RD Tristan Luneau - Gatineau Olympiques, QMJHL (2022, 53rd, ANA)

BigHitter67

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Some (several, even) are, yes.

Just because some made different career choices doesn't make them any less competent at evaluating prospects by default. This is true in several other industries/fields, too.

Only thing that pros will have over amateur scouts or just everyday people who watch just as many games is more background information on said players.
LOL. I love this place …:)
 

Kairi Zaide

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Ya, and there are some 6'11 accountants that have legitimacy when they say they are better then some NBA players.

You're talking about the exception to the rule and you shouldn't make broad statements about the exception.
I wouldn't say they are that much of an exception. Obviously I'm not talking about the average hockey fan who sees 1-2 game of a prospect. I assumed that the use of the word "amateur" at least tied itself to making a hobby out of it - thinking about it and knowing said user's history, I should have assumed it was used in its pejorative meaning.

(Also your example is kind of an hyperbole that isn't that much of a comparison, as sports in general require full time investment in order to stay at the top; scouting, just like many things for which my statement can be generalized, does not)
:biglaugh::biglaugh:

So you’re telling me that these Joe Shmoes on this website are better than people who have been doing this for most of their life? Good lord!
Most of us here have been watching hockey for most of our lives. Several have even played, coached, etc. Some decide to go on an do that as a vocation; some do not. Not everyone is attracted by this field as a job. The NHL is also a very restricted circle where connections are often far more important than skillsets alone.

If experience had such importance, drafting results wouldn't be so random and there would be some strong correlation with scouting staff experience and drafting success.
LOL. I love this place …:)
What's funny is thinking that one's job title, workplace, etc. is fully representative of their skills.

As stated by a poster before, drafting is far from being an exact science, and randomness is far, far more prevalent than what people want to believe. The main difference that a pro will have compared to an amateur (which as precised earlier, I assume was someone at least making that a hobby, not just hockeydbwatching and who only saw X play at the WJC and in highlight clips) is connections, access to players/staffs/backstages, and easier access to certain 3rd-party tools to which NHL teams can subscribe (which might be too expensive for one single amateur). These can help in a player's projection for sure.

Clarification just so I don't get misquoted or whatever : I'm not saying that most people who would call themselves "hobby scouts", "amateur scouts", etc. are going to perform better than professional scouts. Just that 1) the difference in skillset really isn't what it's made up to be by some, and 2) that there are many who will outperform professional scouts because NHL teams do not employ the Top X "prospect evaluators" in the world. Several people here, with the right connections and dedication to said job (i.e having to write reports, travelling, lots of meetings, etc.) would be able to get jobs at the NHL level.
 
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Tutu to

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I think some people here vastly overestimate a pro scouts ability. Of course they might know a little more because it’s their job and invest more time but I’m sure a lot of them are idiots or have hockey opinions that are simply outdated. Like with most things in life it’s all about who you know and how long you been around.
 

Kalv

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I think some people here vastly overestimate a pro scouts ability. Of course they might know a little more because it’s their job and invest more time but I’m sure a lot of them are idiots or have hockey opinions that are simply outdated. Like with most things in life it’s all about who you know and how long you been around.
Compared to us fans, they're actually watching the prospects play tho :laugh:
 

BondraTime

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Compared to us fans, they're actually watching the prospects play tho :laugh:
It's very, very easy to watch prospects play.

NHL scouts undoubtedly watch more hockey in their specific region than most people. As a group, NHL scouting teams are without a doubt more informed, watching more than most, and getting more information than anyone here. That doesn't make them use that information better than someone watching a league over a full seasons(s).

No person on this site who has comprehensive scouting reads on guys around the world are to be taken very seriously, it's a lot of reading and regurgitation of others work; it takes a group of 10+ scouts to form an informed opinion on just ~100 guys around the world in their draft class, and even then it's a struggle. Guys who have eyes on specific players and leagues definitely have merit based on watching guys throughout the season(s) leading up to the draft.

A whole NHL scouting team had Janakowsi as the best prospect in the entire 2012 draft. Those scouts absolutely watched more hockey than everyone here, and undoubtedly watched more Canadian High School in Quebec than nearly everyone, that doesn't make their evaluation of Janakowski any less dumb or less accurate.
 
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Kalv

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It's very, very easy to watch prospects play.

NHL scouts undoubtedly watch more hockey in their specific region than most people. As a group, NHL scouting teams are without a doubt more informed, watching more than most, and getting more information than anyone here. That doesn't make them use that information better than someone watching a league over a full seasons(s).

No person on this site who has comprehensive scouting reads on guys around the world are to be taken very seriously, it's a lot of reading and regurgitation of others work; it takes a group of 10+ scouts to form an informed opinion on just ~100 guys around the world in their draft class, and even then it's a struggle. Guys who have eyes on specific players and leagues definitely have merit based on watching guys throughout the season(s) leading up to the draft.

A whole NHL scouting team had Janakowsi as the best prospect in the entire 2012 draft. Those scouts absolutely watched more hockey than everyone here, and undoubtedly watched more Canadian High School in Quebec than nearly everyone, that doesn't make their evaluation of Janakowski any less dumb or less accurate.
Does this has any actual proof other than just the team trying to compliment the player publicly?
 

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Always liked this pick, did think it was weird to take Warren before him…. But i guess with zellweger/lacombe/Mintyukov already in the pool, a guy like warrens skill set was a priority.

As great as minty zell lacombe and luneau look, it’s important for us to have guys like helleson, Warren and hinds to compliment them.
 
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bert

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I think some people here vastly overestimate a pro scouts ability. Of course they might know a little more because it’s their job and invest more time but I’m sure a lot of them are idiots or have hockey opinions that are simply outdated. Like with most things in life it’s all about who you know and how long you been around.
Around here I actually think its the opposite. Massively underrating what these professionals do, this post is a good example.

I watched Luneau and Warren 6 times live in their draft years. Its actually a very interesting study following these two prospects. Considering the debate about being bigger as a jr and if that will continue into the pros. The ability to project a player like Luneau who at the time lacked speed and strength. The ability to evaluate hockey sense and if the body would ever catch up. Will Warren ultimately have a longer development curve because he is bigger... Even though he looked more advanced in their drafts. I am going to follow this closely. Would be a great case study considering they are on the same Jr team and were drafted by the same organization.

In my viewings in their draft year Warren quite clearly looked like the more physically dominant and more developed player. I was with a scout from another organization and he was dead set on Warren being the prospect he liked more. However the more I watched the more you noticed Luneau's hockey sense he is rarely if ever out of position. Seemed to me like a poor mans Redden. You really had to ask if he would ever have the physical tools. I personally was split on it at the time but I did note that if he did improve his skating he could be the better player. I wouldnt have used a first on either of them at the time, so I dont blame teams for passing on them and waiting until the 2nd round.

Well here we are a year later and what a difference. Luneau's explosiveness has increased in leaps and bounds. I cant remember a player improving this much in such a short period of time. Not just his skating but his shot, stick handling, everything is faster and in more control. His newfound physical attributes have pushed his hockey sense and vision to a completely different level. He is absolutely dominant out there. Best player on in my opinon the best team in the Q and O (I havent seen much of the WHL to form an opinion). This Gatineau team is an absolute wagon and has everything to go all the way. What they did to the 67's who are beating everyone in the OHL was eye opening. In a redraft Luneau is easily a first rounder now. Really fun player to watch, what a steal by the Ducks.
 
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bert

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Hindsight scouts.
Example A.

Agree with this completely.
lamoureux ahead of luneau????

even worse, Warren ahead of Luneau. Can you imagine they are both on same team and scouts thinking Warren is better. Anaheim lucky to get Luneau where they did.
Easy with hind sight. If you watched them in their draft years you wouldnt be saying this.

I'm someone who has scouted Luneau and Warren since they were 13 years old as underagers in Bantam AAA in Quebec.

Luneau has always been miles ahead as a player, and Warren has always had that physical advantage. I can understand that teams will try to find these huge, mobile and physical defenders that can be tough to play against.

To me, it is however strange that a player that was used (in terms of minutes) as the #5 defenseman on his team got drafted ahead of the guy that's been used as the #1 since he was 16. How can Warren be considered as that incredible defensive defenseman and Luneau an offensive defenseman when he's the one who often ends up having the harder assignments and doing much better in that role anyway?

I know I would have picked Luneau way ahead, all day long, but I've been a huge fan of his for so long now that my view may be blurred.
Interesting. I only really watched them in Jr, especially in their draft years it was flip a coin as to who was better. Luneau's physical attributes didnt look like a first rounder. Obviously that has changed. He is a legit stud and maybe the steal of the draft.
 

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I also find this scout discussion interesting considering it was ANaheim that drafted them and Anaheim has shown they are basically #1 when it comes to drafting defensemen.

I trust ANaheims amateur scouts more then anyone when it comes to drafting defensemen.
 

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This recent discussion has fascinated me.
First, I "picked" Luneau in the first round here.

Second (you can quit reading because I admit to not watching juniors), I do think there are ways to improve what professional scouts do.
1)There was obviously artistic license, but I believe "Moneyball" depicted some truths about scouts. I believe many (not all, maybe not most) professional scouts are blinded by their own expertise. This belief stemmed from my fascination with behavioral economics and its findings--like those depicted in "Predictably Irrational" and "Thinking Fast and Slow." For instance, pre-draft interviews are still used and some think they are really important. Most academics who have studied the subject have found that interviews don't help, and often hurt, candidate selection in many fields. One of the main reasons I starting paying attention to prospects is because I was trying to create a model that identifies some defensive prospects that scouts likely under-value.
2) I have been refining the model for 5+ years. The results have been strong (at least from my perspective). For instance, last season the model identified Jake Furlong, Adam Engstrom, Tomas Hamara, and Frederic Brunet as D who should have been drafted anytime after the middle of the second round.
3) There is currently no model for forwards (and goalies are, well, goalies). But I am tinkering with several factors that may be valuable. The most intriguing is GWP% (games with points). I started wondering if players who scored more consistently were undervalued. I tried using this in my picks in last year''s Basement Stakes. I would say the one resounding success was picking Gendron in the 7th. My list is heavy on D, since that is my focus. The objective to pick as Buffalo. With Dahlin, Samuelsson, and Power all being left-shots there is little reason to believe the Sabres will have room for another in the next decade. That explains why Luneau was high on my Basement Stakes list (though behind Gaucher, a player mentioned several times in this discussion) and also Salin's position. My model didn't single Salin out because his "consensus" ranking was end of the 2nd round--so him going in the 5th means he was in fact under-valued by the NHL scouting community.
4) No way would I argue that I am better than most NHL scouts at drafting. I would argue that my model has come far enough that it does somewhat better than the majority of teams at drafting D-men after the 2nd round. Though there is a team or two each draft that seems to do what my model suggests: Brock Faber was drafted higher than his pre-draft rankings as my model indicated he should be; Montreal did a great job taking Adam Engstrom in the 3rd even though he wasn't on any top 100 list.
5) It is at least arguable that the three first round picks I made in the Basement Stakes (Savoie, Kulich, Luneau) were as strong as Buffalo's picks (Savoie, Ostlund, Kulich) given the facts that most now have Kulich rated at least equal to Ostlund and Luneau looks like a perfect future partner for Power. I also think Salin/Furlong are preferable to Lindgren/Komarov at 106 and 134.

I have two arguments for why it might be possible to do as well as professional scouts. 1) They likely have biases for things like size (which I use as one of many factors) and intangibles that lead to group think. 2) A model-heavy approach can "see" every game while most scouting staffs only get at most a dozen viewings of a player taken after the first two rounds.

As I said, I am fascinated in both the Luneau and the scouting parts of this discussion.
 

Hale The Villain

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Once you understand that NHL scouts are almost entirely nepotism hires, the idea that they have some kind of special expertise goes out the window.

Luneau started slow last year but was producing at close to a PPG clip in 2022 and obviously he's an all-around D with good size and great IQ.

No idea how teams let a potential top 4 RHD fall to the late 2nd.
 

bert

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Once you understand that NHL scouts are almost entirely nepotism hires, the idea that they have some kind of special expertise goes out the window.

Luneau started slow last year but was producing at close to a PPG clip in 2022 and obviously he's an all-around D with good size and great IQ.

No idea how teams let a potential top 4 RHD fall to the late 2nd.
What an embarrassing thing to say. Is that your excuse for not being one? lol.
 

Hale The Villain

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What an embarrassing thing to say. Is that your excuse for not being one? lol.

Do you think they all graduated top of their class at Hockey University and that's how they got their jobs?

For the most part they are a bunch of former minor leaguers who used their hockey connections to get a job watching hockey for a living.

Let's not pretend other people can't watch the same prospects and come to better conclusions about their future than NHL scouts. You cheer for a team that took Tyler Boucher 10th overall for god's sake.
 

bert

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Do you think they all graduated top of their class at Hockey University and that's how they got their jobs?

For the most part they are a bunch of former minor leaguers who used their hockey connections to get a job watching hockey for a living.

Let's not pretend other people can't watch the same prospects and come to better conclusions about their future than NHL scouts. You cheer for a team that took Tyler Boucher 10th overall for god's sake.
I think they have had exposure to the game that normal people havent. Whether it be by growing up with people in it or playing it at a high enough level to understand it is a massive advantage. Prepares someone much better than a fan that played house league and watches it on t.v. So if thats what you mean by hockey university then yes. But to go even further it would be the people/former players that were the best at identifying specific traits would be the ones graduating to scouting.

If you think just watching it on t.v is the same type of education you are living in a dream world. Actually being around it, playing in systems, seeing players on and off the ice every day. Their practice habits etc all helps in understanding the sport. Having actual hands on experience helps, like in any field in any industry. To think you know better with none of this exposure/experience would be the most HF boards answer/mindset that is so off base there are no words to describe it.
 

Hale The Villain

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I think they have had exposure to the game that normal people havent. Whether it be by growing up with people in it or playing it at a high enough level to understand it is a massive advantage. Prepares someone much better than a fan that played house league and watches it on t.v. So if thats what you mean by hockey university then yes. But to go even further it would be the people/former players that were the best at identifying specific traits would be the ones graduating to scouting.

If you think just watching it on t.v is the same type of education you are living in a dream world. Actually being around it, playing in systems, seeing players on and off the ice every day. Their practice habits etc all helps in understanding the sport. Having actual hands on experience helps, like in any field in any industry. To think you know better with none of this exposure/experience would be the most HF boards answer/mindset that is so off base there are no words to describe it.

Some of that stuff undoubtedly helps, but at the end of the day we're talking about watching a game here.

It isn't brain surgery and hands-on experience isn't exactly a pre-requisite to have ideas on which young hockey players will end up being the best NHLers.
 

Mrb1p

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Once you understand that NHL scouts are almost entirely nepotism hires, the idea that they have some kind of special expertise goes out the window.

Luneau started slow last year but was producing at close to a PPG clip in 2022 and obviously he's an all-around D with good size and great IQ.

No idea how teams let a potential top 4 RHD fall to the late 2nd.
Amen
 

bert

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Some of that stuff undoubtedly helps, but at the end of the day we're talking about watching a game here.

It isn't brain surgery and hands-on experience isn't exactly a pre-requisite to have ideas on which young hockey players will end up being the best NHLers.
Of course it is. Anyway dont want to derail this thread anymore.

Luneau has improved in leaps and bounds from last season. He is way stronger and faster than he was and its brough out the best parts of his game.

Of course you agree.
 

Mrb1p

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Of course it is. Anyway dont want to derail this thread anymore.

Luneau has improved in leaps and bounds from last season. He is way stronger and faster than he was and its brough out the best parts of his game.


Of course you agree.
Of course I do, I have the track record to show for it.

WheReS BrOok, amirite ? Probably at the same spot as Drouin and Forsberg, whom Im probably the only person in the world that was right on them.
 

Michoulicious

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Of course it is. Anyway dont want to derail this thread anymore.

Luneau has improved in leaps and bounds from last season. He is way stronger and faster than he was and its brough out the best parts of his game.


Of course you agree.
I agree that pro scouts have most of the time more tools to be successful than fans like us.

However, getting back to Luneau, having followed him for a while, I really have a hard time to see how someone could think Warren was better than him... Like ever. I mean, he was, even coming back from injury, the clear leader on that blue line.

Luneau was always a phenomenal talent. He was drafted #1 OA in the Q for a reason. Nothing against Warren, but beside being 3 inches bigger, he's not very close in term if overall talent and hockey sense.

Anyways, great pick by Anaheim.
 

Kalv

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Uses his skating when given a chance, makes quick decisions, has a great first pass, and likes to involve offensively while also being good defensively when needed.

Certainly needs to polish some stuff but I think he's tracking very well to be an NHL player.
 

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