Larry Brooks: Rangers will be selling

[Phoicon]

Can’t it be both?

These minor roles are not the reason we suck.

Plus our player selection for the 4th line and the 3rd pair is heavily dependent on what our Head Coach prefers.

These are the types of players AV wants. Holden being is particular favourite.

To be fair, Carey and Nieves have been fine as 4th liners. Holland has been adequate but is a bit slow.Overusage of Holden is the only problematic case in the list given above.

In terms of players, the real problems we have are on our top-4 defense and top-6 forwards. I will highlight the following:

- Shattenkirk playing with a hidden injury
- McD just tired like Hank constantly from overusage due to a chaotic defensive system
- Skej’s slump
- Smith being confused out of his mind about the man to man coverage we have as a classical zone defender, which he was in Detroit and for us in the playoffs.

So it’s 50/50 between coach (McD, Smith) and the players (Shattenkirk, Skej)

On top-6 forwards it is much the same:

- The biggest player caused problem is Miller not taking the next step to become a more dominant top-6 player
- The biggest coaching caused problem Buchnevich not being played like the 1st line winger that he is but rather ritting on the 4th line
- Nash having a an historically low scoring percentage due to simply going through motions. He is paid to score, to take inititwtive and be aggresive. Not to be great on the PK. This is on the player.
- Zucc being tired of being overused to plug holes and generate offense because of a lack of a coherent gameplan. Most people do not see it, but both Zucc and McD are victims of our chaos on the ice: quiet guys who give their all and get taken advantage of by a know-nothing HC.
- Kreider’s out due to blood clots. Which neither here or there. But he will be back next season as therapy takes 3-6 months.
- Zib’s a bit soft still but taking baby steps to becoming an offensive dynamo. His shot is better but strength is still missing. He was more of a 2B / 3A center last year, now he is a legit 2A center and next year he can be our 1st. This one is on management, we wanted him to be what he could be a bit too early.

All-in-all, our chaotic defensive and offensive approach does not give us fallbacks when everyone is not exceeding their roles slightly or injuries happen. Our poor preparation to the season makes progress of individual players and the team unlikely.

So it’s 50/50 on top players and on the Head Coach, as in our system assistants currently are largerly ceremonial and replaceable.

The only glaring mistake by management was expecting Zib to be a 1C this year. Expecting Miller, Nash, Skej and Shattenkirk to perform better was reasonable. That is on the players.

The HC is responsible for our totally chaotic defense and offense. The middle of the ice being the only zone where we perform well.

Everyone loves the meme that Smith came to camp out of shape but our entire team was unprepared for the increasing intensity of the NHL.

Based on this year’s performance I would give 4.5 mil for 6 years for Miller. 3.75 for 5 years for Skej and definitely trade Nash without asking him to come back. All of these guys are asked to be wolves and they play like the queen’s bosom spaniels. Soft.

Miller and Skej are guys that will take paycuts and enjoy the NY lifestyle a bit less. Consider it a bit of a sacrifice to win the cup

I would also trade Shattenkirk before McD. Only McD, if a fantastic offer is there for us.

Then I would ask AV to resign or to be fired.

 

[nsvoyageurs]

I hope this "blow it up" story is true. This is long overdue. Now the debate will be how the other NHL teams rate the Rangers' available assets. McDonagh/Zuccarello would bring back the most. Not sure what Nash's value would be. Would Lundqvist consider waiving his no movement clause? The market for goalies usually isn't great, especially one with his contract/cap number, maybe retain some money on him to better the return.

 

[Elliman]

Zucc is one point away from 300 NHL points all with the Rangers and 6 goals away from 100 goals. I’d like to see him do that with the Rangers before (if the rumors are true) he’s traded. Still don’t see a point in moving him this season but whatever.

 

[SnowFort]

I wonder how this will affect the team play for the next few weeks. There’s no chance they haven’t heard about it.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

I wonder how this will affect the team play for the next few weeks. There’s no chance they haven’t heard about it.

hopefully the guys listed see it as an opportunity and play better

 

[Vitto79]

So does a guy like Staal say yea I will waive the no trade now?

I’d rather keep McD , Skjei as the top 2 ld and just play Graves the rest of the year to see what they have

Rd I doubt they can move Smith .....Holden easily moved for a pick .... May aswell play deAngelo ... see Graves

So they could use a young rd , what team doesn’t but if they can land a Barrie that’s ideal

 

[Glennsoe]

Man, if only zuke was 3 years younger we wouldn't be having this conversation right now..

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

These are the types of players AV wants. Holden being is particular favourite.


- McD just tired like Hank constantly from overusage due to a chaotic defensive system

- Smith being confused out of his mind about the man to man coverage we have as a classical zone defender, which he was in Detroit and for us in the playoffs.

.

Not news to me but reading it still made me angry lol. A good coach maximizes his talent and gets the most out of his players skills. Besides grabner this system does that for NO ONE. Av is a terrible coach, flat out.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

There is one neurotic poster in this thread who is whining incessantly as if McDonagh has already been traded for peanuts. Read Brooks’ article again. It highlights how management recognizes McDonagh is the crown jewel of the organization when it comes to values. It states the return would have to be massive. It states the likelihood of seeing what McDonagh would fetch at the draft when the trade market may expand. That’s a sober approach.

Don’t let one posters hissy fit for something that hasnt happened hijack the thesis of this article, which is the organizations realization that they need to reload in an effort to be legitimate contenders again. It should be a happy day for all Ranger fans who have had to endure plugs and patchwork fixes to clown car rosters for decades - all in the name of “winning now.” This is a perfect time to reset. The milks gone bad with the roster that gave us great moments over the last several years. I am thankful for those memories and even more thankful that the organization realizes this sale is necessary to create that next window of opportunity.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Maybe management feels like revamping the roster is more critically important than jettisoning the coach at the moment. Ya know, some of us have been saying that for a while as this board virtually ignored the decaying roster and focused its ire entirely on the coach.

Maybe people disagree with your assessment of the roster as "decaying"? Can't be that! nawww, it's gotta be that no one else can see what you, in your genius alone, can see.

Edit: Step and Girardi were decaying. They were replaced with Skeji, ADA, Smith and hopefully soon a kid like Graves in the farm. As for Step, we got Lias and Chytterbug. In the meantime Zib and Hayes (Two young guys not decaying at all but limited in their abilities thus far) are taking on the extra ice in the meantime. Zuc and Nash are getting older but I can't see how two players getting older is an entire roster decaying. Holes in the roster sure. But decaying?

There is one neurotic poster in this thread who is whining incessantly as if McDonagh has already been traded for peanuts.

So go talk to that poster about his stance, why you disagree with it and have a conversation instead of passive aggressively referring to it as a way to shame them...

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Man, if only zuke was 3 years younger we wouldn't be having this conversation right now..

Zucc was a late bloomer and a long shot. What we got from him on the ice and what we will get via trade will be double anything we could’ve expected

 

[yrrebbor]

If it makes you feel any better it's not computer/browser friendly either

Or iPad.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Maybe people disagree with your assessment of the roster? Can't be that! nawww, it's gotta be that no one else can see what you, in your genius alone, can see.



So go talk to that poster about his stance, why you disagree with it and have a conversation instead of passive aggressively referring to it as a way to shame them...

I understand this has to be difficult for those who unflinchingly and wrongly thought this is a Stanley cup caliber roster. That it’s simply the coach holding them back. It sucks being wrong and it must suck for the organization to validate how wrong you were/are. Unfortunately, I have little sympathy for those who bypassed the major issue - a decaying core and lack of depth due to years of of spinning off assets - in an attempt to pin all the problems on one person.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

If McDonagh gets traded, nuke the ****ing thing.

I concede to the rebuild and the 7-10 years of garbage

There are some very very talented players on the cusp of taking very important roles with the NYR. Losing McD stinks but Nash, Zucc and Grabs are not a huge loss, their current production can be replaced without too much difficulty. idk if I buy them trading McD unless it's returning the top pick in the draft or a top D prospect +.

Going back to Gomez, this team routinely sells aging players and has routinely gotten great prospects out of these deals. The only exception being the MSL trade.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I understand this has to be difficult for those who unflinchingly and wrongly thought this is a Stanley cup caliber roster.

It also sucks to base a whole paragraph response on a completely incorrect assumption about the person you're responding to.

Also, again, why do you post in such a scared, passive aggressive way? If you think certain people are only mad bc we thought this was a cup caliber roster then call us out on it instead of vaguely alluding to the notion that some people MIGHT have felt that way. We're not in high school, we're (mostly) adult men, speak plainly.

I don't see much of a reason fto think what you are alluding to is true. People have gone into great detail about AV's roster management, system, actual coaching. I am not sure I've seen anyone simply say they were mad at AV for "ruining only this years roster which would be a cup contender".

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

It also sucks to base a whole paragraph response on a completely incorrect assumption about the person you're responding to.

Also, again, why do you post in such a scared, passive aggressive way? If you think certain people are only mad bc we thought this was a cup caliber roster then call us out on it instead of vaguely alluding to the notion that some people MIGHT have felt that way. We're not in high school, we're (mostly) adult men, speak plainly.

I don't see much of a reason fto think what you are alluding to is true. People have gone into great detail about AV's roster management, system, actual coaching. I am not sure I've seen anyone simply say they were mad at AV for ruining only this years roster which would be a cup contender.

The AV situation is going to be dealt with. Thankfully, they are dealing with the major problems first. There will be lots of work to do in the offseason, and the direction will be heavily dictated by what this sale brings back. As for the comment on my posts, I don’t know what you are talking about and won’t be changing. You have been one of the problems in wasting a ton of ink on the coach if you’d like me to get specific.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

The AV situation is going to be dealt with. Thankfully, they are dealing with the major problems first. There will be lots of work to do in the offseason, and the direction will be heavily dictated by what this sale brings back. As for the comment on my posts, I don’t know what you are talking about and won’t be changing. You have been one of the problems in wasting a ton of ink on the coach if you’d like me to get specific.

I didn't demand or ask that you change. I asked why you post passive aggressively and try to comment about "certain posters" or in weird generalities instead of just talking about/directly to those posters. You constantly offer opinions with allusions to things that set up a "you vs them" narrative. It's just strange to me so I'm asking why you do it. Do you think groups of HFers are out to get you? I see you in arguments all the time with multiple people, sure but it's bc you're opinions stink to them.

I disagree that the roster is as bad or as flawed as you think. Which is not a bad thing. We just disagree on that point. Holes are there for sure. But I definitely have greatly disliked AV's coaching for YEARS.

"One of the problems" with who? Is there a secret cabal meeting to discuss the "ink" I waste? Why was I not invited to this apparently important groups clandestine meetings? Were there refreshments?

 

[alkurtz]

I'm not sure I agree with some of the assessments of Nash offered above. In fact, I strongly disagree.

To say that since he is being paid to be a scorer, was once an elite scorer, and is since he is not now either, and thus is only going through the motions, is absolutely incorrect.

Nash is not the player he once was. He has aged and been injured (including concussions). He has lost some of his quickness and skating ability. He has lost some of his quick reflexes. He simply cannot do the things he once did. As with most aging players, the downward trend is not a straight line. There are nights he seems to be able to do the things he once did, while others (and really most), he can't.

Don't you think that he wants to score? Don't you think he wants to reclaim his lost youth? To say no is to make a completely incorrect evaluation of what the game is like for the players who actually play it.

So he does what he can: being responsible without the puck, taking his defensive roll seriously, being a mentor and role model to young players both by example (in the locker room, at practice, etc) and by direct intervention.

Of course he is being overpaid for a player with that kind of role. But his contract was signed when he was young and in his prime.

He was an elite player who is aging gracefully: not mailing it in, not going through the motions, contributing what and when he can in every way possible.

I have tremendous admiration for players like this. He plays with pride, plays hard, wears his heart on his sleeve, wears the Rangers sweater with pride.

That is not to say he shouldn't move him. We should.

But to accuse him of not caring, not playing hard, etc., is just wrong. That is not the player I see.

 

[kovazub94]

Here are a few reading between the lines thoughts:

1. Brooks put out a little dig against AV in McD discussion when he said McTruck would be rejuvenated in a more structured system. Not mentioning firing AV does not mean it is not in plans but it just wasn’t needed in this article about roster overhaul. And even if AV is not fired and gets a chance with a new roster - he will be on a very short leash if the team underperforms relative to FO expectations. Plus Ruff or Arnie don’t seem to be viable replacement candidates and there will be more head coaching options to consider in offseason.

2. It is VERY interesting that the article mentioned Dolan. Now when you go talk to your top boss it is different from how we “musing” on potential return. I bet Gorton had something way more concrete than “maybe we get a first rounder for Nash”, probably based on actual recent discussions he had with other teams. Because it also mentioned no appetite for a deep dive that a full rebuild via drafting would bring, I bet there will be young but already NHL-ready return that will be a part of team’s long term core.

 

[eco's bones]

These minor roles are not the reason we suck.

Plus our player selection for the 4th line and the 3rd pair is heavily dependent on what our Head Coach prefers.

These are the types of players AV wants. Holden being is particular favourite.

To be fair, Carey and Nieves have been fine as 4th liners. Holland has been adequate but is a bit slow.Overusage of Holden is the only problematic case in the list given above.

In terms of players, the real problems we have are on our top-4 defense and top-6 forwards. I will highlight the following:

- Shattenkirk playing with a hidden injury
- McD just tired like Hank constantly from overusage due to a chaotic defensive system
- Skej’s slump
- Smith being confused out of his mind about the man to man coverage we have as a classical zone defender, which he was in Detroit and for us in the playoffs.

So it’s 50/50 between coach (McD, Smith) and the players (Shattenkirk, Skej)

On top-6 forwards it is much the same:

- The biggest player caused problem is Miller not taking the next step to become a more dominant top-6 player
- The biggest coaching caused problem Buchnevich not being played like the 1st line winger that he is but rather ritting on the 4th line
- Nash having a an historically low scoring percentage due to simply going through motions. He is paid to score, to take inititwtive and be aggresive. Not to be great on the PK. This is on the player.
- Zucc being tired of being overused to plug holes and generate offense because of a lack of a coherent gameplan. Most people do not see it, but both Zucc and McD are victims of our chaos on the ice: quiet guys who give their all and get taken advantage of by a know-nothing HC.
- Kreider’s out due to blood clots. Which neither here or there. But he will be back next season as therapy takes 3-6 months.
- Zib’s a bit soft still but taking baby steps to becoming an offensive dynamo. His shot is better but strength is still missing. He was more of a 2B / 3A center last year, now he is a legit 2A center and next year he can be our 1st. This one is on management, we wanted him to be what he could be a bit too early.

All-in-all, our chaotic defensive and offensive approach does not give us fallbacks when everyone is not exceeding their roles slightly or injuries happen. Our poor preparation to the season makes progress of individual players and the team unlikely.

So it’s 50/50 on top players and on the Head Coach, as in our system assistants currently are largerly ceremonial and replaceable.

The only glaring mistake by management was expecting Zib to be a 1C this year. Expecting Miller, Nash, Skej and Shattenkirk to perform better was reasonable. That is on the players.

The HC is responsible for our totally chaotic defense and offense. The middle of the ice being the only zone where we perform well.

Everyone loves the meme that Smith came to camp out of shape but our entire team was unprepared for the increasing intensity of the NHL.

Based on this year’s performance I would give 4.5 mil for 6 years for Miller. 3.75 for 5 years for Skej and definitely trade Nash without asking him to come back. All of these guys are asked to be wolves and they play like the queen’s bosom spaniels. Soft.

Miller and Skej are guys that will take paycuts and enjoy the NY lifestyle a bit less. Consider it a bit of a sacrifice to win the cup

I would also trade Shattenkirk before McD. Only McD, if a fantastic offer is there for us.

Then I would ask AV to resign or to be fired.

It's a very good post but I have some caveats.

I think the coaching staff has used Buchnevich correctly. He's stronger this year but he's still coming into his body and gets knocked around just a little too much and IMO the Rangers are not overusing him for that reason. He's made a real step forward in production and I expect him to take another step forward next year. Sometimes patience is what's needed to develop a player the right way.

Zibanejad IMO is never going to be a very good top line center. I don't think he has enough drive. He should be a 2nd line center and asking him for more than that I think is not going to work.....not unless you're satisfied with a first line where guys max out in the 50+ point range. He's not going to turn into Getzlaf, Bergeron, Backstrom, O'Reilly or Kopitar. Certainly not into a Crosby or McDavid. The Rangers either go back to a 3 2nd line worthy center lineup like Stepan, Brassard, Hayes or they're going to need to find someone better than Zibanejad.

I think Miller and Kreider are what they are. In healthy years they will go through streaks and they'll go through slumps. For now they are players good for 50+ points if healthy. Give either of them more creative line mates and you might get more.

As for AV--'resign or be fired'--that smells like something the Florida Panthers would do. If you want to go in another direction....you fire him plain and simple. It's always a good rule of thumb to treat those you work with with respect. Treat people well and the tendency others will see that and will do their best for you. That's what I would expect of anyone who would think of themselves as professionals and both Gorton and Vigneault have earned the right to think of themselves that way. Like AV or not--he did get the team to the Stanley Cup finals--something that hadn't happened in 20 f***ing years. That was an accomplishment. Things have gone downhill since. IMO it's not all his fault but......sometimes you need a change. No point to any needless acrimony though.

 

[haohmaru]

I understand this has to be difficult for those who unflinchingly and wrongly thought this is a Stanley cup caliber roster. That it’s simply the coach holding them back. It sucks being wrong and it must suck for the organization to validate how wrong you were/are. Unfortunately, I have little sympathy for those who bypassed the major issue - a decaying core and lack of depth due to years of of spinning off assets - in an attempt to pin all the problems on one person.

I thought this roster was a bubble team - and here they are, a bubble team.

I disagree with your reasons, but I predicted similar results.

For me:

Depth down the middle is still their biggest issue. And, AV has ran his course. He's not a bad coach, but he's done here and his "system" (if you can tell me exactly what that is, I'd appreciate it) doesn't work with this set of players and his pairings are just head scratching.

Get what you can, play some of the younger guys, and see what happens.

 

[kovazub94]

Coming into the season this team’s biggest issue purely from the roster perspective was 2/3C and overall thinness in case of injuries. Both definitely manifested itself because there was a pretty good performance stretch when everyone was healthy.

The other part was and still is AV in a way he deploys the roster and his system. If it’s not dealt immediately then it will in the offseason (as I mentioned earlier I even can see AV getting a chance with a new roster).

I bet that Gorton “promised” Dolan that with his plan for this trade deadline and into offseason the team will be back into playoffs and among SC contenders as soon as next season.

 

[NYR713]

I'm OK with them selling everyone mentioned in the article if the returns are good, especially concerning McD and Zucc, each having another very affordable year left. You have to figure Nash is 1st+, Grabs possibly a 1st, some depth picks out of Holden and DD and then the ransom that would be demanded for McD and Zucc and we could be talking five 1st rd picks(including NYR pick) plus a couple NHL ready (or near ready) prospects to take a look at over the last half of the season.
But, if it happens there needs to be a wipe of the coaching staff as well. You can't go full rebuild and then roll with the same leadership. Fresh start all around.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

At minimum:
Grabner
Nash
DD
Holden

Good:
Mcdonagh
Zucc

Great:
Smith
Staal

 

[pld459666]

I've been waiting for a complete change in the make up of this team.

The group as a whole is not and has not been good enough.

Moving Stepan was a start but not nearly enough.

This season is probably the most advantageous season to do what is being rumored.