Re-tooling For One More Run With This Core

[Nineteen67]

How much does Tampa spend on their bottom six vs ours ?

Roughly 7 million.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

most games in hockey, winning is a 1/2 chance. Going 0/9 in close out games is very rare.

1/512 odds

it's mathematical proof of something. cursed ? lack of will ?

We KNOW this team CONSISTENTLY plays DOWN to inferior teams. We even let up on the power play. We are a skilled team that really does lack a desire to win that is key in the playoffs. They do lack a passion. Is it blue and white disease ?

Our only good shake up is moving Nylander and I think it will happen.

 

[ToneDog]

I know, but if he was 100 physical and mentally prepared to play and they could make it work it might be worth it.
Whatever they give up to get him has to be replaced with competent NHL players that provide something different that this team lacks. A 25 goal scorer that can crash the net and score goals that way, might be more valuable than Nylander come playoffs.

How long have some fans been asking for such players ? Matthew Tkachuk with the hat trick last night. Hyman with 2. Coleman with 2.

 

[ShaneFalco]

We came within an inch of beating TB

Last year it was SC finalists we took to 7 games (forget we were up 3-1 though and the Habs barely made the playoffs and Keefe made no adjustments)
CBJ - we lost to a team that beat TB previously and they were tied in the standings (forget that we couldn't score to save our lives)
Hell we could have closed out TB in game 6, but then lost the next 2. And what 4 shots in the 3rd of game 6?

 

[ToneDog]

How much does Tampa spend on their bottom six vs ours ?

Tampa beefed up their bottom 6 at the TDL by adding Hagel and Paul (the jokers who laughed at Tampa TDL moves are eating crow once again). Meanwhile we could have LTIR'd Muzzin and added a top 6 winger to play with JT and chose not to.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Last year it was SC finalists we took to 7 games (forget we were up 3-1 though and the Habs barely made the playoffs and Keefe made no adjustments)
CBJ - we lost to a team that beat TB previously and they were tied in the standings (forget that we couldn't score to save our lives)
Hell we could have closed out TB in game 6, but then lost the next 2. And what 4 shots in the 3rd of game 6?

I was equally frustrated that we lost to CLB and MTL, especially MTL. But I would also add that MTL is a good example of why it's ridiculous to say the regular season means nothing. In terms of accomplishments sure, it means nothing to me, or at least almost nothing. But in terms of talking about who the best teams are and which teams are most likely to have success in the near future, the regular seasons means a ton. If that wasn't true then we'd expect MTL to be a top contender this year and also, TB winning the cup should have been a huge shock considering they went out 4-0 in the previous year.

I'd say we're still one of the top 5-6 contenders going into next season. It might seem like the sky is falling but I don't think that that's really the case.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Comes down to drafting and development. Because we have not been good at it, we have to go dumpster diving every summer to fill out the roster and we have yet to find a combination that can help us win a round. Hunter was bad but Dubas has been here the years Hunter was here and the years after Hunter left so it is not all on Hunter. Sandin and Lily are the closest and they were not good enough to play in game #7.

How has it been bad? Most of our picks have been from the 2nd round on. The large majority of picks from those rounds take years to develop and most of our picks are 20-21 at the oldest. Most draft picks from the 2nd round on aren't in the NHL by that age. We have many prospects that are on the cusp of making the NHL including:

Robertson
Amirov (health)
Knies
Niemela
Holmberg
Anderson
Steeves
Kral
Abruzzese

Some of these guys are going to be challenging for a spot next year and some likely the year after. Abramov and Hirvonen I think might slowly develop into NHLers in another 2 or so years. With Dermott gone, Sandin should be a full timer now.

As for the Hunter drafts, sure Dubas was here but he was in charge of running the Marlies. Hunter was in charge of the draft. Putting partial blame for Hunter's failures doesn't make much sense if he isn't in charge of the draft table. The word is that Dubas wanted Debrincat at the Korshkov pick and Hunter overruled him for example. It's pretty clear that our prospect pool has been tracking much better under Dubas/Lilley than it was under Lou/Hunter.

Like I said we could be seeing positive results from the Dubas' drafting on the Leafs as soon as this coming season.

Also doesn't make sense to have a young Sandin coming back from injury over veterans Muzzin and Gio. Liljegren not playing was a decision by Keefe who decided to keep Holl in (mistake imo)

Our goaltending development has been pretty bad though. Scott was looking great but the poor kid can't stay off the IR.

 

[Buds17]

Assuming he’s 100% healthy and ready to play, is there any possible way that the Leafs could acquire Carey Price?

Putting aside any potential risks associated with the assumption, the Leafs are either taking on $10.5M or paying something quite grand to have Montreal retain for four seasons.

Possible? Sure. Realistic? Well...

 

[IrishInOntario]

It's time to move on.



Absolutely no way they are.

Their record this year vs good teams was stupid bad.

Given that Simmonds is already signed for the 2022-2023 season and adds a dimension to the roster that nobody else does (some needed bite), I think some people are going to be disappointed when they see that he spends this final season in Toronto playing fairly regularly.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Roughly 7 million.

Leafs spend more than that.

Paul (750k) vs. Spezza (750k)
Colton (1.1 mill) vs. Engvall (1.25 mill)
Hagel (1.5 mill) vs. Mikheyev (1.65 mill)
Maroon (900k) vs. Blackwell (725k)
Perry (1 mill) vs. Kampf (1.5 mill)
Bellemare (1 mill) vs. Kase (1.25 mill).

I think we both have very cost-effective (and overall effective) bottom 6's. I think the only thing for the Leafs is they need a 4th line with more of an identity. I don't mind a pure defensive 3rd line, but I think we need a 4th line who can feast against lower lines offensively without being a complete liability in their own end. Our 4th line wasn't really doing much of anything out there this year.

 

[bossram]

Count me in on the Robertson is not going to amount to what most think he will. He is too tiny and has no balance which gets him injured all the time. He takes way too long to get his shot off because of his size (doesn't seem to bother Caulfield for some reason) and is pretty slow for a small guy. He looks like another Petan who scored like a maniac in junior or AHL but just can't do it in the NHL. I am 99% sure Knies will be a much better player than Robby. Sell now before everyone else figures out your holding a crappy hand.

I agree. Knies is a much more promising prospect.

For small guys to cut it in the NHL, they'll need at least one, if not some combo, of elite speed, agility, hockey IQ, and "compete". Robertson doesn't have any of the first 3 things.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Given that Simmonds is already signed for the 2022-2023 season and adds a dimension to the roster that nobody else does (some needed bite), I think some people are going to be disappointed when they see that he spends this final season in Toronto playing fairly regularly.

I like him, I just don't think he's worth a roster spot at this point in his career. And certainly not if Spezza is back

 

[IrishInOntario]

The player that some people want to have have back, that I simply do not understand, is Kase... The guy has had like 38 concussions. He cannot take any kind of contact without missing time. This is not the top of guy you want battling for your team in a playoff environment.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Our 4th line wasn't really doing much of anything out there this year.

Or last year, or the year before......

The player that some people want to have have back, that I simply do not understand, is Kase... The guy has had like 38 concussions. He cannot take any kind of contact without missing time. This is not the top of guy you want battling for your team in a playoff environment.

Nope can't have him back. No surprise he wasn't effective in the playoffs after yet another concussion

 

[ToneDog]

How has it been bad? Most of our picks have been from the 2nd round on. The large majority of picks from those rounds take years to develop and most of our picks are 20-21 at the oldest. Most draft picks from the 2nd round on aren't in the NHL by that age. We have many prospects that are on the cusp of making the NHL including:

Robertson
Amirov (health)
Knies
Niemela
Holmberg
Anderson
Steeves
Kral
Abruzzese

Some of these guys are going to be challenging for a spot next year and some likely the year after. Abramov and Hirvonen I think might slowly develop into NHLers in another 2 or so years. With Dermott gone, Sandin should be a full timer now.

As for the Hunter drafts, sure Dubas was here but he was in charge of running the Marlies. Hunter was in charge of the draft. Putting partial blame for Hunter's failures doesn't make much sense if he isn't in charge of the draft table. The word is that Dubas wanted Debrincat at the Korshkov pick and Hunter overruled him for example. It's pretty clear that our prospect pool has been tracking much better under Dubas/Lilley than it was under Lou/Hunter.

Like I said we could be seeing positive results from the Dubas' drafting on the Leafs as soon as this coming season.

Also doesn't make sense to have a young Sandin coming back from injury over veterans Muzzin and Gio. Liljegren not playing was a decision by Keefe who decided to keep Holl in (mistake imo)

Our goaltending development has been pretty bad though. Scott was looking great but the poor kid can't stay off the IR.

Hunter was terrible past the first round. Agreed Dubas is tracking better but we need some of his picks to play.

It is bad because nobody drafted outside the top 10 played (not sure who drafted Engvall but he pretty much did nothing) in the games that mattered most. There is hope for Lily and Sandin though. Knies probably makes it as soon as late next year. Robbie is probably moved at some point.

 

[IrishInOntario]

I like him, I just don't think he's worth a roster spot at this point in his career. And certainly not if Spezza is back

He's incredibly fringe at this point, but I still think he finds his way into the lineup. He's not playing 70 regular season games, IMO, but don't be shocked if he plays 40. The contract is easily to burry, but I'm betting that Dubas / Keefe intend for him to play.

 

[Trapper]

Tampa beefed up their bottom 6 at the TDL by adding Hagel and Paul (the jokers who laughed at Tampa TDL moves are eating crow once again). Meanwhile we could have LTIR'd Muzzin and added a top 6 winger to play with JT and chose not to.

Too much loss in guys like Hyman/Brown/Kadri/Kap/Johnsson/etc. with no good replacements. That’s a lot of depth and quality out the door.
Instead of hoping 2/3 of the same guys always score the big goals, game winning, OT, you need to have 7-9 guys that can give you that option.
Point can’t do it? Nick Paul. Kucherov was sick in the first round? Ross Colton (who?) led a charge in game 4. This team is too heavy and starving below.

 

[bossram]

That's interesting because I don't recall stating an opinion on who the right goalie might be. But go ahead and tell me what my opinion of "the right goalie" is. Before you do though, consider this: you've used the phrase "But you might want to actually put some thought into your response first" a few times, perhaps you should heed your own advice.



So they have to give raises to some RFA's, so what? Sandin and Liljegren are both likely to improve way beyond what their salary increases are, that's something you might want to consider before deciding how our roster will look.

Even if we do have to pay to dump Mrazek, the price will likely be picks which has no impact on our roster.

But you might want to actually put some thought into your response first.

Because you're simultaneously arguing with me no actual arguments of your own. Your whole schtick is, "Akshually, have you considered Gibson might me good?" after I've laid out my reasons for not thinking he will be particularly good. And then when I continue to provide evidence for why/why not to acquire particular goaltenders, you just go, "akshually, I don't have any opinion of any goaltenders, I never said who the right one was". If you don't have any views on these things, why are you discussing them on a discussion board?

And by "look worse", I mean to say that it is simply factual that not every player on the roster in Game 7 will be able to return next season because of cap considerations. They will have to let players go or move them out just for cap space. I did not say the team will "be worse:"

Alright then dude. We cannot discuss anything here. Every goalie is simply Schrodinger's goalie. The salary cap is a figment of my imagination. You got it.

 

[LeafsNik]

Putting aside any potential risks associated with the assumption, the Leafs are either taking on $10.5M or paying something quite grand to have Montreal retain for four seasons.

Possible? Sure. Realistic? Well...

I've actually thought about this as well. It would be a huge gamble for a number of reasons, especially with the overlap on the next Nylander/Marner/Matthews deals . That being said it could be an avenue to rid themselves of some contracts as well. Mrazek/Muzzin/Simmonds for example equal out exactly with the number Price makes. The Leafs would be forced to play Kallgren as the backup goaltender and would be solely relying on the health of an aging Price but that's a risk we have been used to the past few seasons. Interesting outside-the-box thought nonetheless.

 

[bossram]

The roster doesn't have to look worse. That's what the GM is for. If he's wasting a 1st + decent prospect in Robertson to dump Mrazek, I want that money spent on something useful.

Giordano, Lyubushkin and Blackwell aren't needed. Even doing absolutely nothing, Rielly-Muzzin-Sandin and Brodie-Liljegren-Holl is tolerable as a top 6 (Holl is fine as a 3rd pair penaltykiller; that Keefe insists on playing him higher than that is an obvious issue that Dubas doesn't seem interested in fixing). Of course I want improvements, but goal is a higher priority. #3C option and D upgrades come next. If Kampf is still on a shutdown line then I want someone better than Spezza/Blackwell as the #3/4C. Kerfoot has been tried at C before and is no good at it at all, sorry to say.

As for who Dubas should target, meh. The Leafs have a half-dozen pro scouts, they can and will do the work. There's just no way I'm going to be excited if the answers are Puljujarvi and Holmberg.

"Look worse". Because they will have to lose players off the roster due to cap considerations. I don't think they'll really be a worse team, because the core is very strong and the core is staying put.

I'm laying out the reality of the situation. They don't have much cap space to add meaningful pieces. They'll need to clear cap space, and the biggest cap anchor is a goalie no one wants. I'd agree upgrading in goal would be helpful, but again, they have little space and allocating a lot of cap space to the goaltending position will almost necessarily mean there won't be much, if any, cap space to improve the other spots you want improved.

 

[ShaneFalco]

He's incredibly fringe at this point, but I still think he finds his way into the lineup. He's not playing 70 regular season games, IMO, but don't be shocked if he plays 40. The contract is easily to burry, but I'm betting that Dubas / Keefe intend for him to play.

Oh yeah we've seen the loyalty to vets regardless of play

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Count me in on the Robertson is not going to amount to what most think he will. He is too tiny and has no balance which gets him injured all the time. He takes way too long to get his shot off because of his size (doesn't seem to bother Caulfield for some reason) and is pretty slow for a small guy. He looks like another Petan who scored like a maniac in junior or AHL but just can't do it in the NHL. I am 99% sure Knies will be a much better player than Robby. Sell now before everyone else figures out your holding a crappy hand.

Robertson is a much better skater than Petan has been at any point, has a much better shot, and is much more effective in the middle of the ice. Robertson can also PK and can adapt to a bottom 6 role, which is something Petan could never do.

Of course, he still has a lot of room to grow. He is only 20 years old after all, but that did not stop him from coming off of a season where he put up a 47 goal, 82 point pace (over an 82 game season) on a non-playoff team.

 

[Havoc]

Checking in to see if Engvall cut yet.

No? Damn.


Okay bye.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Because you're simultaneously arguing with me no actual arguments of your own. Your whole schtick is, "Akshually, have you considered Gibson might me good?" after I've laid out my reasons for not thinking he will be particularly good. And then when I continue to provide evidence for why/why not to acquire particular goaltenders, you just go, "akshually, I don't have any opinion of any goaltenders, I never said who the right one was". If you don't have any views on these things, why are you discussing them on a discussion board?

And by "look worse", I mean to say that it is simply factual that not every player on the roster in Game 7 will be able to return next season because of cap considerations. They will have to let players go or move them out just for cap space. I did not say the team will "be worse:"

Alright then dude. We cannot discuss anything here. Every goalie is simply Schrodinger's goalie. The salary cap is a figment of my imagination. You got it.

I'm pretty sure I have never suggested Gibson as a possibility.

I'll tell you what, either you find the post where I suggested that Gibson might be good, and I will apologize and admit I was wrong. And if you can't find any such post, then you apologize for accusing me of saying something I never said. Then we can start over on friendly terms and discuss anything you would like to discuss related to the Maple Leafs.

Do we have a deal?

 

[29Potvin]

Copp-Kadri-Kane
Move whatever it takes and bring these guys in and watch the madness unfold!
Add Domi for extra fun