Speculation: Raymond Seider Contract Speculation

[Snuggs]

There's enough money to give both of them 8.5/year. Is that an overpay or underpay for you? They're going to get signed, don't be silly.

What else is there to be right now.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

If you are not a fan of penny pinching, might I suggest becoming a Leafs fan. They don't penny pinch anyone and have plenty of stars on the team. You also have the added advantage of losing in the first round every year and then declaring next to be "the year"

Who exactly has "penny pinching" alone and absolutely no other factor whatsoever been successful for?

Reason I say it like that is because too many fans here completely disregard the litany of more important factors influencing franchise/team success

The TML haven't lost because they overpaid their "stats," they lose because those stars haven't been good enough when it mattered, and they have completely failed at drafting and developing anybody outside the big 3 in over a decade

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

No, I don't.


What I mean by that is Yzerman is being "tight", penny pinching it seems when he's got enough to pay both, but willing to pay out for Kane easily.

I agree with you. I can't think of a reason Seider specifically is not signed 8.5x8 right now. Unless he's the one pushing for a bridge deal.

Probably because an 8 year contract is way more influential on the future of the team than a 1 year...

... And I assume if Seider would sign for 8 x $8.5M it'd have been done by now.

Who exactly has "penny pinching" alone and absolutely no other factor whatsoever been successful for?

Reason I say it like that is because too many fans here completely disregard the litany of more important factors influencing franchise/team success

The TML haven't lost because they overpaid their "stats," they lose because those stars haven't been good enough when it mattered, and they have completely failed at drafting and developing anybody outside the big 3 in over a decade

Toronto loses repeatedly because they overpaid their stars and can't afford any depth.

When you can throw everything at their stars and then dominate their secondary players, it makes things rather easy. They're a Top 5 core with bottom 10 depth.

 

[Snuggs]

Probably because an 8 year contract is way more influential on the future of the team than a 1 year...

... And I assume if Seider would sign for 8 x $8.5M it'd have been done by now.



Toronto loses repeatedly because they overpaid their stars and can't afford any depth.

When you can throw everything at their stars and then dominate their secondary players, it makes things rather easy. They're a Top 5 core with bottom 10 depth.

Catch 22. I'm going to say the same thing back at you and see if you compered why I value the 8 years over this 1 shitty year.

* We'll see what he signs for 8.5-9 seems ripe. Schwabing over 500k for a franchise Dman seems odd. Hopefully that's not what's happening. I could use some good news any day with these guys!

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Catch 22. I'm going to say the same thing back at you and see if you compered why I value the 8 years over this 1 shitty year.

* We'll see what he signs for 8.5-9 seems ripe. Schwabing over 500k for a franchise Dman seems odd. Hopefully that's not what's happening. I could use some good news any day with these guys!

Because overpaying two guys on 8 year contracts is a recipe for disaster...

If Seider would sign for 8 x $9M I'd sign that yesterday, and I assume Yzerman would too. It also may simply be a case of not gaining a reputation as the GM that will just immediately say yes to your high profile player's demands. Do that with Seider and word gets to Raymond, and then Edvinsson, and then Danielson.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

No, I don't.


What I mean by that is Yzerman is being "tight", penny pinching it seems when he's got enough to pay both, but willing to pay out for Kane easily.

I agree with you. I can't think of a reason Seider specifically is not signed 8.5x8 right now. Unless he's the one pushing for a bridge deal.

He's being tight because it's an 8 year deal and it's what he does for long term deals. Particularly long term deals that buy out UFA years while covering RFA years.

That's how you don't get into salary trouble.

He penny-pinches on Kane, Kane walks out the door and the Wings have to spend on someone else who would probably cost more to bring exactly what Kane brings.

He "penny-pinches" on Raymond and Seider and quite literally all it costs is guys like Snuggs being a little less comfortable in the month of August.

Raymond and Seider are under team control for several more years and unless some other team wants to blow up their cap structure and trade guys for pennies on the dollar to make room. Currently there are six teams who can offer an 8.5M AAV without making a move (Wings and 5 others) and their rosters are loaded up. There is little risk of an offer sheet and nary a peep about Raymond or Seider's agents being annoyed with the process. They're at the "it's business" part of the deal where their agent and Yzerman quibble for the last slice of pizza.

The Wings aren't going to be demonstrably better or worse off if they sign the contract today, tomorrow, or three weeks from now.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Catch 22. I'm going to say the same thing back at you and see if you compered why I value the 8 years over this 1 shitty year.

* We'll see what he signs for 8.5-9 seems ripe. Schwabing over 500k for a franchise Dman seems odd. Hopefully that's not what's happening. I could use some good news any day with these guys!

Yeah, I value the 8 years over the one year. That's why I understand quibbling over 500k-1M for 8 years over doing it for one. Kane at 5.5 or Kane at 6? I don't care.

Unless or until Raymond or Seider miss training camp or games... my danger level of the contracts being signed is zero. Raymond and Seider's expected contracts are too easy for the Wings to match on anything except an absolutely ludicrous offer sheet (I'm talking 13M+) which 5 teams could even offer without making a corresponding move. I'm sure Yzerman sees that too.

They're not Broberg and Holloway who Edmonton was gonna try sneaking through for 1-2M a pop who got sniped by the Blues at double that.

 

[Redwing66]

If you are not a fan of penny pinching, might I suggest becoming a Leafs fan. They don't penny pinch anyone and have plenty of stars on the team. You also have the added advantage of losing in the first round every year and then declaring next to be "the year"

Quite the conundrum- if only there was middle ground.

 

[Euro Twins]

Quite the conundrum- if only there was middle ground.

There is no middle ground.

Maybe Vegas. But I sure as shit don't want the wings run like vegas

Yeah, I value the 8 years over the one year. That's why I understand quibbling over 500k-1M for 8 years over doing it for one. Kane at 5.5 or Kane at 6? I don't care.

Unless or until Raymond or Seider miss training camp or games... my danger level of the contracts being signed is zero. Raymond and Seider's expected contracts are too easy for the Wings to match on anything except an absolutely ludicrous offer sheet (I'm talking 13M+) which 5 teams could even offer without making a corresponding move. I'm sure Yzerman sees that too.

They're not Broberg and Holloway who Edmonton was gonna try sneaking through for 1-2M a pop who got sniped by the Blues at double that.

The blues way overpaying for average bottom of the lineup players is hilarious like they pulled one over on Edmonton

 

[Euro Twins]

Who exactly has "penny pinching" alone and absolutely no other factor whatsoever been successful for?

Reason I say it like that is because too many fans here completely disregard the litany of more important factors influencing franchise/team success

The TML haven't lost because they overpaid their "stats," they lose because those stars haven't been good enough when it mattered, and they have completely failed at drafting and developing anybody outside the big 3 in over a decade

Tampa for one. Colorado. Colorado has been garbage since they gave Mack that massive deal. Blues won with a low cost roster, in fact it's less likely to win with massive contracts. Toronto loses cause they have garbage depth and no goaltending, let alone grit because they pay 4 guys nearly half their cap.

 

[Ezekial]

The TML haven't lost because they overpaid their "stats," they lose because those stars haven't been good enough when it mattered, and they have completely failed at drafting and developing anybody outside the big 3 in over a decade

When your stars players "haven't been good enough when it matters" and you have absolutely no depth behind them then the reason you aren't successful is because you've paid your stars too much and don't have anyone to pick up the slack. Not sure what your point is.

 

[Oddbob]

There is always a worse case scenario where the team can’t sign the player and negotiations come to an impasse, players and fans come to question the players value and what the return would be in trade. Dylan, Mo and Ray are building blocks and cornerstones of the team. Losing any of them would set the team rebuild back years. Yzerman took the Larkin negotiations to that point where we questioned Larkins value. Just not a fan of the penny pinching, questioned values on top tiered talent. Who wants to go through that? Mo and Ray watched the Larkin nonsense and are acting accordingly in their negotiations.

It didn't make me question Dylan's value at all. That is silly to suggest negotiating normally as some sort of "treatment". If Steve signed any of the 3 on July 1st the year before, many would question him for not waiting until January-March.

 

[Oddbob]

Who exactly has "penny pinching" alone and absolutely no other factor whatsoever been successful for?

Reason I say it like that is because too many fans here completely disregard the litany of more important factors influencing franchise/team success

The TML haven't lost because they overpaid their "stats," they lose because those stars haven't been good enough when it mattered, and they have completely failed at drafting and developing anybody outside the big 3 in over a decade

Overspending has indeed hurt them. It means less higher end depth players for the lower lines which can be a significant loss when injuries start adding up.

 

[Redwing66]

It didn't make me question Dylan's value at all. That is silly to suggest negotiating normally as some sort of "treatment". If Steve signed any of the 3 on July 1st the year before, many would question him for not waiting until January-March.

Plenty of people at the time were wondering where negotiations were with Larkin and questioning the 1C and value - you might not have but plenty did. The routine gets tiresome, we are well past March.

 

[Oddbob]

Plenty of people at the time were wondering where negotiations were with Larkin and questioning the 1C and value - you might not have but plenty did. The routine gets tiresome, we are well past March.

What does it matter if some fans question 1C, value or not? It affects his real world NHL value in no way. If half the fans thought he was Gretzky, and the other half of the fans thought he was worse than a random senior league rec player, it would change his status in Detroit and the NHL in no way at all. His value is determined by NHL GMs and management, not fan opinion.

 

[Henkka]

When your stars players "haven't been good enough when it matters" and you have absolutely no depth behind them then the reason you aren't successful is because you've paid your stars too much and don't have anyone to pick up the slack. Not sure what your point is.

I mostly think the "most important money" Leafs are missing thanks to overpaying for offence, is missing from defence. Like if they would have cap space, investing 10M for a guy like Pietrangelo when he was UFA, would have totally changed the team structure for what it should be.

Morgan Rielly is a nice offensive defenceman, but very bad defensively. He should be their 2nd guy, not a top guy. It has been just a defence full of plugs after him. Maybe worse than Wings current defence.

But Leafs rebuild already went on wrong direction, because they ignored the defence. Bad defence = more scoring = top high caphits for forwards.

Lower-scoring hockey would have controlled the caphits better. Thank god Yzerman understood this way and has started the rebuild from defence+goaltending & defensive minded top skill forwards.

That team structure controls the cap, and also wins at the playoffs.

 

[theYman]

What in the world is Yzerman waiting for? I thought by mid August he'd have signed both of these guys by now.

 

[Pizza!Pizza!]

What in the world is Yzerman waiting for? I thought by mid August he'd have signed both of these guys by now.

Copp extension has priority

 

[GreatGordie9]

What in the world is Yzerman waiting for? I thought by mid August he'd have signed both of these guys by now.

I expect Raymond and Seider once they arrive in Detroit prior to camp will sign on the dotted line.

 

[Frk It]

No, I don't.


What I mean by that is Yzerman is being "tight", penny pinching it seems when he's got enough to pay both, but willing to pay out for Kane easily.

I agree with you. I can't think of a reason Seider specifically is not signed 8.5x8 right now. Unless he's the one pushing for a bridge deal.

They are RFA's... we have all the leverage... you should be as stingy as possible.

 

[SirloinUB]

I have worried about these contracts for exactly zero seconds this summer. They'll get done in time. There is literally no need to rush.

 

[FMichael]

They are RFA's... we have all the leverage... you should be as stingy as possible.

Well - not sure if I'd say go stingy on them, but lets be honest - what else are these 2 gonna do come fall?

Get real jobs like working at the Ford Dearborn plant or drive snow plows during the winter?

They'll get signed in due time...I'm not worried.

 

[Redwing66]

What does it matter if some fans question 1C, value or not? It affects his real world NHL value in no way. If half the fans thought he was Gretzky, and the other half of the fans thought he was worse than a random senior league rec player, it would change his status in Detroit and the NHL in no way at all. His value is determined by NHL GMs and management, not fan opinion.

Fans have no affect - that's an odd thing to say...

 

[Gniwder]

Fans have no affect - that's an odd thing to say...

Fans have an impact through arena attendance and TV ratings (team revenue), but what Oddbob was saying is that the numbers posted here have no impact. You could say DBoss is worth $4M, and I could say he's worth $10M, but in the end Stevie isn't reading any posts here.

Generally speaking, most companies have someone (marketing, sale, and/or media relations) that cruises around reading social media, but the online presence of HFBoards is so small (especially for the Wings), that anything posted here isn't gonna reach the front office.

When I worked for the Big 3, I never read online forums for the vehicle platforms that I worked on. The internet experts who think they can fix design issues have no clue what they're talking about. Same applies to hockey, myself included.

 

[JohanFranzenstein]

Fans have an impact through arena attendance and TV ratings (team revenue), but what Oddbob was saying is that the numbers posted here have no impact. You could say DBoss is worth $4M, and I could say he's worth $10M, but in the end Stevie isn't reading any posts here.

Generally speaking, most companies have someone (marketing, sale, and/or media relations) that cruises around reading social media, but the online presence of HFBoards is so small (especially for the Wings), that anything posted here isn't gonna reach the front office.

When I worked for the Big 3, I never read online forums for the vehicle platforms that I worked on. The internet experts who think they can fix design issues have no clue what they're talking about. Same applies to hockey, myself included.

Starting a petition to make this a sticky post on every board on this God forsaken website.