, meaning keeping only one 1C. If we get Eichel, Zibanejad is gone, in other words.

Just good to know this so proposals can deduct the appropriate cap space for whatever preferred player moving forward.

Stay the course.

The battle now is to try and shave some numbers off of Fox and Mika. If Drury can get Fox at $8M for 8 years and Mika at 8ish for 6 years, that'd be amazing. I just hope he doesn't give them max offer. I have a feeling Lafreniere is going to get a fat contract in 2 years.

 

[cheech70]

Vince Mercogliano has a podcast. New Ice City. He said he heard a couple of deals had agreed to deals with Kevyn Adams but Buffalo wouldn't retain any money. The Rangers were not one of those teams. There is nothing going on with the Rangers. The Rangers and Sabres have not had any trade discussions recently.

Mercogliano had on a guest from Buffalo. Bill Hoppe https://twitter.com/BillHoppeNHL

Hoppe doesn't believe an Eichel trade is happening soon. Eichel could be on the team in September when training camps starts. There is a lot of pressure on the Sabres management to get a quality return for Eichel after the Ryan O'Reilly disaster. Buffalo wants a lot for Eichel. They want big assets in return for Eichel. They want a Alexis LaFreniere or Quinton Byfield type of player in return for Eichel plus a #1 pick plus another top prospect plus another asset plus another asset.

Adams is waiting for a team to give him that type of young player in the trade. Trevor Zegras type of player.



Hoppe said it's very possible Sabres want to ship Eichel to a team in the west. If the Rangers gave Adams what he wanted, the Sabres would take the offer.

This knucklehead still needs neck surgery.

Very good news ...Strome + Filip > Eichel

 

[jacko23]

...And, as this team's own history has shown, you don't need to have elite centers to contend for a Cup.

Hard to say. Small sample size.

 

[Blais to Win]

Stay the course.

The battle now is to try and shave some numbers off of Fox and Mika. If Drury can get Fox at $8M for 8 years and Mika at 8ish for 6 years, that'd be amazing. I just hope he doesn't give them max offer. I have a feeling Lafreniere is going to get a fat contract in 2 years.

Yes. We’re seeing really positive signs all across the lineup. So, staying the course would be the rational thing to do. However, I do understand that now that Dolan’s involved there’s all this confusion about what the NYR will actually do.

 

[Levitate]

Were those rumblings substantiated about Mika going vegan or something? He changed his diet and he came into camp real light/weak? Was it Michiletti or Maloney that kept bringing it up?

Not a proponent of vegan but if he's doing something like Tom Brady, I can get behind it. It'd give me more confidence in signing him long term.

He came to camp with COVID
It's hard to say what kind of effect any change in diet and lifestyle may have had on him when he obviously (and admittedly) spent most of the year trying to just get back to "normal"

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I read Zibanejad got married a few weeks ago. I don't think he wants to leave NY. His wife seems like the perfect Manhattan girl. I don't think she wants to live in Minnesota. She has been living with him in Manhattan for a while.

WAGtober Meet the WAGS: Nathalie Boucher — WAGS REDEFINED

A little leverage doesn't hurt.

Zibanejad is married to Swedish former footballer Irma Helin who now works for Swedish television.

They have been together 11 years.

 

[duhmetreE]

He came to camp with COVID
It's hard to say what kind of effect any change in diet and lifestyle may have had on him when he obviously (and admittedly) spent most of the year trying to just get back to "normal"

He got COVID right before camp. He was already lighter. Obviously, coming in lighter then getting COVID, the situation is that much worse.

we don’t know the details because the media didn’t have direct access

 

[Levitate]

I mean, I don't recall anything about his condition leading up to getting COVID. It's possible someone said something though. Honestly something I hate about Maloney because he's a giant dick about any player doing something he doesn't like. Zibanejad playing lighter could be good thing and there's no reason why getting COVID would be worse because he was "lighter"
We dont' really know because his entire season was drastically impacted by having COVID