Player Discussion Ridly Greig (LW) 28th Overall

[Masked]

I don't understand why these kids aren't training harder in the gym. It's literally worth millions of dollars. My oldest is two weeks younger than Greig and is 5'11'' and 200 lbs at an absurdly low bodyfat. He trains because he loves to train. He can squat 44o lbs for reps, benches 315 and can dunk a basketball. It isn't magic. All you have to do is lift weights and eat right. If an NHL career was within grasp, how are these kids not training harder to get strong? It's mind boggling.

I suspect it is because they have trainers getting them to do more aerobic training or some silly version of weightlifting. The trainers do that because they don't know how to properly teach powerlifting or olympic weight lifting correctly.

Their calories can either be spent on building muscle or doing aerobic training and most players seem to think they need to do the aerobic training.

I will add that your son is probably more athletically gifted than the regular population. A vertical leap is not something you can really train and his ability to drunk a basketball at under 6' demonstrates he has some athletic gifts. Not that it really matters when we're comparing him to pro athletes who are inherently supremely gifted athletically.

Assen na yo!

 

[jbeck5]

Yes, there are exceptions where small players make it work. Certainly not the norm though. Again, this really shouldn't be a controversial opinion. It will be tough for a kid that weighs 170 soaking wet to make it as a center in the NHL, particularly if he's bad at the faceoff dot.

I don't think your center has to be that big or strong to play center.

Did we move Turris to the wing?

Todd white was a fine middle six center.

Pageau was a good center for us.

The list goes on. It matters more of how good and smart he is more than how big or strong he is.

He looks to be of the Mike peca mold (5'11, 181)

 

[TheDebater]

I don't think your center has to be that big or strong to play center.

Did we move Turris to the wing?

Todd white was a fine middle six center.

Pageau was a good center for us.

The list goes on. It matters more of how good and smart he is more than how big or strong he is.

He looks to be of the Mike peca mold (5'11, 181)

To add to that, when you have big wingers (Paul, Watson, Sanford, Sokolov, Tkachuk, even Formenton), then having a smaller centre is fine, everything balances out.

 

[Micklebot]

I don't think your center has to be that big or strong to play center.

Did we move Turris to the wing?

Todd white was a fine middle six center.

Pageau was a good center for us.

The list goes on. It matters more of how good and smart he is more than how big or strong he is.

He looks to be of the Mike peca mold (5'11, 181)

Both Turris and White had 20+ Pounds on Greig, and particularly in Turris' case, strength was always an issue holding him back. There will always be exceptions, but the point is he'll have to be an exception unless he gets bigger and stronger, he also already plays wing too, so the transition wouldn't be difficult.

 

[Micklebot]

To add to that, when you have big wingers (Paul, Watson, Sanford, Sokolov, Tkachuk, even Formenton), then having a smaller centre is fine, everything balances out.

No, not really. Center has very different responsibilities in the DZ, just having big wingers doesn't make it fine.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Greig is great, but he's gotta stop with the dirty hits. We can't have him being a playoff warrior if he gets us 5 min majors

 

[jbeck5]

Both Turris and White had 20+ Pounds on Greig, and particularly in Turris' case, strength was always an issue holding him back. There will always be exceptions, but the point is he'll have to be an exception unless he gets bigger and stronger, he also already plays wing too, so the transition wouldn't be difficult.

Well compare them a year after their draft and they were the same size.

Most important for a center is if he can skate. He needs to be able to skate up and down the ice.

Second most important factor is offensive and defensive awareness/hockey smarts. They need to know how to properly defend and cancel out opponents rushes, but also need to know how to break out and create offense and playmaker.

Third most important is puck skills. They need to be able to actually carry the puck and not lose it or bobble it all the time. Have to be able to actually get the puck on teammates sticks.

Then after all the important stuff, size and strength can come in after.

Turris was compared to Sakic when drafted. Basically the reason he didn't turn into Sakic was more based on skill and smarts than it was size and strength.

 

[TheDebater]

No, not really. Center has very different responsibilities in the DZ, just having big wingers doesn't make it fine.

I will not get into this too much because I am already on record suggesting Grieg needs to go back to junior and continue to develop because I see no rush in giving him the Curtis Lazar treatment and thrust him into the NHL at a young age.

With that said, you and I both know (without having to bring up player bios for you), that there are plenty of smaller centres in the league who do just fine and can handle it, and absolutely it helps having players on the wings who can help take on the physical burden in the D-zone when the other team is cycling.

Regardless, it would be a debate of semantics to go into it more than that, so I will re-state that the best place for Greig this season is back in the OHL.

 

[jbeck5]

No, not really. Center has very different responsibilities in the DZ, just having big wingers doesn't make it fine.

Hmm plenty of smaller centers succeed defensively. Skating ability, puck skills, and smarts are much more important to being good defensively than size and strength.

No one is saying size and strength doesn't help. It's just not really needed.

 

[Micklebot]

Well compare them a year after their draft and they were the same size.

Most important for a center is if he can skate. He needs to be able to skate up and down the ice.

Second most important factor is offensive and defensive awareness/hockey smarts. They need to know how to properly defend and cancel out opponents rushes, but also need to know how to break out and create offense and playmaker.

Third most important is puck skills. They need to be able to actually carry the puck and not lose it or bobble it all the time. Have to be able to actually get the puck on teammates sticks.

Then after all the important stuff, size and strength can come in after.

Turris was compared to Sakic when drafted. Basically the reason he didn't turn into Sakic was more based on skill and smarts than it was size and strength.

Which is why there are so many 170 pound centers in the league right?

Turris' was 6'1, he had frame you could project growth onto, not at all the same size. It never happened though so he struggled as a result. White was undrafted and didn't become a full time NHL player till he was 26 when he filled out.

Greig got draft at 164. He's going to need to add size just like other have. If he can, great, if he continues to be undersized I suspect he plays as a winger. Even if he gets up to 180-185, he's in the minority for centers.

 

[slamigo]

I suspect it is because they have trainers getting them to do more aerobic training or some silly version of weightlifting. The trainers do that because they don't know how to properly teach powerlifting or olympic weight lifting correctly.

Their calories can either be spent on building muscle or doing aerobic training and most players seem to think they need to do the aerobic training.

I will add that your son is probably more athletically gifted than the regular population. A vertical leap is not something you can really train and his ability to drunk a basketball at under 6' demonstrates he has some athletic gifts. Not that it really matters when we're comparing him to pro athletes who are inherently supremely gifted athletically.

Assen na yo!

Oddly enough though, we used to pay for an online vertical jump training program and it really paid off (https://www.pjfperformance.net/). I was skeptical but it really worked. Tons of really interesting exercises. My kid could dunk a basketball at 16 and 5'9" after doing that program. His vertical jump is 40" or so now. That's the result of lots of squats, lots of deadlifts and lots of specific jump exercises.
Explosive power comes from being strong. We have a full garage gym with every piece of gear you could think of. Wall mounted Rogue system, olympic bars, bumper plates, bike, Concept II rower, kettlebells, dumbbells, benches, cable system, etc. Basically a complete Crossfit box in our garage. Every top prospect should have access to the same. To be that close to making the NHL and not be training like a mofo seems to defy all logic to me.

 

[Micklebot]

Hmm plenty of smaller centers succeed defensively. Skating ability, puck skills, and smarts are much more important to being good defensively than size and strength.

No one is saying size and strength doesn't help. It's just not really needed.

Ok, so looking at the 2019-2020 season so that there's a reasonable sample, 9 guys under 180 pounds and less than 6' were listed on NHL.com as centers and played 40 or more games. Out of those 9 players some, like Kahin, Caggiula, Cogliano, Hinostroza and Ennis, actually played wing. That leaves 4 guys, so yeah, plenty...

 

[jbeck5]

Ok, so looking at the 2019-2020 season so that there's a reasonable sample, 9 guys under 180 pounds and less than 6' were listed on NHL.com as centers and played 40 or more games. Out of those 9 players some, like Kahin, Caggiula, Cogliano, Hinostroza and Ennis, actually played wing. That leaves 4 guys, so yeah, plenty...

That's not a very strong argument.

It would be like me saying centers that are 6'4 or bigger are not effective because there's barely any of them.

When you go to something so extreme, of course there aren't many, simply because there aren't many grown men athletes playing hockey who are sub 170 pounds so obviously there aren't many in the NHL.

Ive played on a lot of beer league teams and I don't know a single player that is under 170 pounds. Actually, I don't know if any of my male friends are under 170. It's just very rare in general to be that small, so of course it will be very rare in the NHL.

 

[Micklebot]

That's not a very strong argument.

It would be like me saying centers that are 6'4 or bigger are not effective because there's barely any of them.

When you go to something so extreme, of course there aren't many, simply because there aren't many grown men athletes playing hockey who are sub 170 pounds so obviously there aren't many in the NHL.

Ive played on a lot of beer league teams and I don't know a single player that is under 170 pounds. Actually, I don't know if any of my male friends are under 170. It's just very rare in general to be that small, so of course it will be very rare in the NHL.

So your argument is that players under 6' 180 are rare because males that size in general are rare? I mean, the average height and weight in Canada is about 5'10, 187, so yeah being 180 is below average but this argument is getting a bit absurd if you think <180 is very rare...

 

[slamigo]

Todd White had massive lower body and was a devout gym rat. That guy lived to lift weights.
Our kids played soccer together and he was an on field coach/helper person. It was absurd how strong his lower body was. He never looked big on the ice but off ice that dude was jacked.

 

[Masked]

Oddly enough though, we used to pay for an online vertical jump training program and it really paid off (https://www.pjfperformance.net/). I was skeptical but it really worked. Tons of really interesting exercises. My kid could dunk a basketball at 16 and 5'9" after doing that program. His vertical jump is 40" or so now. That's the result of lots of squats, lots of deadlifts and lots of specific jump exercises.
Explosive power comes from being strong. We have a full garage gym with every piece of gear you could think of. Wall mounted Rogue system, olympic bars, bumper plates, bike, Concept II rower, kettlebells, dumbbells, benches, cable system, etc. Basically a complete Crossfit box in our garage. Every top prospect should have access to the same. To be that close to making the NHL and not be training like a mofo seems to defy all logic to me.

You might want to watch this because of the discussion of the standing vertical jump at the start:

Assen na yo!

 

[slamigo]

You might want to watch this because of the discussion of the standing vertical jump at the start:

Assen na yo!

Maybe yeah. My kid could power clean more than me by the time he was 14. Lol

 

[Cosmix]

No, not really. Center has very different responsibilities in the DZ, just having big wingers doesn't make it fine.

I disagree as there have been some great centers who were small. One example is Butch Goring 5'10" 165 lbs. However I do have a preference for bigger players but exceptions can be made if they have the "right stuff". Some coaches adopt an F1, F2 & F3 approach when players are back checking with responsibilities assigned dynamically depending on the players on-ice position in the D zone.

Robert 'Butch' Goring Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

 

[Cosmix]

With controlled aggression, The Riddler would be a beauty for the Sens. Sky is the limit, can't wait to follow his growth as a legit top-6 prospect.

Reminds me of the early years of Stan Mikita

 

[MatchesMalone]

Ok, so looking at the 2019-2020 season so that there's a reasonable sample, 9 guys under 180 pounds and less than 6' were listed on NHL.com as centers and played 40 or more games. Out of those 9 players some, like Kahin, Caggiula, Cogliano, Hinostroza and Ennis, actually played wing. That leaves 4 guys, so yeah, plenty...

I actually have to agree with you on this one. I was wondering about the potential for Eklund and Kent Johnson to play center in the NHL, so looked into it a bit and yeah, very rare for small centers to be effective and stick at center in the NHL. Lol, spellcheck keeps telling me I spelled "center" wrong.

 

[jbeck5]

So your argument is that players under 6' 180 are rare because males that size in general are rare? I mean, the average height and weight in Canada is about 5'10, 187, so yeah being 180 is below average but this argument is getting a bit absurd if you think <180 is very rare...

When did I even utter the numbers "180"

Before I continue I wanna see if you can argue honestly.

Let's see you backtrack.

 

[Micklebot]

When did I even utter the numbers "180"

Before I continue I wanna see if you can argue honestly.

Let's see you backtrack.

I showed you the numbers on players under 180 and 6' who played 40 games because I said he'd likely need to gain size ( ie be 180 or more) in order to make it as a center. You decided to move the goalposts to 170 (which isn't really being intellectually honest now is it) so I stuck with the original point I made, players unser 180 don't often make it as centers. If you want to shift to 170 the list becomes zero centers played 40 games at that height and size, but 170 isn't really relevant to the discussion unless you think he's topped out in size.

It's rare for a reason, and no it's not because males weighing 170 are super rare, that's only slightly below average, certainly within one standard deviation.

 

[Micklebot]

I disagree as there have been some great centers who were small. One example is Butch Goring 5'10" 165 lbs. However I do have a preference for bigger players but exceptions can be made if they have the "right stuff". Some coaches adopt an F1, F2 & F3 approach when players are back checking with responsibilities assigned dynamically depending on the players on-ice position in the D zone.

Robert 'Butch' Goring Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

Butch Goring was great and all but he retired before the majority of today's players were born. The average player today is almost 20 pds heavier than when he started playing.

 

[aragorn]

I think Greig has to play centre to succeed in Ottawa, the 3rd line centre spot is really the only spot left that he has a reasonable shot at taking given White is hanging on by a thread. Of course lots can happen in a yr or two but with Tkachuk, Stutzle & Formenton taking up three spots as well as Nick Paul at LW at the moment there is no room on that side. The RW spots are also taken by Batherson, C. Brown now & Boucher & Sokolov in future. The centre position after Norris & Pinto is where I see his best opportunity & he's got the offensive talent to usurp White IMO in a yr or two. He also looks bigger to me than his reported size, he may have grown a little, but why wouldn't it be reflected in the program? I think the future top 9 are slowly panning out.

Tkachuk - Norris - Batherson
Stutzle - Pinto - Boucher
Formenton - Greig - Sokolov

 

[jbeck5]

I showed you the numbers on players under 180 and 6' who played 40 games because I said he'd likely need to gain size ( ie be 180 or more) in order to make it as a center. You decided to move the goalposts to 170 (which isn't really being intellectually honest now is it) so I stuck with the original point I made, players unser 180 don't often make it as centers. If you want to shift to 170 the list becomes zero centers played 40 games at that height and size, but 170 isn't really relevant to the discussion unless you think he's topped out in size.

It's rare for a reason, and no it's not because males weighing 170 are super rare, that's only slightly below average, certainly within one standard deviation.

I guess I need to apologize as I thought we were talking about Ridley Greig who's under 170 pounds. So I went with under 170 pounds.

But honestly, even if you move it to 180, so few 25-30 year old (prime years) are under 180.

If I was to guess, I'd think all but 1-2 guys on every adult hockey team I played on was 190-210. Which holds true for the NHL too.

If you take a figure that is rare outside the NHL, of course it will be rare inside the NHL too.

Like, if the argument is that less than 5% of nhlers are under 180, it seems pretty consistent with any adult hockey League....maybe because that's just the percentage of people in general.

The only scronny people I can think of that are significantly less than 180 are computer nerds who have zero athletic ability. Anyone who has ability to skate or run or throw a ball seems to be atleast 180. So I don't think it's indicative of abilities more than just total raw numbers.