Ray Shero Hired By Lamorello To Replace Himself As GM

[Jag68Sid87]

People need to stop acting like She to didn't do a great job here for his first 5 or so years. So what if he inherited the core? He built around it well enough to make the Cup finals two years in a row and win once. That's not easy. Having a few great talents isn't enough. Honestly if you think he just lucked into his success, you don't know what you're talking about. Losing the plot in his last couple years doesn't change what he accomplished.

Also, the organization internally was an actual ****ing backwards disaster when he took over. The stuff he did to improve things behind the scenes can't be dismissed.

General Managers should have a longer shelf life than how quickly Shero went from strong manager to complete duffus.

He was WAY too shortsighted. GM's should last...several coaches, a rebuild, maybe even two. They adjust to organizational needs and they build around their best talent.

Shero did NONE of that. And, it's been widely reported that arguably his best deal ever was actually made by Mario (Hossa-Dupuis for Armstrong-Christensen-Esposito-Leveille). Remember how Pierre McGuire HATED the Hossa deal for Pittsburgh? Well, McGuire was Shero's mouth piece during his time as GM, so it's safe to say Shero wanted no part of the Hossa deal.

I give Shero a lot of credit for the Roberts deal, the Laraque deal, the Iginla deal, the Kunitz deal as well. The Neal/Niskanen for Goligoski trade was also terrific.

But winning trades is only a part of what makes a GM successful. You also need to have a great plan. Vision. Shero didn't. Not with us.

 

[Gurglesons]

But winning trades is only a part of what makes a GM successful. You also need to have a great plan. Vision. Shero didn't. Not with us.

He was fired after he built one of the best rosters in the last five years.

He pretty much built our entire d-core going into the future. The only defenseman he ever traded was Morrow who the organization obviously lost faith in. Rutherford traded Despres.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So what happened? Did orders come from on high to suddenly change the plans and revert to signing over the hill vets to excessive deals, trade important, valuable pieces of aging vets, and to take the easy (and idiotic) route of looking for home runs in guys like Comrie, Pyatt, Kobasew, Cal O'Reilly, etc.?

Regardless of what you think of his last couple years, there's no denying his contribution to our becoming a contender and eventual Cup winner.

The deals he made for Dupes, Kunitz, and Scuds made us too old. Dupes' injuries made his contract look much worse than it was though, and up to this season Kunitz had been worth his deal.

The other also-rans you mentioned are what happens when you're pressed against the cap and are looking for the odd low-risk, high-reward guy. A la Klink and Arcobello this year.

C'mon dude. Shero tinkered with Patrick's foundation. Any number of us could have done the same thing and had success. Shero didn't build the powerhouse you're suggesting. We won on the backs of Sid, Geno, Staal and Fleury.

Patrick's latter-day foundation involved sucking enough to get multiple lotto picks and filling in the blanks with soft wannabes.

To whom? The only people who didn't think the Pens would be able to keep everyone around were a bunch of outsiders who let their desires seep into their articles. Plenty of teams have kept their core of several star players around as well as surrounded them with legitimate talent. Anaheim, Chicago, LA, Washington, Tampa Bay, etc.

Again, that wasn't when the cap was much lower and they had to sign two players making 8.7 mil per on their 2nd contracts.

You're a smart dude, and I respect the Hell out of you as a poster, so I know deep down you realize that JR & the 53 idiots (whom are all of Shero's cronies) didn't have the time to decimate the team to the point it's at now. This, what we're all seeing, is a remnant of the Shero/Bylsma era. This team reeks of it. You know that, no matter how badly you don't want to turn the cheek.

This team is worse than it was a year ago.

What we're seeing could not have been done in the course of one calendar year with the moves the current bunch of idiots in our front office have mad. Kunitz? Shero. Scuderi? Shero. Lack of wingers? Oh, Shero only had 8 years to fix that issue. A disastrously poor prospect pool? Shero.

You don't have to keep playing Kunitz or Scuderi, and you sure as hell don't have to trade the only player who made Scuderi look capable.

Whether or not you're willing to admit it is a moot point. Shero is far more responsible for the dumpster fire we all get the privilege of rooting for than anyone involved with this team now.

JR took a team that viewed a 2nd round 7 game loss as a disappointment and turned it into a team that's content to fall ass-backwards into the playoffs and bow out in 5.

That's not an improvement.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

He was fired after he built one of the best rosters in the last five years.

He pretty much built our entire d-core going into the future. The only defenseman he ever traded was Morrow who the organization obviously lost faith in. Rutherford traded Despres.

OK, but Rutherford is irrelevant to the Shero discussion. People like Shero vis-a-vis Rutherford just like those who like Johnston vis-a-vis Bylsma.

The bottom line is, we are where we are because of the jobs all FOUR of these men have done. All four are to blame (at least in part) for the mess we're currently in.

For my money here are the biggest faults/flaws of each:

Shero - Bylsma lasted too long; Scuderi, Kunitz, Dupuis contracts
Rutherford - Despres; 1 draft pick in first four rounds of '15
Bylsma - Iginla situation ridiculous; clueless in adjustments
Johnston - we can't score anymore

 

[Rico Fatastic]

But the Devils DID hire Shero, and we're not getting compensated. So I don't understand your statement here.

The idea is that they probably wouldn't have hired him if we had insisted on draft pick compensation. A team has to grant permission before another team can interview a staff member currently under contract. I doubt it makes a difference if he's been fired or not; he's still under contract. And I'm sure when Lamoriello called to get permission to interview Shero, he asked if any draft pick compensation would be required. It would be pretty foolish not to have determined that ahead of time.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The only problem is that Shero & Co. completely disregarded the bulk of what makes up a hockey team. Yeah, I'd agree there. That's a problem alright.

He did fail to make good on his BPA philosophy of drafting for talent and then flipping it for need.

His biggest mistakes involved Pouliot. We should have drafted Forsberg, as everyone here was praying for (either he or Grigs), and when he had the opportunity later, he should have dealt Pouliot in that package for Kesler.

 

[Gurglesons]

JR took a team that viewed a 2nd round 7 game loss as a disappointment and turned it into a team that's content to fall ass-backwards into the playoffs and bow out in 5.

That's not an improvement.

Not mention he traded Winnik for a 2nd and a 4th. At least last year we just traded 3rd rounders for pieces to hopefully build up our completely terrible bottom six.

The Pens also finished 1st in their division so making those trades had some precedent.

Everyone in the world could tell that rentals like Winnik and Lovejoy weren't going to help this team.

 

[Captain Hook]

Shero was awful for us toward the end. He handed out long-term deals with NTC's to declining players like they were free candy. I think he always had questionable philosophies as well when you think about drafting so many D when you have Sid and Geno to build around.

Not to mention his track record of drafting forwards has to be the worst in the NHL. Only one NHL forward he's drafted has hit 20 total goals in the NHL and that was Staal and he didn't even get that draft pick right since he could have had Toews, Kessel or Backstrom.

Shero was a good trader outside of the Morrow for Morrow and Douglas Murray debacles. He traded too many draft picks but I felt confident he could maximize the return on most of our assets. He did seem like a good dude too. I wish him well. Maybe he'll learn from his days here and be a better GM in New Jersey.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

The idea is that they probably wouldn't have hired him if we had insisted on draft pick compensation. A team has to grant permission before another team can interview a staff member currently under contract. I doubt it makes a difference if he's been fired or not; he's still under contract. And I'm sure when Lamoriello called to get permission to interview Shero, he asked if any draft pick compensation would be required. It would be pretty foolish not to have determined that ahead of time.

Gotcha. And I agree with you.

Hopefully, this nice gesture on our part will lead to some deals between the two teams. Shero dealt with Philly when he was with us, so I don't see why he wouldn't deal with us.

Not mention he traded Winnik for a 2nd and a 4th. At least last year we just traded 3rd rounders for pieces to hopefully build up our completely terrible bottom six.

The Pens also finished 1st in their division so making those trades had some precedent.

Everyone in the world could tell that rentals like Winnik and Lovejoy weren't going to help this team.

NOBODY liked the Despres deal, you're right about that one. However, there were a LOT of people on this board who were all for the Winnik deal. And I do mean a LOT. I thought the compensation for a very average third liner was borderline ridiculous, but many people liked that deal (and like Winnik, and want him back).

So I don't completely agree with you there.

 

[mpp9]

He did fail to make good on his BPA philosophy of drafting for talent and then flipping it for need.

It was a flawed philosophy from the beginning with DB here. You can't flip young players for need if you don't freaking play them. They can't build their value and you can't make veteran players expendable.

And that's not taking into account how long it takes young D-men to become reliable top 4 D. It's not exactly a position most head coaches want to go into the playoffs with any type of uncertainty.

I'm bothered by him mostly b/c he didn't priortize Sid/Geno any more than he did the rest of the team. And that's just dumb. He was gifted the two best players on the planet.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

It was a flawed philosophy from the beginning with DB here. You can't flip young players for need if you don't freaking play them. They can't build their value and you can't make veteran players expendable.

And that's not taking into account how long it takes young D-men to become reliable top 4 D. It's not exactly a position most head coaches want to go into the playoffs with any type of uncertainty.

I'm bothered by him mostly b/c he didn't priortize Sid/Geno any more than he did the rest of the team. And that's just dumb. He was gifted the two best players on the planet.

AND, Rutherford and Johnston are doing the same thing...not prioritizing Sid and Geno for the former; and not (willingly) playing the young guys for the latter.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Regardless of what you think of his last couple years, there's no denying his contribution to our becoming a contender and eventual Cup winner.

The deals he made for Dupes, Kunitz, and Scuds made us too old. Dupes' injuries made his contract look much worse than it was though, and up to this season Kunitz had been worth his deal.

The other also-rans you mentioned are what happens when you're pressed against the cap and are looking for the odd low-risk, high-reward guy. A la Klink and Arcobello this year.

And we were in that position regarding the cap because of guys like Kunitz (who hasn't been good for a few years, despite his regular season production), Scuderi, and the like.

We settled for Dupuis playing out of position as a top six winger because we didn't have the brains or the balls to do the hard work in finding legitimate wingers for Sid as well as Geno. I love Duper, he's a Hell of a guy, but he never should have been in the top six. Ever. I don't care if he managed to score 20 goals. We needed to not be alright with that. And in the end, that is the motto for the Shero era. "Sid and Geno are so good that they can make due with scraps."

Patrick's latter-day foundation involved sucking enough to get multiple lotto picks and filling in the blanks with soft wannabes.

Yeah. While in the midst of a financial disaster. Shero inherited Sid, Geno, Fleury, and the #2 pick from Patrick. Doesn't matter how we landed the players, we got 'em. JR, for all of his incompetence and inability to pinpoint and eliminate the issues on this team, inherited Kunitz, Scuderi, Adams, and a barren cupboard with regard to prospects.

This team is worse than it was a year ago.

Disagree. I don't care if we make it to the first round or the ECF, if we don't make a Finals appearance, it's all the same to me. Neal and Hornqvist is a wash in terms of production--but Hornqvist is a much more effective player. Spaling makes too much money, but he's miles ahead of Glass. Perron's had a horrendous stretch, but he's going to be a far better player than Jokinen. Outside of Sid, Geno, Hornqvist, and Perron, we're in the same position in terms of garbage throughout our forwards.

Again, if you think JR was able to take some great team that Shero left him and do this amount of damage, I think you're giving him far more credit than he deserves. That would be a Hell of a job to do in one year. Shero left this mess, JR just hasn't done the right things to fix it. Not that any GM in the league could have done what was needed in the span of a calendar year anyway, but JR's an idiot too. I'm not disputing that. He's also surrounded by the same idiots who Shero trained. Big surprise that things aren't much different.

You don't have to keep playing Kunitz or Scuderi, and you sure as hell don't have to trade the only player who made Scuderi look capable.

Preaching to the choir. But this isn't about JR and his imbecilic ways. This is about the monumental pile of **** Shero left on this team's doorstep as he walked away.

JR took a team that viewed a 2nd round 7 game loss as a disappointment and turned it into a team that's content to fall ass-backwards into the playoffs and bow out in 5.

That's not an improvement.

I don't remember ever saying JR & Shero's buddies made a positive influence on this team.

And again, I don't care if we bow out in the first round (to the President's Trophy winners, while missing 3 of our top 6 defense) or if we blow a 3-1 lead to a team in the second round. We didn't make the Finals, which should be the realistic goal of this team every season while Sid, Geno, Letang and Fleury are around. Just because JR is a ******** and horrible at his job doesn't absolve Shero.

 

[Gurglesons]

NOBODY liked the Despres deal, you're right about that one. However, there were a LOT of people on this board who were all for the Winnik deal. And I do mean a LOT. I thought the compensation for a very average third liner was borderline ridiculous, but many people liked that deal (and like Winnik, and want him back).

So I don't completely agree with you there.

At least Shero's deals make sense. Half of the trades made this year just ooze of either complete incompetence or other "rookie" managers getting pushed around by long standing vets.

I love Hornqvist and think he is exactly what this team needed, but James Neal should have returned a much better offer. I see Bobby Ryan as a similar player and he returned a package of Silfverberg, Noesen and a 1st. We essentially got Hornqvist and a player Nashville didn't want to sign because he was asking for too much.

Whenever you bring in a new coach there is always a chance that you miss the playoffs. The Perron deal had nothing protecting our first rounder in case we missed and moving it to next year in a year when we could potentially have McDavid or Eichel.

Our management issues clearly went deeper than Shero as they are still making bad decisions and dare I say even worse ones. I can't wait until I get to see what stupid kind of **** we are going to pull at the draft.

People want to commend JR on his acquisitions well we essentially have the same team as last year only we traded away players like Neal and Despres for Perron and Hornqvist. We ultimately have weakened our one strength in one season and we still don't have a bottom six outside of Sutter and Spaling. Also, JR is saying how we need to play one of the only forward prospects we have in Bennett in the AHL.

 

[Ocoee]

I'm happy for Shero. I wish him well except against the Pens. I was thinking it was an indictment against him that it was taking this long to get a job and Chiarelli got one immediately after being fired but maybe he wanted a year off or was waiting for a specific job. I hope he's learned from his mistakes and does well in NJ

 

[Andre Palot]

What on earth are you talking about?

I was trying to be funny and say you could have Adam Oates as compensation because not one Devils fan wants him around.

Clearly I failed.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

He did fail to make good on his BPA philosophy of drafting for talent and then flipping it for need.

His biggest mistakes involved Pouliot. We should have drafted Forsberg, as everyone here was praying for (either he or Grigs), and when he had the opportunity later, he should have dealt Pouliot in that package for Kesler.

What a dumb philosophy. How about building a team through the draft instead of looking solely at one position and skillset, in one region, and expecting to somehow be able to develop all of those players into valuable assets whom you can trade down the line for areas that are glaring weaknesses?

Sounds good on paper. "Sure, we'll draft half a dozen fantastic PMDs and develop them all to the point of being valuable assets around the league. Then we'll trade the ones we don't want for stud wingers!" Meanwhile, we pass on guys like Forsberg, and Saad in favor of Pouliot and Morrow.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

At least Shero's deals make sense. Half of the trades made this year just ooze of either complete incompetence or other "rookie" managers getting pushed around by long standing vets.

I love Hornqvist and think he is exactly what this team needed, but James Neal should have returned a much better offer. I see Bobby Ryan as a similar player and he returned a package of Silfverberg, Noesen and a 1st. We essentially got Hornqvist and a player Nashville didn't want to sign because he was asking for too much.

Whenever you bring in a new coach there is always a chance that you miss the playoffs. The Perron deal had nothing protecting our first rounder in case we missed and moving it to next year in a year when we could potentially have McDavid or Eichel.

Our management issues clearly went deeper than Shero as they are still making bad decisions and dare I say even worse ones. I can't wait until I get to see what stupid kind of **** we are going to pull at the draft.

People want to commend JR on his acquisitions well we essentially have the same team as last year only we traded away players like Neal and Despres for Perron and Hornqvist. We ultimately have weakened our one strength in one season and we still don't have a bottom six outside of Sutter and Spaling. Also, JR is saying how we need to play one of the only forward prospects we have in Bennett in the AHL.

Well, I agree completely on good 'ol JR. I do NOT agree with you that we were better off with Shero, though.

We're better off with ______ <Door No. 3>.

 

[Gurglesons]

Meanwhile, we pass on guys like Forsberg, and Saad in favor of Pouliot and Morrow.

30 teams passed on Saad.

10 passed on Forsberg and then the team that originally picked him traded him for a rental.

Neither of those are strong arguments.

Not to mention both Pouliot and Morrow played in top four situations this year in the NHL and looked pretty good doing it.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

It was a flawed philosophy from the beginning with DB here. You can't flip young players for need if you don't freaking play them. They can't build their value and you can't make veteran players expendable.

And that's not taking into account how long it takes young D-men to become reliable top 4 D. It's not exactly a position most head coaches want to go into the playoffs with any type of uncertainty.

I'm bothered by him mostly b/c he didn't priortize Sid/Geno any more than he did the rest of the team. And that's just dumb. He was gifted the two best players on the planet.

That's part of it. But if all the rumours from the time were true, we had the chance to flip Pouliot in a deal for Kesler and balked. That bothers me.

And we were in that position regarding the cap because of guys like Kunitz (who hasn't been good for a few years, despite his regular season production), Scuderi, and the like.

We settled for Dupuis playing out of position as a top six winger because we didn't have the brains or the balls to do the hard work in finding legitimate wingers for Sid as well as Geno. I love Duper, he's a Hell of a guy, but he never should have been in the top six. Ever. I don't care if he managed to score 20 goals. We needed to not be alright with that. And in the end, that is the motto for the Shero era. "Sid and Geno are so good that they can make due with scraps."

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on Kunitz and Dupes. Kunitz was worth 3.85 mil by any reasonable measure last year. Dupes shouldn't have been on a scoring line, but he still could have justified his salary on the 3rd had he been healthy, IMO. But we can agree those two combined with Scuds was overkill in the age department. Too much risk of injury/decline.

Yeah. While in the midst of a financial disaster. Shero inherited Sid, Geno, Fleury, and the #2 pick from Patrick. Doesn't matter how we landed the players, we got 'em. JR, for all of his incompetence and inability to pinpoint and eliminate the issues on this team, inherited Kunitz, Scuderi, Adams, and a barren cupboard with regard to prospects.

All I'm trying to underline is that the guy before Shero and the guy after didn't do anything to make me think that complementing superstars to build a contender is something anyone can accomplish.

Shero left the Pens with a lot more good than bad. If anyone thinks the Scuds, Dupes, Adams and Kunitz signings are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to bad deals, they need to look at the track record of more GMs.

Disagree. I don't care if we make it to the first round or the ECF, if we don't make a Finals appearance, it's all the same to me. Neal and Hornqvist is a wash in terms of production--but Hornqvist is a much more effective player. Spaling makes too much money, but he's miles ahead of Glass. Perron's had a horrendous stretch, but he's going to be a far better player than Jokinen. Outside of Sid, Geno, Hornqvist, and Perron, we're in the same position in terms of garbage throughout our forwards.

And ECF team is the same as a team that gets bounced in the 1st in 5? That's a pretty left field perspective.

Neal and Hornqvist aren't a wash in terms of production...Neal was a much more productive player here, and he scored twice as many playoff goals centered by Ribeiro this year than Hornqvist did centered by Crosby.

So far the idea that we're better today than a year ago is nothing but crossed fingers. Bottom line is that we can't score and were bounced in 5.

 

[TNT87]

Pissed that there is no compensation.

 

[mpp9]

That's part of it. But if all the rumours from the time were true, we had the chance to flip Pouliot in a deal for Kesler and balked. That bothers me.

Kesler is playing every bit as well this postseason as I thought he would here. He's definitely alot of what we've been missing.

Looking back at the past few postseasons, I don't think we were a Kesler away from winning a Cup. We might have made it interesting, but I don't think it's enough.

I'm fine with keeping DP if it means we commit to playing him along with what talented youth we have. We need more than one good player. We need half a forward group and a rebuild on defense.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Kesler wasn't a fit then, still not a fit now. He's a No. 2 center. We have one of those. The best, in fact.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Shero left the Pens with a lot more good than bad. If anyone thinks the Scuds, Dupes, Adams and Kunitz signings are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to bad deals, they need to look at the track record of more GMs.

Disagree. Vehemently. Shero left a barren prospect pool, a handful of over the hill players, a laughably bad bottom six by AHL standards, and a near complete void at wing in our top six. For all the flak that JR gets for the Despres deal (and rightly so), he didn't make any multi-year signing disasters. Shero couldn't let go and move on. He was unable, or stubbornly and spitefully unwilling to evolve and adapt in accordance to the league's best. He lived and died by "It worked in '09, it can work again." So he neglected to fill out the top six with legitimate talent. He held on, with white-knuckles and nostalgic tears streaming down his face, to guys who were clearly bad options.

And ECF team is the same as a team that gets bounced in the 1st in 5? That's a pretty left field perspective.

Neal and Hornqvist aren't a wash in terms of production...Neal was a much more productive player here, and he scored twice as many playoff goals centered by Ribeiro this year than Hornqvist did centered by Crosby.

So far the idea that we're better today than a year ago is nothing but crossed fingers. Bottom line is that we can't score and were bounced in 5.

When you have Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin, it should be a given that the team makes the ECF. I'd expect this organization to put together a team capable of doing that, and I'd be satisfied with a Finals appearance. Anything short of that is the same **** to me. You lost, and you failed miserably in doing so. You have the best player in the world, and arguably the second best, and you can't make the Conference Finals in a weak East with regularity? Not acceptable, and it comes down to the way this team is made up.

Let's not re-hash the Neal and Hornqvist thing. I think Neal is grossly overrated and we're never going to agree or convince one another to the other side of the fence. Better to just not even bring it up. We've got entire threads of that in the past.

Bottom line is we haven't been the team we should be for 5+ years. Period. JR being incompetent and terrible doesn't wash away the disgusting pile of garbage Shero left in his wake. Shero mangled this team, and while you are right that he was in charge for the moves that surrounded the foundation with a Cup caliber team, he is also in charge for the disastrous and precipitous fall from that level over the next 5+ years. I don't think tinkering and adding depth guys counteracts the nightmare of Shero's time here after the Cup.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Kesler wasn't a fit then, still not a fit now. He's a No. 2 center. We have one of those. The best, in fact.

You talked about Galchenyuk being flexible in the other thread, what makes you think Kesler would've been solely used as a center here? He's been successful at wing before.

We biffed it by not pursuing Kesler with the utmost urgency. The guy's a monster, and exactly what we have been missing for years.

 

[BHD]

He was a victim of his own success. I'll always admire him for the Cup team.