RD Simon Edvinsson - Grand Rapids Griffins., AHL (2021, 6th, DET)

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I don't see Dahlin in that list and he is nowhere close to the impact on defence that Seider has for his team.

Is this a joke? Assists?

Dahlin has the 2nd best scoring season for an 18 year old in NHL history. Ahead of Orr and only 2nd to Housley.

He also is 2nd most leading scorer in teenage scoring as a teen. And you going to nitpick assists? You really thought you did something there.

By the time Dahlin turned 20, he had scored more points than any teenage defenseman in NHL history not named Phil Housley.

Dahlin returned to form while shouldering top-pair minutes

 

[AB13]

Well your opinion of Dahlin seems to be a bit too high. Seider is miles ahead defensively already, and Edvinsson also projects as being a much stronger defensive player (being much more trusted in that role in SHL than Dahlin was). Offensively, Dahlin has some incredible qualities but he hasn't been as good as advertised at all. Makar is basically what people though Dahlin would be.

I think Dahlin is performing just as good as Makar with the puck and do think his production would be just as good in a more favorable situation. I honestly think Dahlin is a top 10 defenceman in the NHL. He is stuck on a terrible team but one of the best play drivers in the world. An absolute genius with the puck and an unbelievable passer+creative player. I watch him with eyes instead of using possession based corsi stats to come to this conclusion. I think he has been borderline elite for a while, in any season besides 2020/21. Anyone who does the same sees the obvious ability Dahlin has.

Dahlin is certainly good defensively too. I think he was a better pure defensive player than Edvinsson at the same age.

 

[cjeagle]

Is this a joke? Assists?

Dahlin has the 2nd best scoring season for an 18 year old in NHL history. Ahead of Orr and only 2nd to Housley.

He also is 2nd most leading scorer in teenage scoring as a teen. And you going to nitpick assists? You really thought you did something there.



Dahlin returned to form while shouldering top-pair minutes

Dahlin had 35 assists his rookie year, 36 his 2nd year, which then went down to 18 his third year in the league.

Compared to Seider's 5 goals and 30 assists in 51 games his rookie year, Dahlin only garnered 9 goals and 35 assists in a total of 82 games. You would think Seider's performance in his shorter period of time he has been in the NHL is more impressive which is why he is ranked among many all time greats

What is even more impressive is that Seider has maintained a +/- of +2 in a rebuilding team with a negative +/- of -29 which speaks to how effective he is at both ends of the ice when he is playing extended minutes for Detroit. He is also used extensively on both special teams unlike Dahlin whose defensive play is suspect.

Dahlin by comparison had a +/- of -13 his rookie year topped off by a -36 his third year in the NHL which means whatever offensive contributions he makes on the ice at even strength is negated by the goals his team gives up when he is on the ice making him a liability. Dahlin has never had a positive +/- stat in the 4 years he has been playing in the NHL and has accumulated a total of -68 for his career so far in just a few short years.

Sure the +/- is reflective of team play as well which makes it even more impressive that Seider can maintain a positive +/- stat of +2 while his rebuilding Redwings team are at or close to -30.

 

[RazorSeider53]

Dahlin is one of the best passers in the NHL and the most skillful defenceman I have ever seen at 18,19,20 years old. Edvinsson doesn’t have nearly Dahlins offensive toolbox. I think they are similarly good defensively.

I guess I am also higher on Dahlin than most though, I think he is the second best asset any team can have in the NHL, after McDavid. But comparing Edvinsson to Dahlin is overhyping Edvinsson, although I really like Edvinsson. Edvinsson is in a tier below but obviously a super high end player.

Yeeessshh. I’m not saying Dahlin couldn’t be that, but he’s done absolutely nothing to justify calling him the 2nd best asset to McDavid over the likes of MacKinnon, Makar, Drai, Fox, etc.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

You think Rasmus Dahlin is the 2nd best asset in the entire NHL? That's what he was supposed to be maybe, but he hasn't lived up to those expectations. Seider has already been better in his first season than Dahlin has been in his fourth

The expectations look like they'll be met so far.

Not sure the bold is true.

Dahlin has some incredible qualities but he hasn't been as good as advertised at all. Makar is basically what people though Dahlin would be.

He kind of has been that good. I'd still take Dahlin.

I don't see Dahlin in that list and he is nowhere close to the impact on defence that Seider has for his team. In fact Dahlin can be a liability on defence sometimes.

Seider has always been known for his defensive and physical dominance in Europe but what this season has shown is that his offensive skills is just as good at the NHL level which doubles the impact he has for his team in terms of all around play.

You don't see Dahlin on that list because you didn't see Makar/Seider in the NHL until they were a couple of years older than Dahlin. Also because they cut it off, Dahlin had 31 assists in 66 games I'm pretty sure, and as an 18yo for the whole season.

I believe the list you're looking for is most points all time for 18yo/U20 defenceman.

The bold is just not true.

 

[Guy Tetreault]

You think Rasmus Dahlin is the 2nd best asset in the entire NHL? That's what he was supposed to be maybe, but he hasn't lived up to those expectations. Seider has already been better in his first season than Dahlin has been in his fourth

Dahlin has a handicap. It's Buffalo! It's still a school club! This handicap will gradually disappear and Dahlin will become the best offensive defenseman in the NHL.

 

[Henkka]

Really?

Like...you really think that?

I laughed.

We'll see what happens when Owen Power comes to Buffalo and takes the 1D duties to carry the franchise.

Then maybe horribly regressing Dahlin becomes hopefully a 2nd pair defenceman.

 

[cjeagle]

The expectations look like they'll be met so far.

Not sure the bold is true.



He kind of has been that good. I'd still take Dahlin.



You don't see Dahlin on that list because you didn't see Makar/Seider in the NHL until they were a couple of years older than Dahlin. Also because they cut it off, Dahlin had 31 assists in 66 games I'm pretty sure, and as an 18yo for the whole season.

I believe the list you're looking for is most points all time for 18yo/U20 defenceman.

The bold is just not true.

Seider was just as dominant offensively in Europe at the same point in their respective careers and even won the Best Defenceman award last year in the SHL as well as at the 2021 World Championships that included many NHL caliber defenceman playing for their teams.

If we are comparing similar points in their respective careers in the NHL (at D+3) Dahlin had a very average record of 5-18-23 with a horrible +/- of -36 in just 56 games while Seider in his rookie year has a much more impressive 5-30-35 with a positive +/- of +2 in 51 games.

Dahlin's offensive contributions doesn't mean anything if his team gives up a lot more goals than they gain whenever he is on the ice.

BTW, Dahlin played 82 games his rookie year from which he gained only a total of 35 assists making Seider's 30 assists in 51 games much more impressive.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I think he was a better pure defensive player than Edvinsson at the same age.

There just isn't much to support such a claim. The fact that the same SHL coach on the same SHL team used Dahlin in a sheltered offensive role and Edvinsson in a non-sheltered defensive role should tell you something.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

There just isn't much to support such a claim. The fact that the same SHL coach on the same SHL team used Dahlin in a sheltered offensive role and Edvinsson in a non-sheltered defensive role should tell you something.

It might tell you that Dahlin hadn't been drafted yet

 

[Pavels Dog]

It might tell you that Dahlin hadn't been drafted yet

I wasn't aware that being drafted granted you some kind of extra skills.

Dahlin at 17 was basically a more advanced, more experienced and more refined prospect than Edvinsson at 18 going into this season. I see nothing wrong with comparing their SHL performance to contextualize how they compare as players.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

Seider was just as dominant offensively in Europe at the same point in their respective careers and even won the Best Defenceman award last year in the SHL as well as at the 2021 World Championships that included many NHL caliber defenceman playing for their teams.

If we are comparing similar points in their respective careers in the NHL (at D+3) Dahlin had a very average record of 5-18-23 with a horrible +/- of -36 in just 56 games while Seider in his rookie year has a much more impressive 5-30-35 with a positive +/- of +2 in 51 games.

Dahlin's offensive contributions doesn't mean anything if his team gives up a lot more goals than they gain whenever he is on the ice.

BTW, Dahlin played 82 games his rookie year from which he gained only a total of 35 assists making Seider's 30 assists in 51 games more impressive.

What do you even mean with this one, Dahlin had 20 in 41 his draft year. Seider had 6 in 29. The year before they made the NHL isn't the same point of their careers.

BTW, again, Dahlin was 18yo in his rookie year (and also played for the Sabres). Also using last year for any argument isn't going to get you anywhere with how bad Krueger was. It isn't indicative of anything moving forward.

+/- doesn't usually mean much. The Sabres were worse in Dahlin’s rookie year and have a worse differential this year. Our goalies have been pretty bad at points. Dahlin isn't actually bad at defense. When the team is cleaned up next year and hopefully has way less injuries to important players, watch out.

 

[cjeagle]

What do you even mean with this one, Dahlin had 20 in 41 his draft year. Seider had 6 in 29. The year before they made the NHL isn't the same point of their careers.

BTW, again, Dahlin was 18yo in his rookie year (and also played for the Sabres). Also using last year for any argument isn't going to get you anywhere with how bad Krueger was. It isn't indicative of anything moving forward.

+/- doesn't usually mean much. The Sabres were worse in Dahlin’s rookie year and have a worse differential this year. Our goalies have been pretty bad at points. Dahlin isn't actually bad at defense. When the team is cleaned up next year and hopefully has way less injuries to important players, watch out.

The Sabres has been saying that for years now buddy despite having so many top draft picks handed to them thru the years.

The +/- stat is reflective of the team not just the player and should be seen in that context.

Detroit is still a rebuilding team with a +/- of -29 which makes Seider's positive +/- of +2 in 51 games quite impressive.

In contrast Dahlin has never come close to an even +/- his entire career despite playing for a constantly rebuilding Sabres team.

 

[DollardStLaurent]

Dahlin is certainly good defensively too

I have to strongly disagree with this statement.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

The Sabres has been saying that for years now buddy despite having so many top draft picks handed to them thru the years.

I'll take it that since you didn't actually address my post, you acknowledge that you're posts had really weak arguments or was otherwise just incorrect.

We have been saying it and we have been accumulating a large amount of talented young players. We've had injuries and some very bad goaltending this year, and Tuch/Krebs have barely played. We're adding Mitts, Power, Quinn, Peterka next year, have another high 1st this year and 2 extra late ones, on top of a bunch of other prospects in the mix. Dahlin will thrive.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Dahlin isn't actually bad at defense. When the team is cleaned up next year and hopefully has way less injuries to important players, watch out.

There's always excuses for Dahlin though.
Fact is he's not had great defensive results (counting stats, analytics) or been used in a very defensive capacity at any point in his career. At some point you have to judge what's actually there (most people's eye test also aligns with him not being terrific defensively so far at the NHL level).

 

[RedHawkDown]

Dahlin is definitely great offensively but he’s atrocious on D and I’m not sure how you can argue otherwise. The eye test confirms it too.

Good defensive players don’t need an amazing team around them to play good defense. Seider also has a trash team around him. The REASON they’re so much better this year is quite literally him.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

There's always excuses for Dahlin though.
Fact is he's not had great defensive results (counting stats, analytics) or been used in a very defensive capacity at any point in his career. At some point you have to judge what's actually there (most people's eye test also aligns with him not being terrific defensively so far at the NHL level).

I absolutely love the "always an excuse" crowd, good for a laugh. The fact is he's been on one of the worst teams in the league since day 1 and Krueger was one of the worst coaches ever. At some point you have to judge what's actually there (and not the team), he just isn't bad defensively, certainly not nearly as bad as some others suggest like the clown below.


I don't know what tears I'll enjoy more, those of the people who somehow think the Sabres are going to be bad forever and just ignore what we have coming up, or those of the highly uninformed Dahlin haters that are everywhere on here.

Dahlin is definitely great offensively but he’s atrocious on D and I’m not sure how you can argue otherwise. The eye test confirms it too.

Good defensive players don’t need an amazing team around them to play good defense. Seider also has a trash team around him. The REASON they’re so much better this year is quite literally him.

I genuinely can't see how you wouldn't be able to argue against such a horrific take. Might want to phone an Optometrist.

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

Welcome to the Rasmus Dahlin debate thread, occasionally featuring Simon Edvinsson

 

[RedHawkDown]

I absolutely love the "always an excuse" crowd, good for a laugh. The fact is he's been on one of the worst teams in the league since day 1 and Krueger was one of the worst coaches ever. At some point you have to judge what's actually there (and not the team), he just isn't bad defensively, certainly not nearly as bad as some others suggest like the clown below.


I don't know what tears I'll enjoy more, those of the people who somehow think the Sabres are going to be bad forever and just ignore what we have coming up, or those of the highly uninformed Dahlin haters that are everywhere on here.




I genuinely can't see how you wouldn't be able to argue against such a horrific take. Might want to phone an Optometrist.

Yeah I guess the rest of the league is out to lunch with this opinion and it’s sabres fans who can see the light on their elite offensive Dman with great defensive play who somehow still can’t keep them out of the basement.

newsflash, teams with a defenseman like that typically aren’t basement teams because those guys play nearly half the game and if they’re elite defensively they make a massive impact, which prevents their teams from being basement dwellers. Then there’s Dahlin and his -36 lol

anyways it’s an Edvinsson thread. Simon definitely does not have dahlins offense but he is much better defensively. Should be a top2 D in the nhl

 

[cjeagle]

Enough of the Dahlin-Seider comparisons. It is obvious who is the better overall NHL player of those 2 and who has the larger impact at both ends of the ice for his NHL team.

Let's compare Dahlin(during his time as a prospect in Sweden) to Edvinsson since this is the latter's thread.

A source, with ties to the Swedish team, told Detroit Hockey Now that Edvinssson “was a monster” in the game.

“He looks better than Rasmus Dahlin did at the same age,” the source said. “He has the same offensive game and is much stronger.”

Edvinsson is a full-service defenseman. He plays physical, is mindful of his defensive play and carries the puck with authority. (Of those 3 attributes only the latter can be said of Dahlin)

“You have to go back to Victor Hedman to find a comparable Swedish D-man, aged 18,” the source said. “The Red Wings have a gem in Simon.”

 

[cjeagle]

 

[cjeagle]

** Rank Edvinsson among young defenders you played with?
- Number one! I've never seen a young guy do everything he does. Sure, "Raz" ( Rasmus Dahlin ) was fantastic, do not get me wrong there, but where Simon is in his young career, to look so good 15 matches in - he dominates the matches. Unbelievable.
Lasch continued:
- He can be the best defender I have ever played with.
** Not just the best kid?
- No, the best. It will be exciting to follow his career.

Laschs hyllning till Edvinsson – bäste backen han spelat med

 

[cjeagle]

 

[Oddbob]

Why do we need to run down one to hype up another? Rasmus has played on a shit show his whole career, so much of his performance needs to be shown against that. Seider playing so well for us is an exception, but that doesn't mean others suck. Seider would be struggling in Buffalo as well, maybe not as much defensively (I think he is better than Rasmus here), but offensively he wouldn't be playing with Larkin, Raymond and Bertuzzi.