Speculation: Raymond Seider Contract Speculation

[Henkka]

Well yeah, okay. I had said as much in my other post too. Sorry for missing the boat.

Yeah, I agree, there is nothing gained/lost by them not having pen on paper just yet.

We have to just wait until C.Lemieux would come out of his turtle position. He is still there, hiding inside.

It could take time, maybe a month.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

This is getting ridiculous. We’re a few weeks away from camp and they’re still at an impass?

 

[Indrid Cold]

This is getting ridiculous. We’re a few weeks away from camp and they’re still at an impass?

Agreed. I like Steve's contract negotiating skills for sure, but at what point does it come back to bite him.

 

[Ulysses31]

wonder if we will see a nylaander situation

 

[JohanFranzenstein]

I don't know guys. I think we should start preparing for a future without Mo and Ray.

Deals will get done , have faith.

 

[saska sault]

wonder if we will see a nylaander situation

Not with Yzerman... he also didn't set himself up like Dubas did to get bent over the barrel.

 

[Henkka]

"Stevie is not gonna overpay. Take a fair deal for your kid."

 

[Redwing66]

There are times to be a hard-ass during negotiations, trouble is when that's your only routine you can lose talent quickly both with these kids and with FA. I didn't appreciate the Larkin treatment and expected this with Mo, Ray and Berg. Instead of a celebration of talent and rewarding them it becomes a tooth pull...

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Not with Yzerman... he also didn't set himself up like Dubas did to get bent over the barrel.

Dubas didn't mess up by overpaying early for superstars, thats a misconception...

He messed up by failing to continue drafting and developing well enough to keep the pipeline full of cheap/depth young talent...

If SY had a Mathews/Marner, he would 100% guarantee pay them the same, let's not fool ourselves

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Dubas didn't mess up by overpaying early for superstars, thats a misconception...

He messed up by failing to continue drafting and developing well enough to keep the pipeline full of cheap/depth young talent...

If SY had a Mathews/Marner, he would 100% guarantee pay them the same, let's not fool ourselves

Dubas f***ed up by dragging Nylander out until the 11th hour only to overpay him compared to his peers. Pretty sure that was the reference being made...

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Dubas f***ed up by dragging Nylander out until the 11th hour only to overpay him compared to his peers. Pretty sure that was the reference being made...

Ah ok

I thought it was partially about the big contracts to marner and mathews at young age thing again

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Ah ok

I thought it was partially about the big contracts to marner and mathews at young age thing again

I mean, those likely stemmed from the Nylander deal.

GM just got worked over by Nylander and his agent, made it pretty obvious he'd get worked over for Marner and Matthews. And those were bad deals considering the money they got for the term they signed.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I mean, those likely stemmed from the Nylander deal.

GM just got worked over by Nylander and his agent, made it pretty obvious he'd get worked over for Marner and Matthews. And those were bad deals considering the money they got for the term they signed.

Sure...I'm just saying 100% SY if he had those x2, MandM, would sign them to those deals...superstars get paid(or dealt I suppose)

 

[LongTimeDRWF]

Hey all, training camp opens September 20. I suspect all parties concerned (Mo, Ray, JB and their agents along with SY) are waiting for the players to arrive to North America to sign PR contracts, everyone has publicly stated they expect it will get done.

In private, they likely have already signed (or agreed to an MOU) to ensure they have team player insurances in place post July 1 unless they buy their won. (Travel, working out etc.)

I will start to worry if training camp starts and none of them are there....if they start trickling in before September 20 and are using the wings facilities to work out, I am pretty sure they would have to be legally signed to be covered by team player insurance.

On an unrelated note, I am interested in how many of the Swedes trained with Raymond this past summer, be sweet if Ed and Burger both showed up with 10-15 more muscle.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Sure...I'm just saying 100% SY if he had those x2, MandM, would sign them to those deals...superstars get paid(or dealt I suppose)

I don't think Yzerman would've put himself in the situation with Nylander to have Marner and Matthews walking all over him like they did Dubas.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Ah ok

I thought it was partially about the big contracts to marner and mathews at young age thing again

It was more that Mathews and Maner both got a higher AAV and fewer years.

Like even McDavid got 8x12.5... The issue was that Mathews got 5 years at an elevated AAV. Marner 6 years at an elevated AAV. Generally speaking with RFA deals, you're either signing away more years of UFA control and getting compensated a bit for that... OR you're taking a smaller AAV to walk yourself right up to UFA.

Mathews basically signed a deal that takes him right to UFA and pays him like it bought a few of those UFA years.

Marner was even worse because it came on the heels of the Mathews deal and showed how weak Dubas was.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Sure...I'm just saying 100% SY if he had those x2, MandM, would sign them to those deals...superstars get paid(or dealt I suppose)

They would have been paid... but Yzerman wouldn't have rolled over for them. They would have gotten the AAV and given up an 8 year deal. OR he would have let them hold out and feel a teensy bit of the pinch of missing out on big money.

Dubas was scared shitless they were gonna walk, so he capitulated. Yzerman clearly with Stammer, Hedman, and Kucherov has shown that he's perfectly willing to let someone walk and check their options. It also comes with treating them with respect at all times. If you say "I'm not going to stop you from looking, but I think you should sign with me", that's a powerful thing.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

They would have been paid... but Yzerman wouldn't have rolled over for them. They would have gotten the AAV and given up an 8 year deal. OR he would have let them hold out and feel a teensy bit of the pinch of missing out on big money.

Dubas was scared shitless they were gonna walk, so he capitulated. Yzerman clearly with Stammer, Hedman, and Kucherov has shown that he's perfectly willing to let someone walk and check their options. It also comes with treating them with respect at all times. If you say "I'm not going to stop you from looking, but I think you should sign with me", that's a powerful thing.

To be fair the situation of Dubas in Toronto vs SY in Tampa are not really the same.. I'd liken Detroit closer to Torontos situation and climate (not just weather) than Tampa..

I am by no means saying SY is gonna get screwed over.. just that if he were Torontos GM he would have agreed to those very same deals or incredibly simmilar..

 

[HisNoodliness]

Dubas didn't mess up by overpaying early for superstars, thats a misconception...

He messed up by failing to continue drafting and developing well enough to keep the pipeline full of cheap/depth young talent...

If SY had a Mathews/Marner, he would 100% guarantee pay them the same, let's not fool ourselves

I actually disagree and think that Dubas straight up did overpay and Yzerman wouldn't have signed those deals. Look at how he treated Stamkos in Tampa. He let Stammer become a UFA in the middle of his prime because he wanted to get Stamkos on a discount. He got Stamkos on that discount and it established a ceiling driving every deal down from then on. The players there all talked about how Yzerman wanted them at a discount and drove a hard bargain to get it.

Dubas screwed himself with the Tavares deal and that's what killed the team. Instead of establishing a ceiling to drive the other deals down, he established a floor driving them up. Matthews and Marner got not only UFA AAV as RFAs, they got short deals that walked them to UFA as well.

I think that one of the most important elements to making our team a competitor is getting both Seider and Raymond on 8 year deals at less than or equal to Larkin's AAV. I really think that Yzerman agrees too.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I actually disagree and think that Dubas straight up did overpay and Yzerman wouldn't have signed those deals. Look at how he treated Stamkos in Tampa. He let Stammer become a UFA in the middle of his prime because he wanted to get Stamkos on a discount. He got Stamkos on that discount and it established a ceiling driving every deal down from then on. The players there all talked about how Yzerman wanted them at a discount and drove a hard bargain to get it.

Dubas screwed himself with the Tavares deal and that's what killed the team. Instead of establishing a ceiling to drive the other deals down, he established a floor driving them up. Matthews and Marner got not only UFA AAV as RFAs, they got short deals that walked them to UFA as well.

I think that one of the most important elements to making our team a competitor is getting both Seider and Raymond on 8 year deals at less than or equal to Larkin's AAV. I really think that Yzerman agrees too.

Look I don't disagree with this but I think the situation of a GM in Toronto Ontario vs Tampa Florida pose some unique challenges...

The Tavares deal was awful 100%...too much term and salary for a UFA, even if he was one of the best UFAs to actually hit free agency AND move that we've seen in twenty years...(context, should Draisaitl hit free agency in 2025, he will sign for no less than 7/8 x 12m)...

As far as Marner and Mathews I think every GM would have given exact same if not simmilar deals had they been in same situation...in the end star players get paid...the negotiation is over hundreds of thousands only...

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Look I don't disagree with this but I think the situation of a GM in Toronto Ontario vs Tampa Florida pose some unique challenges...

The Tavares deal was awful 100%...too much term and salary for a UFA, even if he was one of the best UFAs to actually hit free agency AND move that we've seen in twenty years...(context, should Draisaitl hit free agency in 2025, he will sign for no less than 7/8 x 12m)...

As far as Marner and Mathews I think every GM would have given exact same if not simmilar deals had they been in same situation...in the end star players get paid...the negotiation is over hundreds of thousands only...

They wouldn't have though.

Dubas gave both 8 digit salaries AND walked them to UFA.

When Connor McDavid gives 8 years at like 750k more AAV than Matthews and Matthews only gives 5, there is something wrong with that negotiation.

 

[19 for president]

I am not overly concerned here. I believe its either they are waiting to announce once they are back in Detroit or Stevie is trying to see if he can still address the defense and might need to go for shorter deals if he needs the cap space.

I wouldn't be surprised to see both or one of these guys named as an assistant captain so I could also see them waiting to sign a deal until they can do a live press conference for that too.

If it was a really nasty negotiation there would be rumors out there by now and there are none. Stevie is in no rush.

 

[HisNoodliness]

Look I don't disagree with this but I think the situation of a GM in Toronto Ontario vs Tampa Florida pose some unique challenges...

The Tavares deal was awful 100%...too much term and salary for a UFA, even if he was one of the best UFAs to actually hit free agency AND move that we've seen in twenty years...(context, should Draisaitl hit free agency in 2025, he will sign for no less than 7/8 x 12m)...

As far as Marner and Mathews I think every GM would have given exact same if not simmilar deals had they been in same situation...in the end star players get paid...the negotiation is over hundreds of thousands only...

I can buy the location argument if we're comparing Tampa and Columbus, New York and Utah, Carolina and LA, but I don't buy it with Toronto. Original 6 franchise, near the families of a third of the league, great restaurants, night life etc. It's not the same as living in Tampa, but as someone who has done both, I'd choose Toronto without a second thought and I'm confident that a lot of NHL players would too. The crazy media and fan pressure is probably the biggest drawback to being an NHL player here.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

They wouldn't have though.

Dubas gave both 8 digit salaries AND walked them to UFA.

When Connor McDavid gives 8 years at like 750k more AAV than Matthews and Matthews only gives 5, there is something wrong with that negotiation.

Maybe...or perhaps it's the player(s) themselves?...

Look, I'm game for blaming Dubas for his failure to draft and develop anyone outside the big 3...like at all...but I fully understand why in that market and at that point why he signed those x2 too what he did

 

[ricky0034]

I don't know guys. I think we should start preparing for a future without Mo and Ray.

Deals will get done , have faith.

not to alarm anyone but even if the Wings manage to get them both signed to lifetime contracts they're both currently dying as we speak

....hopefully very slowly over the course of many decades but still