Raptors Discussion: REPORT: Raptors trade DeRozan, Poeltl, Protected 1st to Spurs for Leonard, Green

[inthe6ix]

Explain this thought process to me.

Just my opinion on what it would take, but I just don't see how Masai can retain both Kyle and DD and still get Leonard for quantity and picks. DD makes 27M next year and Kawhi is at about 20, so the Spurs would also need to send money back to make it work, and we would still have to add guys like OG and Siakam for a one-year potential swing for the fences. Considering Kyle is at 31M and would take up about 1/3 of their cap, it's really not likely he goes, but as a team we are already in the luxury tax, so do we want to go deeper even if we could? Leonard's health is a concern no one is really talking about and if he decides to bolt next year, then what? If you think we can get the Spurs to give us Kawhi without at least DD going the other way, I'd like to hear how.

 

[BlueForever75]

Just my opinion on what it would take, but I just don't see how Masai can retain both Kyle and DD and still get Leonard for quantity and picks. DD makes 27M next year and Kawhi is at about 20, so the Spurs would also need to send money back to make it work, and we would still have to add guys like OG and Siakam for a one-year potential swing for the fences. Considering Kyle is at 31M and would take up about 1/3 of their cap, it's really not likely he goes, but as a team we are already in the luxury tax, so do we want to go deeper even if we could? Leonard's health is a concern no one is really talking about and if he decides to bolt next year, then what? If you think we can get the Spurs to give us Kawhi without at least DD going the other way, I'd like to hear how.

Ibaka, Powell, Poertle, 1st

With something else coming back with Leonard to balance it out

Ibaka = Leonard in salary
Powell/Poertle = Danny Green? Pat Mills?
1st doesn't matter

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Just my opinion.

Understood.

NBA trades work different, profoundly differently, than NHL trades. Where you see "quality" (i.e. high priced veterans, all-stars) I see cap holds that require matching, and ultimately more assets (i.e. Danny Green's expiring contract) that you would otherwise not want to trade included in a deal you're already being forced to do.

The "Quality" in any deal coming from Toronto, or centerpiece if you will, is the young asset(s) that goes the other way. Poeltl\OG\Siakam\Wright all hold significantly more value in trade to the Spurs than the Kyle\Demar piece. Moreover, if the Raptors are trading for one season of Kawhi, they will want to have those two to play along side him. Thus why it makes little to no sense that one will be included.

 

[BlueForever75]

Understood.

NBA trades work different, profoundly differently, than NHL trades. Where you see "quality" (i.e. high priced veterans, all-stars) I see cap holds that require matching, and ultimately more assets (i.e. Danny Green's expiring contract) that you would otherwise not want to trade included in a deal you're already being forced to do.

The "Quality" in any deal coming from Toronto, or centerpiece if you will, is the young asset(s) that goes the other way. Poeltl\OG\Siakam\Wright all hold significantly more value in trade to the Spurs than the Kyle\Demar piece. Moreover, if the Raptors are trading for one season of Kawhi, they will want to have those two to play along side him. Thus why it makes little to no sense that one will be included.

I agree 100%.

Its basically counter productive to trade Lowry or DD in any deal for Leonard. You would want to build a 3 headed monster for one season if possible.

Ideally you would trade Ibaka as part of the deal, spicing it up with youth and picks. But it may end up costing you JV, Poeltl and Wright plus a 1st.

If somehow we can lessen the blow by keeping one of Poeltl or Wright I would be ok with that deal. So one of JV or Ibaka, One of Poeltl or Wright, another small piece and a first rounder.

 

[hockeywiz542]

If Leonard is dealt, the most he could make via an extension with his new team is $108 million over four years. If Leonard is dealt but opts to become a free agent next summer, the most he could earn would be $190 million over five years.

In the near-term, Leonard is leaving a veritable Fort Knox on the table by pushing for a trade.

Leonard’s team of advisers — including his agent, Mitch Frankel, and his uncle and business manager, Dennis Robertson — reportedly believes the league’s most low-key superstar can over time make up the financial difference in endorsement money and a new shoe deal if he moves to a higher-profile market.

There is growing suspicion among a collection of NBA agents — a naturally suspicious group — that Robertson is aiming to build his own marketing company with his nephew as its signature client, and would like to position Leonard in a glamour market to do so.

According to ESPN's Brian Windhorst, the Toronto Raptors have made a compelling offer for Kawhi Leonard.

https://www.tsn.ca/nba/video/windhorst-raptors-have-made-a-compelling-offer-for-kawhi~1440610

 

[Five Alarm Fire]

Trade for Butler and Kawhi.
Use Kawhi's expiring contract to make room for Kyrie.

 

[Puckstuff]

The only way KL comes is if Lowry or DD are involved - you're not getting him with at least giving up one of those, and it's probably DD going the other way ++ although I thought I remember Kyle wanting to play for Pop and the Spurs didn't offer him a contract prior to his extension here.

Agree with most though, if Leonard isn't signed up long-term, it's a horrible deal to make for a guy who is walking after one season, at which point Magic said he'll just scoop him up as a UFA when he becomes available.

Lowry has negative value just so you know. He's turned out be a quite a lazy, mentally weak and useless player in the playoffs

 

[Clark4Ever]

Ibaka, Powell, Poertle, 1st

With something else coming back with Leonard to balance it out

Ibaka = Leonard in salary
Powell/Poertle = Danny Green? Pat Mills?
1st doesn't matter

I would be ok with that package for a rental. It would sting to lose Poeltl, but if they were willing to take on the salaries of Ibaka and Powell, it's palatable.

 

[The Nemesis]

Ibaka, Powell, Poertle, 1st

With something else coming back with Leonard to balance it out

Ibaka = Leonard in salary
Powell/Poertle = Danny Green? Pat Mills?
1st doesn't matter

Ibaka has basically no value. The Raptors would likely have to pay a team to take him. Or in a deal structured like this it would likely require Anunoby as the centerpiece of the young player/prospect core of the deal.

I would like to have Powell and Poeltl as the focus of a deal though. DeRozan/Powell/Poeltl/1st/conditional pick would be nice, but I'm not sure it work without some salary finagling (it would require money out on the Spurs side beyond just Leonard and Danny Green)

Lowry has negative value just so you know. He's turned out be a quite a lazy, mentally weak and useless player in the playoffs

Fantastic hot take.

He's taken a step back in the playoffs, but in no world, not even in the Stephen A Smith-iest, Skip Bayless-iest hot-takiest one, does he have "negative value"

Besides, DeMar is the bigger culprit in the Raptors playoff swoons compared to Lowry.

 

[Radiohead]

Lowry has negative value just so you know. He's turned out be a quite a lazy, mentally weak and useless player in the playoffs

Wat.

He's one of the few players that showed up against the Cavs.

 

[Radiohead]

I would be ok with that package for a rental. It would sting to lose Poeltl, but if they were willing to take on the salaries of Ibaka and Powell, it's palatable.

Spurs hang up the phone.

 

[Aho and the Bunnaman]

Don't really see a point of a deal sending DD away to get Kawhi back...I know a lot of people want that DD contract gone, but I don't think the upgrade from DD to Kawhi moves the needle much in terms of our playoff chances (not to mention we'd have to fill in the 2 with a combination of Delon/Norm/Miles?).

Would love to see the basis of the deal be JV+OG. I have no idea what the Spurs' mindset is or how much leverage they have (it all seems so fluid right now), but hey, at least that trade works on the ESPN Trade Machine....

KL3/DD/KL2/Siakam/Ibaka+Purt+FVV+Delon...that to me at least has a puncher's chance in the Finals against GSW (maybe 3%?)...and with the 2 All-Stars, a chance to extend Kawhi.

 

[Puckstuff]

Ibaka has basically no value. The Raptors would likely have to pay a team to take him. Or in a deal structured like this it would likely require Anunoby as the centerpiece of the young player/prospect core of the deal.

I would like to have Powell and Poeltl as the focus of a deal though. DeRozan/Powell/Poeltl/1st/conditional pick would be nice, but I'm not sure it work without some salary finagling (it would require money out on the Spurs side beyond just Leonard and Danny Green)



Fantastic hot take.

He's taken a step back in the playoffs, but in no world, not even in the Stephen A Smith-iest, Skip Bayless-iest hot-takiest one, does he have "negative value"

Besides, DeMar is the bigger culprit in the Raptors playoff swoons compared to Lowry.

I use to admire Lowry; but he's really dropped off.

• Lowry came to camp in shape once; and has been coming to training camp overweight ever since.
• Grossly overpaid at $31,000,000 in 2018/19 and $33,000,000 the following season. This is arguably one of the worst contracts in the NBA.
• Can't close out games
• Has never won in the playoffs

He's an average point guard that makes more money then Kevin Durant. I wouldn't take him on my team for free. I doubt the spurs would want him in any deal.

 

[AllDay28]

what does "never won in the playoffs" mean?? Raps get outta the first round all the time. if it means championships, a lot of great players never win.

 

[trellaine201]

I’m very curious why more teams haven’t had interest in this guy.

Must be a reason. If he’s so good as a lot of people say why aren’t more teams offering???

 

[Kurtz]

I use to admire Lowry; but he's really dropped off.

• Lowry came to camp in shape once; and has been coming to training camp overweight ever since.
• Grossly overpaid at $31,000,000 in 2018/19 and $33,000,000 the following season. This is arguably one of the worst contracts in the NBA.
• Can't close out games
• Has never won in the playoffs

He's an average point guard that makes more money then Kevin Durant. I wouldn't take him on my team for free. I doubt the spurs would want him in any deal.

Wow...horrid takes.

Lowry was given more annually in exchange for only getting 3 years. Paul just got 4/160, for comparison.

Can't close out games? What do you mean by that? Raptors won the East this year - who do you think was closing out the games? Who closed out game 6 against Washington this year?

Never won in the playoffs? Raptors have won more playoff games over the past 3 years than any team that didn't have Lebron or Curry & friends on it.

Finally, Lowry has been named to multiple all-star teams and to the all-NBA team. LOl @ calling him an average pg.

 

[The Nemesis]

Kyle Lowry, "average" NBA PG:

2017-18:
18th in WinShares/48 (13th in unadjusted WS, 13th in Offensive WinShares)
9th in Box +/- (7th in offensive BPM)
8th in Value Over Replacement Player

2016-17:
13 in WS/48 (17th in raw WS, 14th in OWS)
11th in BPM (6th in Offensive BPM)
14th in VORP

2015-16:
13th in WS/48 (8th in raw WS, 8th in OWS, 19th in DWS)
7th in BPM (7th in OBPM)
6th in VORP

In pretty much every case he's 2nd-4th in those ranks in terms of PGs, with usually a couple of Curry, Westbrook, Paul, and I guess Harden if you count him as a PG.



"average".... yep

 

[Jozay]

Ibaka has basically no value. The Raptors would likely have to pay a team to take him. Or in a deal structured like this it would likely require Anunoby as the centerpiece of the young player/prospect core of the deal.

I would like to have Powell and Poeltl as the focus of a deal though. DeRozan/Powell/Poeltl/1st/conditional pick would be nice, but I'm not sure it work without some salary finagling (it would require money out on the Spurs side beyond just Leonard and Danny Green)

Since when did expiring superstars start returning all stars?

I dont see why the raptors would have to give up that much value.

Unless DD has a lot less value around the league than I think he does.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

I really don't know. It's pretty risky if he's injured or leaves. Worse, if we include unprotected first rounders (hopefully not) in addition to our young players, that would hurt any rebuild if Kawhi were to leave.

If we compare it to the PG13 trade:

PG for Oladipo + Sabonis

Kawhi for DD + OG + Delon/Poetl/Siakam

Hopefully it's Delon because it would least affect the roster due to FVV.

JV - Poetl
Ibaka - Siakam
Kawhi - ???
Powell - Miles
Lowry - FVV

 

[Jozay]

I really don't know. It's pretty risky if he's injured or leaves. Worse, if we include unprotected first rounders (hopefully not) in addition to our young players, that would hurt any rebuild if Kawhi were to leave.

If we compare it to the PG13 trade:

PG for Oladipo + Sabonis

Kawhi for DD + OG + Delon/Poetl/Siakam

Hopefully it's Delon because it would least affect the roster due to FVV.

JV - Poetl
Ibaka - Siakam
Kawhi - ???
Powell - Miles
Lowry - FVV

Thats Oladipo before he went to Indiana.

Demar has way more value than Oladipo had at that time.

 

[trellaine201]

Hmmm if the Raps were to trade for him....and say things don’t work out...can he be traded at the deadline?

 

[Maplebeasts]

Hmmm if the Raps were to trade for him....and say things don’t work out...can he be traded at the deadline?

Yes but it will still be a net loss as the package we could get for him at the deadline likely wouldn't match what we'd give up t get him. Also if we did trade for him it's in the hopes that we make the finals, not move him at the deadline.

 

[trellaine201]

So I guess it’s out of the realm of missing the playoffs?

 

[AllDay28]

youre trading for Kawhi for his games in April+.

 

[Fantomas]

I don't think the upgrade from DD to Kawhi moves the needle much in terms of our playoff chances

Are you kidding? Leonard is a superstar. Demar is a high volume shooter who can't defend or hit the three.