RD Moritz Seider (2019, 6th, DET) Part 2

[snipes]

Ehh. McGuire makes the claim he has offensive upside twice, and even Button himself says the Red Wings must think he has more offense than Carlo. Remember he got on a lot of radars after having 7 points in 5 games at the WJC.

He was really good at the IIHF WHC playing against men as well.

Looks like Yzerman hit a home run with him, he’s got clear all situations 25-30 minutes a night #1 D man written all over him.

 

[seadawg]

Is anyone bold enough to predict Seider's offensive upside? Many have danced around it, and some have said it doesn't matter how many points he puts up because he's going to be a #1 dman who can play 25+ minutes a night and he will make life miserable for the opposition. All of that is absolutely true, and quite frankly obvious. What is hard to gauge is his offensive upside. It is clear from his production in every league he has played in that he has offensive skills. The question is, how many points can he put up in the NHL? Will he be on the power play for Detroit, or is that role locked up by Hronek?

Even if he doesn't put up decent offensive numbers, he will be a valuable player for Detroit, but is anyone bold enough to actually give a prediction? I haven't watched him enough to give a prediction myself. I saw him play a bit at the Juniors, but that's it other than highlights. I'm curious to hear from those who have watched him play numerous times, and in particular Detroit fans who know the make up of their team and know what offensive role, if any, he can play on the team.

 

[19 for president]

Is anyone bold enough to predict Seider's offensive upside? Many have danced around it, and some have said it doesn't matter how many points he puts up because he's going to be a #1 dman who can play 25+ minutes a night and he will make life miserable for the opposition. All of that is absolutely true, and quite frankly obvious. What is hard to gauge is his offensive upside. It is clear from his production in every league he has played in that he has offensive skills. The question is, how many points can he put up in the NHL? Will he be on the power play for Detroit, or is that role locked up by Hronek?

Even if he doesn't put up decent offensive numbers, he will be a valuable player for Detroit, but is anyone bold enough to actually give a prediction? I haven't watched him enough to give a prediction myself. I saw him play a bit at the Juniors, but that's it other than highlights. I'm curious to hear from those who have watched him play numerous times, and in particular Detroit fans who know the make up of their team and know what offensive role, if any, he can play on the team.

I feel like he will probably be in the 35-45 point range most years. Unless he develops his shot more (which he totally could) I just don't see him being the primary d option on a power player at the NHL level. The trend now is to run 4 forwards and 1 dman, and he doesn't have the point shot to be the 1 dman at the point currently. Now if Detroit were to run 2 dman again like they did in Lids heydey I think he could be a good QB because he has great hockey sense and vision. He is also great at keeping the puck in the zone. Right now I would expect Hronek in the 1st PP dman role long term, and as that is where the big producing dman get most of their points, I don't see Seider being able to reach Hedman like point levels. He reminds me a lot of Vladdy. Not quite as mean, but just as physical. Underrated offensive skills, but will always probably defer to a more "offensive" dman on the team for the 1st PP. I'm think 25 min, 1st PK, 2nd PP is probably the role he'll have long term.

 

[saska sault]

Seider has 50 to 60 point potential. I dont think that's a stretch when talking players ceilings, and hitting on a player of his size, physical ability and the fact he has been playing against men for 3 years.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Is anyone bold enough to predict Seider's offensive upside? Many have danced around it, and some have said it doesn't matter how many points he puts up because he's going to be a #1 dman who can play 25+ minutes a night and he will make life miserable for the opposition. All of that is absolutely true, and quite frankly obvious. What is hard to gauge is his offensive upside. It is clear from his production in every league he has played in that he has offensive skills. The question is, how many points can he put up in the NHL? Will he be on the power play for Detroit, or is that role locked up by Hronek?

Even if he doesn't put up decent offensive numbers, he will be a valuable player for Detroit, but is anyone bold enough to actually give a prediction? I haven't watched him enough to give a prediction myself. I saw him play a bit at the Juniors, but that's it other than highlights. I'm curious to hear from those who have watched him play numerous times, and in particular Detroit fans who know the make up of their team and know what offensive role, if any, he can play on the team.

I think if he can continue to develop his offense he can put up a solid 35-45 most years, and maybe have a couple random seasons where he hits at or near 60.

That's the f***ed up thing with Seider. His ceiling is pretty unknown. Everybody knows his defense is insane, but every time people think they've pinned down his offensive potential, he raises the bar. And considering he plays in a different league every single year, it's hard to gauge whether that's his game developing or the difference in leagues.

 

[NotLeddy]

I feel like he will probably be in the 35-45 point range most years. Unless he develops his shot more (which he totally could) I just don't see him being the primary d option on a power player at the NHL level. The trend now is to run 4 forwards and 1 dman, and he doesn't have the point shot to be the 1 dman at the point currently. Now if Detroit were to run 2 dman again like they did in Lids heydey I think he could be a good QB because he has great hockey sense and vision. He is also great at keeping the puck in the zone. Right now I would expect Hronek in the 1st PP dman role long term, and as that is where the big producing dman get most of their points, I don't see Seider being able to reach Hedman like point levels. He reminds me a lot of Vladdy. Not quite as mean, but just as physical. Underrated offensive skills, but will always probably defer to a more "offensive" dman on the team for the 1st PP. I'm think 25 min, 1st PK, 2nd PP is probably the role he'll have long term.

Seider's power play zone entries are smarter and more effective than Hronek's. Hronek has not been a good PPQB at the NHL level (he can get better, but given how much he's struggled with zone entries, lazy turnovers, generating offense etc. at the NHL level so far, I highly doubt he's their #1RD/PPQB for when Detroit climbs out of the rebuild.)

I think he'll take Hronek's current role from him as soon as 2021-22, which will be interesting as that's when Hronek needs a new contract. Seider doesn't have the shot Hronek has sure.. but he's smarter, more composed, more physically mature, harder to knock of the puck etc. etc.

Seider definitely isn't the conventional PPQB type of player of course, but everytime I've watched him play on the PP with Rogle and Grand Rapids, it's hard to say that he doesn't belong there. His keep-ins at the blue line, his deceptive passes, his willingness to shoot the puck etc. are definitely more encouraging than Hronek's power play habits were in his first full season in Grand Rapids, when he was two years older than Seider.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Anyone know if Seider is going to play in the World Juniors? I feel like he would seriously bully some people.

 

[EXTRAS]

Anyone know if Seider is going to play in the World Juniors? I feel like he would seriously bully some people.

He isn't playing

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Anyone know if Seider is going to play in the World Juniors? I feel like he would seriously bully some people.

No. Turns out if you murder a kid they don't let you play hockey anymore. Didn't want to risk it.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Seider's power play zone entries are smarter and more effective than Hronek's. Hronek has not been a good PPQB at the NHL level (he can get better, but given how much he's struggled with zone entries, lazy turnovers, generating offense etc. at the NHL level so far, I highly doubt he's their #1RD/PPQB for when Detroit climbs out of the rebuild.)

I think he'll take Hronek's current role from him as soon as 2021-22, which will be interesting as that's when Hronek needs a new contract. Seider doesn't have the shot Hronek has sure.. but he's smarter, more composed, more physically mature, harder to knock of the puck etc. etc.

Seider definitely isn't the conventional PPQB type of player of course, but everytime I've watched him play on the PP with Rogle and Grand Rapids, it's hard to say that he doesn't belong there. His keep-ins at the blue line, his deceptive passes, his willingness to shoot the puck etc. are definitely more encouraging than Hronek's power play habits were in his first full season in Grand Rapids, when he was two years older than Seider.

Tbh I really wouldn't mind having both Hronek and Seider on the same PP. I know the standard these days are 4F/1D, but Hronek's shot is enough of an asset that he can take the "Ovechkin-position" with Seider manning the blueline.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Tbh I really wouldn't mind having both Hronek and Seider on the same PP. I know the standard these days are 4F/1D, but Hronek's shot is enough of an asset that he can take the "Ovechkin-position" with Seider manning the blueline.

Pretty sure the, "Ovechkin position", is being slotted for Zadina.

Having two solid PP units ain't a bad thing. Sure as hell beats the garbage we've been icing on the 2nd unit.

 

[Stony Curtis]

No. Turns out if you murder a kid they don't let you play hockey anymore. Didn't want to risk it.

His lawyer could try an insanity defense. "Your Honor, clearly his victim...er...I mean opponent was insane to try and cut through the middle of the ice. I mean, don't they even video, bro?"

 

[Pavels Dog]

Pretty sure the, "Ovechkin position", is being slotted for Zadina.

Having two solid PP units ain't a bad thing. Sure as hell beats the garbage we've been icing on the 2nd unit.

Hronek on one side, Zadina on the other, it's gonna be lit.

 

[Killerjas]

Mo the Tank

 

[Killerjas]

Anyone know if Seider is going to play in the World Juniors? I feel like he would seriously bully some people.

No, he opted out, he prefered staying in Sweden playing against men

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

This guy is an absolute beast. Gives me Pronger like vibes. Or like Parayko. He's also really level headed. You should watch the Stutzle draft documentary video where you see Seider in a lot of the clips and his composure and size (off the ice).

Raymond was a spectacular pickup for Red Wings but can you imagine they picked Sanderson too? Sanderson been looking nuts and him and Seider woulda built a wall.

Atlantic division got much harder to play in with Seider in it. Jeez.

No, he opted out, he prefered staying in Sweden playing against men

Nothing else left for him to prove in WJC and his development far greater in SHL. But ugh, if there was a year Germany coulda made serious splash it coulda been this one with Seider, Stutzle, Peterka, Reichel etc. Shame we wont see it.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

.

 

[Go Wings]

This guy is an absolute beast. Gives me Pronger like vibes. Or like Parayko. He's also really level headed. You should watch the Stutzle draft documentary video where you see Seider in a lot of the clips and his composure and size (off the ice).

Raymond was a spectacular pickup for Red Wings but can you imagine they picked Sanderson too? Sanderson been looking nuts and him and Seider woulda built a wall.

Atlantic division got much harder to play in with Seider in it. Jeez.



Nothing else left for him to prove in WJC and his development far greater in SHL. But ugh, if there was a year Germany coulda made serious splash it coulda been this one with Seider, Stutzle, Peterka, Reichel etc. Shame we wont see it.

We can draft Owen Power in the 2021 draft and have The Two Towers paired together.

 

[Fogelhund]

We can draft Owen Power in the 2021 draft and have The Two Towers paired together.

The rest of the division says, no thanks.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

This guy is an absolute beast. Gives me Pronger like vibes. Or like Parayko. He's also really level headed. You should watch the Stutzle draft documentary video where you see Seider in a lot of the clips and his composure and size (off the ice).

Raymond was a spectacular pickup for Red Wings but can you imagine they picked Sanderson too? Sanderson been looking nuts and him and Seider woulda built a wall.

Atlantic division got much harder to play in with Seider in it. Jeez.



Nothing else left for him to prove in WJC and his development far greater in SHL. But ugh, if there was a year Germany coulda made serious splash it coulda been this one with Seider, Stutzle, Peterka, Reichel etc. Shame we wont see it.

I can live without Sanderson if we finally stop getting f***ed in the lottery and take Power.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I can live without Sanderson if we finally stop getting f***ed in the lottery and take Power.

We'll probably get f***ed in the lottery again, but at least Hughes or Edvinsson will be right around where we're picking in 2021. It won't be all bad.

 

[GettingYourMoms]

This guy is NUTS. Best D of 2019 draft by mile!

 

[Raymand]

Is anyone bold enough to predict Seider's offensive upside? Many have danced around it, and some have said it doesn't matter how many points he puts up because he's going to be a #1 dman who can play 25+ minutes a night and he will make life miserable for the opposition. All of that is absolutely true, and quite frankly obvious. What is hard to gauge is his offensive upside. It is clear from his production in every league he has played in that he has offensive skills. The question is, how many points can he put up in the NHL? Will he be on the power play for Detroit, or is that role locked up by Hronek?

Even if he doesn't put up decent offensive numbers, he will be a valuable player for Detroit, but is anyone bold enough to actually give a prediction? I haven't watched him enough to give a prediction myself. I saw him play a bit at the Juniors, but that's it other than highlights. I'm curious to hear from those who have watched him play numerous times, and in particular Detroit fans who know the make up of their team and know what offensive role, if any, he can play on the team.

I'll be bold. I think his ceiling in the NHL is somewhere between 50-65 points a year. Mind you, that's a ceiling, and I think it will take him a few years to reach it, but I'm also pretty confident that he will.

The thing that's so crazy - that will make me sound like a broken record - is his instincts. Everyone praises his defensive instincts and rightfully so, but I think that the offensive ones are just as good. And I know people will read that and go "what do you mean?! He's always playing it safe how can you even say that?" but... that's what I mean. When you watch him with the puck in the offensive zone its like... how do I say this? It's almost like he's too "humble" with the puck on his stick, if that makes sense. I've said this before, but Seids approaches the game like a soccer player - in the sense that he's going to make the play that maintains possession 100% of the time. But it's clear to see from watching him that he could force more offense if he wanted to. Right now, it just seems like he won't because he believes hasn't earned the pedigree to make plays that a 30+-year-old veteran #1D would feel comfortable making. He's gotten it hard wired into his system to make the "responsible" plays, which is honestly a blessing in disguise from a development standpoint. He doesn't want to "hog" touches away from his much more experienced linemates, even if he has more talent than any of them. Right now he's an information sponge, especially on offense; every shift he's out there he's taking in the flow of the game, learning how to take control of it - but he's doing it one step at a time. Making sure he can be dominant with his fundamentals before looking to expand his arsenal into more higher-end stuff. The longer he plays and the more freedom he gets (more importantly, the more freedom he allows himself) over time the more he's gonna develop that swagger where he can make those riskier plays because he knows "f*** it, I'm good enough to do it".

I know I'm obviously biased as a Red Wings fan and that this is only borderline "analysis" with a very healthy dose of speculation, but I see Moritz as a guy who will get into the league and make an impact, and then continue to get better every year. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he followed a similar path to Roman Josi; someone who flies under the radar for the first half of his career because only fans of his team see how much better he gets each season. And yes, I know I just compared him to a Norris winner; that's my point.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

Just going to put up some benchmarks for reference

In the last full season ('18/19):

65 points would've put Moritz Seider as the 5th highest scoring defenseman in the league.

50 points would have had Seider tied with Trouba as the 13th highest scoring defenseman.

35 points would have him around the ~40th mark alongside guys like Sanheim, Montour, and Faulk.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I'll be bold. I think his ceiling in the NHL is somewhere between 50-65 points a year. Mind you, that's a ceiling, and I think it will take him a few years to reach it, but I'm also pretty confident that he will.

The thing that's so crazy - that will make me sound like a broken record - is his instincts. Everyone praises his defensive instincts and rightfully so, but I think that the offensive ones are just as good. And I know people will read that and go "what do you mean?! He's always playing it safe how can you even say that?" but... that's what I mean. When you watch him with the puck in the offensive zone its like... how do I say this? It's almost like he's too "humble" with the puck on his stick, if that makes sense. I've said this before, but Seids approaches the game like a soccer player - in the sense that he's going to make the play that maintains possession 100% of the time. But it's clear to see from watching him that he could force more offense if he wanted to. Right now, it just seems like he won't because he believes hasn't earned the pedigree to make plays that a 30+-year-old veteran #1D would feel comfortable making. He's gotten it hard wired into his system to make the "responsible" plays, which is honestly a blessing in disguise from a development standpoint. He doesn't want to "hog" touches away from his much more experienced linemates, even if he has more talent than any of them. Right now he's an information sponge, especially on offense; every shift he's out there he's taking in the flow of the game, learning how to take control of it - but he's doing it one step at a time. Making sure he can be dominant with his fundamentals before looking to expand his arsenal into more higher-end stuff. The longer he plays and the more freedom he gets (more importantly, the more freedom he allows himself) over time the more he's gonna develop that swagger where he can make those riskier plays because he knows "f*** it, I'm good enough to do it".

I know I'm obviously biased as a Red Wings fan and that this is only borderline "analysis" with a very healthy dose of speculation, but I see Moritz as a guy who will get into the league and make an impact, and then continue to get better every year. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he followed a similar path to Roman Josi; someone who flies under the radar because only fans of his team see how much better he gets each season. And yes, I know I just compared him to a Norris winner; that's my point.

Most Wings fans understand that a defenseman doesn't have to be as dynamic with the puck as Erik Karlsson to generate offense. Nick Lidstrom led a defensive group that was able to hold onto the puck longer than anyone else to allow sustained zone control. Duncan Keith did this for Chicago for 3 championships as well. Stopping the opponent's possession then tilting the ice for a sustained counter attack is why they were so great.

I can see Seider generating offense in much the same way as these guys and he'll get plenty of opportunities just from being on the ice 25 minutes a game. Look at how he's done that in the SHL. He's been downright dominant defensively and his transition game has allowed him to help on the counterattack.