Salary Cap: RFA Marner - Silence until solution to the matter one way or the other

[X66]

Even going back to the Nylander signing, I've always said that a player should sign for as much as they can. Hockey is dangerous and literally any game can be your last, so maximize your income when you can.

But it's crazy to think that if he signed the same contract as Kucherov we'd be over the moon, and Kucherov had 128 points last year lol.

 

[thewave]

If 11x7 is the hill Dubas is going to die on and Marner refused before July 1, why not immediately start shopping him rather than not budging for 2 1/2 months. Didn't Dubas understand that the Marner camp had their heads in the clouds and still do ??

He isn't as smart as the media made him out. Its a Noni's level GM at best.

 

[kk87]

This really is a tale of two polar opposite negotiation strategies. Externally, Dubas has spoken coolly and respectfully about Marner and his camp through and through; internally, if we are to believe insider reports, he’s concretely outlined the team’s priorities, presented a myriad of more-than-fair options for Marner to consider, and worked constructively to find something that works for both sides.

Meanwhile, Ferris has been overtly inflammatory and disparaging toward Dubas for months, talking about how insulting his tactics/offers have been. Internally, it appears that the camp has made no effort to find common ground or make certain concessions the way any sane individual would. It seems spiteful and tactless.

Obviously, some or all of what we’ve heard could be untrue, but if there’s any validity to these rumours it seems like the perfect example of bad faith negotiation on the end of the agent. It seems shockingly immature and unprofessional. If what we know is true of the offers that have been discussed/tables and the things that have been said, I place no blame on Dubas whatsoever and think that Ferris should be run out of the league. For someone working at this level, his approach has been downright pathetic.

 

[Bomber0104]

If 11x7 is the hill Dubas is going to die on and Marner refused before July 1, why not immediately start shopping him rather than not budging for 2 1/2 months. Didn't Dubas understand that the Marner camp had their heads in the clouds and still do ??

If that 11x7 contract was tabled in response to the offer-sheet threat on July 1st, then Dubas got spooked big time and once again has shown he can get scared into overpaying his players.

Now that offer is the floor they'll negotiate from and it'll only get better for Marner's camp the closer we get to the season opener.

 

[Hockey Crazy]

If 11x7 is the hill Dubas is going to die on and Marner refused before July 1, why not immediately start shopping him rather than not budging for 2 1/2 months. Didn't Dubas understand that the Marner camp had their heads in the clouds and still do ??

Because if the Marner camp turned it down it's probably because they think something better is coming their way by October.

 

[18leafsfan18]

If that 11x7 contract was tabled in response to the offer-sheet threat on July 1st, then Dubas got spooked big time and once again has shown he can get scared into overpaying his players.

Now that offer is the floor they'll negotiate from and it'll only get better for Marner's camp the closer we get to the season opener.

Not true at all. No evidence to show that is "The Floor" to negotiate on.

 

[Bomber0104]

Not true at all. No evidence to show that is "The Floor" to negotiate on.

Just common sense.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Public opinion has been so overwhelmingly in the Leafs favour that they shouldn't feel any pressure to increase the offer.

Marner sitting is bad for both sides but it's much worse for the player. At this point hopefully they just wait for Marner to accept or make the awful decision to sit out.

 

[ULF_55]

If 11x7 is the hill Dubas is going to die on and Marner refused before July 1, why not immediately start shopping him rather than not budging for 2 1/2 months. Didn't Dubas understand that the Marner camp had their heads in the clouds and still do ??

Who's to say they aren't accumulating offers for him, just not pursuing them until the point of no return?

Leafs ability to match offer sheets diminishes as the season go along.

This could get dirty and nasty. If marner is holding off signing until the season is underway, Leafs should be on the phone first week in October to peddle him for the best package. From what we've heard he'll sign for 3 * 10, maybe there are teams that can and will pay that?

I doubt marner is going to sit, they probably have a list of teams who were interested in him via an offersheet and when the Leafs can no longer match will engage those teams. They'll look for the respect paul thinks they don't get in Toronto.

Perhaps the "very blunt discussion about things" Dubas spoke of is related to that perception, or perhaps his place on the team?

 

[18leafsfan18]

Just common sense.

Nope it really isn't.

Just an opinion based on no facts whatsoever.

Dubas might have said "11x7 is our final offer" for all we know.

 

[Burnie97]

Who's to say they aren't accumulating offers for him, just not pursuing them until the point of no return?

Leafs ability to match offer sheets diminishes as the season go along.

This could get dirty and nasty. If marner is holding off signing until the season is underway, Leafs should be on the phone first week in October to peddle him for the best package. From what we've heard he'll sign for 3 * 10, maybe there are teams that can and will pay that?

I doubt marner is going to sit, they probably have a list of teams who were interested in him via an offersheet and when the Leafs can no longer match will engage those teams. They'll look for the respect paul thinks they don't get in Toronto.

Perhaps the "blunt discussion" Dubas spoke of is related to that perception, or perhaps his place on the team?

Read Chris Johnston's article this morning. I don't think that's true. It does accumulate... making it harder for the Leafs to sign him after October 2nd. If another team comes in and offer sheets... its different.

Essentially Dubas did know what he was doing... and the offer sheet in season... they could match as if the cap hasn't accumulated... just like in mid summer etc.

 

[ToneDog]

How do you know he didn't start with a lower offer ?

How do you know that 11x7 is what Dubas said is their top offer ?

11x7 is already an overpay. I would hope he won't go higher on that term. He could overpay more on a shorter term deal though. He could have started lower earlier but it was 11x7 late June according to Dregs.

 

[Nineteen67]

I'm sticking to around 10.5 for 6 years as a high water contract. I can't see Marner sitting for more than that (considering that the leafs don't have more space) and the leafs really have little to gain by playing hardball for a better deal for only marginal cap impact. I think it is a deal that they both can live with

I can’t see why this is so danged difficult to get done. Literally shouldn’t take more than a few hours to sort out.
I don’t know why Marner is electing to miss out on the training camp trip.

 

[ToneDog]

Because if the Marner camp turned it down it's probably because they think something better is coming their way by October.

I don't thing Dubas can or will go higher than an AAV of 11. Hence why I think he will give in to Marner's request for a shorter term but for a lower AAV (say an overpay in the 8.5-10 neighbourhood).

 

[ULF_55]

Read Chris Johnston's article this morning. I don't think that's true. It does accumulate... making it harder for the Leafs to sign him after October 2nd. If another team comes in and offer sheets... its different.

Yes, Leafs ability to match offersheets diminishes after October 2nd., because they're relying on LTIR which is reduced as the season progresses. Therefore the longer marner holds off signing the more likely the Leafs could lose him for less than 4 first round picks.

 

[Bomber0104]

Nope it really isn't.

Just an opinion based on no facts whatsoever.

Dubas might have said "11x7 is our final offer" for all we know.

Therefore that's the floor.

Woooooooosh.

 

[18leafsfan18]

11x7 is already an overpay. I would hope he won't go higher on that term. He could overpay more on a shorter term deal though. He could have started lower earlier but it was 11x7 late June according to Dregs.

The overpay argument is a completely different argument. I agree btw. Overpay, but not a crazy overpay.

But none of that shows that 7x11 is Dubas' lowest offer or his highest offer.

 

[CBinTokyo]

Should’ve been $10 million x 8, tops.

Since he won’t accept that, I hope he’s dumb enough not to accept Dubas’ even higher offer of $11x7 and just sits. Let him go to Switzerland and learn to order food in German.

More like 9.5 by 8. He is a freaking RFA.... when did they start commanding UFA paycheques?

 

[18leafsfan18]

Therefore that's the floor.

Woooooooosh.

You realize floor means lowest offer right ?

You know because the floor is low and the ceiling is high ?

 

[Burnie97]

Yes, Leafs ability to match offersheets diminishes after October 2nd., because they're relying on LTIR which is reduced as the season progresses. Therefore the longer marner holds off signing the more likely the Leafs could lose him for less than 4 first round picks.

Okay... maybe im wrong ... but again check the article out... from what I gathered ... their ability to match an offer sheet... is the same.

 

[Bomber0104]

You realize floor means lowest offer right ?

You know because the floor is low and the ceiling is high ?

11 x 7 is the best offer.

Now Marner's agent will attempt to get more using that as the base to negotiate from.

That is now the floor.

Woooooooooooooooooooooosh.

 

[Mess]

Ferris and Marner appear to be winning and Leafs and Dubas losing.

From the latest reports of a Dubas offer to Marner of $11 mil for 7/8 years of which Marner has declined it seems to me that Ferris has convinced Dubas that Marner's only 2 comparables are his teammates.

Dubas

Matthews @ $11.634 mil X 5 ..........(RFA signing & Ceiling)
Marner @ $11 mil X 8 ....................(Declined Offer)
Tavares @ $11 mil X 7 ........................(UFA signing & Floor)

Most GMs

Kucherov @ $9.5 mil X 8 ................(UFA signing & Ceiling) as MVP and League scoring leader
Marner @ ~ $9 mil X 8 ................(RFA) = Marner's last summer $72 mil starting offer, declined by Dubas.
Aho @ $8.45 mil X 5 ........................(RFA OS signing & Floor) as inflationary offersheet signing

Generally understood and accepted principles are UFAs get more $$ due to market laws of supply and demand setting price, while RFAs get less because they're under cost controllable team years and their value is set via league wide comparables for similar positions played and production on recent signings.

Other unsigned RFAs like Point, Rantanen etc are likely going to fall between the Kucherov ----- & ------ Aho model for Ceiling and Floor as should Marner. IMO

 

[ULF_55]

I don't thing Dubas can or will go higher than an AAV of 11. Hence why I think he will give in to Marner's request for a shorter term but for a lower AAV (say an overpay in the 8.5-10 neighbourhood).

How about?

13.3, 8.5, 8.5?

Year 1: 8.5 base salary + 4.8 B Bonus money. 3 years at 1.6 per year 4.8 signing bonus
Year 2: Aho money
Year 3: Aho money

10.1 AAV

 

[Nineteen67]

Here to remind everyone again.

Every team that has yet to sign their marquee RFAs needs them way more than we need Marner. NOT a Marner knock at all, but we’re loaded up front, we can absorb his absence better than the other teams.

The NHLPA and NHL have met this week and may still be meeting. My guess is this is a just tactic by the NHLPA to get the attention of the owners.

 

[ToneDog]

Who's to say they aren't accumulating offers for him, just not pursuing them until the point of no return?

Leafs ability to match offer sheets diminishes as the season go along.

This could get dirty and nasty. If marner is holding off signing until the season is underway, Leafs should be on the phone first week in October to peddle him for the best package. From what we've heard he'll sign for 3 * 10, maybe there are teams that can and will pay that?

I doubt marner is going to sit, they probably have a list of teams who were interested in him via an offersheet and when the Leafs can no longer match will engage those teams. They'll look for the respect paul thinks they don't get in Toronto.

Perhaps the "very blunt discussion about things" Dubas spoke of is related to that perception, or perhaps his place on the team?

No smoke around trade rumours but there were many last summer where Nylander was concerned. I would not wait until Oct to start shopping him although I doubt there is a GM willing to pay his ask and what it will take to acquire him.

As for respect, if $11Mx7 or 8 is not enough, I would suggest that Marner head to Switzerland ASAP.