Post-Game Talk: Rangers vs. Red Wings | 3/19/19 - 7PM - MSG

[Edge]

Chytil is a solid piece to team but not someone to build around. You guys all use the same line “you don’t know how a rebuild works.” Please, it’s obvious how they work so just stop. It’s also obvious how lots of teams try rebuilds and fail at them year after year after year. See Phoenix, Buffalo, Edmonton, Florida, just to name a few. What’s the common thread here— all these teams sold their fans on a rebuild and are still trying to figure it out. Also, all these teams rushed players to the NHL. Also, all these teams had very little organizational depth when it comes to talent before starting their rebuilds. Any of that sound familiar?!!?

Now, I’d rather follow the Toronto method. First, hire a great front office and NHL level coach( I like Quinn but he’s a stop gap guy.). Second, get elite talent by drafting generational talent( the absolute hardest and most luck dependent aspect.) The other part Toronto did very well was they kept a core of their young talent in the minors and allowed them to develop. That’s key.

Again, I’m rooting for this to work out- even though I’m avainst the rebuild. This front office has had one and a half seasons to get this going. I think the house is pretty much gutted. The dismantling is pretty over. I hope they start building with quality material.

The failed teams you mentioned also have other things in common.

They’re all smaller market teams. They all struggled to attract and retain free agents. They also tended to struggle to find talent outside lottery picks.

The truth of the matter is that there’s not a large number of teams that fail at rebuilds, there’s a consistent group of teams that fail over and over and over again.

Most of the larger markets comparable to NY have actually done quite well - Chicago, LA, Boston, Toronto, etc.

I’ve always felt the arguments against the rebuild typically failed to compare us to teams in similar markets, with similar resources.

 

[Kovalev27]

So Chytil played center and was a million times more engaged and moving his feet than he’s been in months. Hmm where’d you hear that happening before? He’s a center. He’s a skater needs to be in the middle to be more involved. Tons of centers like that including Hayes who’s lost on the wing.

Kid should play the rest of the schedule at center ice.

 

[EdJovanovski]

So Chytil played center and was a million times more engaged and moving his feet than he’s been in months. Hmm where’d you hear that happening before? He’s a center. He’s a skater needs to be in the middle to be more involved. Tons of centers like that including Hayes who’s lost on the wing.

Kid should play the rest of the schedule at center ice.

100% agree and I don’t understand why everyone wrote him off as a center and have him slotted in on the wing for the rest of his career

 

[Calad]

The Rangers may need to sign a guy like Panarian just to make the NHL salary floor next year based on the trash heap it looks like they will have! I’m just beyond frustrated with this idea that the NHL roster has to be a complete dumpster fire for years to come so the Rangers can stock pile assets. Also, lots of you are totally ignoring the fact that these assets currently have no place to develop within the organization because of the absolute train wreck Hartford is and with the Rangers being absolutely horrendous, that’s not exactly an environment to develop in. As said in my first post tonight, this team is miles away from being good but let’s at least get the car moving in the direction of being good again. Right now it looks like everyone wants the car to be heading in the direction of horrible!

I’m not writing guys like Chytil off. He’s looked ok at times this season and probably has the highest upside potential for any forward aside from Mika currently on the roster. I’m interested to see him develop.

As i've discussed elsewhere. Panarin will help us reach cap floor, be a vet for our youngsters to learn from, and be an elite talent that this team can lean on. Past next year our roster will be devoid of veterans and just have RFAs and tons of guys on ELCs. With how young and inexperience our ENTIRE roster will be, having 1 Panarin & Karlsson will not be the difference between bottom 5 and bubble team.

People seem to be stuck in the past. People want this team to tank HARD because thats how teams like Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA built their dynasties. Except you cant expect tanks to go like that anymore because the 3 slot lottery ended this. And remember, for all those teams, theres Buffalo, Arizona, Edmonton, Ottawa.

 

[Dijock94]

So Chytil played center and was a million times more engaged and moving his feet than he’s been in months. Hmm where’d you hear that happening before? He’s a center. He’s a skater needs to be in the middle to be more involved. Tons of centers like that including Hayes who’s lost on the wing.

Kid should play the rest of the schedule at center ice.

I missed the game but this is good to hear.

 

[Inferno]

As i've discussed elsewhere. Panarin will help us reach cap floor, be a vet for our youngsters to learn from, and be an elite talent that this team can lean on. Past next year our roster will be devoid of veterans and just have RFAs and tons of guys on ELCs. With how young and inexperience our ENTIRE roster will be, having 1 Panarin & Karlsson will not be the difference between bottom 5 and bubble team.

People seem to be stuck in the past. People want this team to tank HARD because thats how teams like Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA built their dynasties. Except you cant expect tanks to go like that anymore because the 3 slot lottery ended this. And remember, for all those teams, theres Buffalo, Arizona, Edmonton, Ottawa.

The rangers are in no danger of being below the cap floor.. heck they're already basically there without signing any of their rfas

 

[Inferno]

Barring Panarin, we are going to be this bad for all of next season.

All season. This bad.

I gotta dig deep and try to find something else to give a **** about for the next 12 months, I guess.

They're gonna be worse. I fully expect more vets to be shipped out...and no I don't expect panarin...but if they can acquire a nylander....

 

[Calad]

The rangers are in no danger of being below the cap floor.. heck they're already basically there without signing any of their rfas

Right, but consider our current situation. After next season Kreider, Namestnikov, Vesey, & Fast will all be UFA. Thats $13 million right there. Maybe someone will be looking to pick up Brendan Smith or Shattenkirk at the deadline (or even draft) next year). If not, the following season we lose Shattenkirk (6.66) Staal (5.875) Smith (4.375) and Hank (8.5). That's nearly $40 million of the books of our cap. 2 Seasons from now you would expect our farm system to bare some fruits considering all the picks we've made (and will make) up to that point. Lots of those guys are gonna be on ELCs, the rest of the players still around will be RFAs and no one here is showing that they will get a huge payday up to this point. There's no worthwhile free agents coming up in the 2 off seasons following this one. So why not use all that extra cap space while we have it to get an elite player? By the time our young guns start commanding big bucks, Panarin's or Karlsson's contract would be coming to a close. Plenty of bad teams have elite players (Eichel, Kopitar/Doughty, McDavid/Draisaitl, Kane, Karlsson on Ottawa last year), that didn't stop them from being bad. So why exactly should we avoid getting an elite player?

 

[aufheben]

I really had a feeling this was going to be the one game they just wreck, because of the timing. Nope, just anther game against the Red Wings.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

Even for the people who are against the tank, it's somewhat shocking to me to see their reactions in here at this point. Basically, you would rather this team have kept Zucc and Hayes, finished outside of the playoffs and had us end up with the 10th overall pick, just so you could enjoy the games a little more this year. I don't get it. Maybe it's just me, but whether we finished one spot outside the playoffs or last, that's a terrible season for me. In fact, I'd say this season overall has been more enjoyable for me than many where we either just snuck into the playoffs, or just missed. I'd rather lose every game in the hopes our future would be much brighter, than continuously finish just on the cusp with no real shot of being cup contenders and I really see no argument at this point for hoping they win out the rest of their games.

Chytil is a solid piece to team but not someone to build around. You guys all use the same line “you don’t know how a rebuild works.” Please, it’s obvious how they work so just stop. It’s also obvious how lots of teams try rebuilds and fail at them year after year after year. See Phoenix, Buffalo, Edmonton, Florida, just to name a few. What’s the common thread here— all these teams sold their fans on a rebuild and are still trying to figure it out. Also, all these teams rushed players to the NHL. Also, all these teams had very little organizational depth when it comes to talent before starting their rebuilds. Any of that sound familiar?!!?

Regarding rebuilds, I'm just going to say I agree with @Edge as the teams you compare the Rangers too have far larger problems than the Rangers, hence the reason they continuously finish at the bottom. Poor owernship, lack of funds, no direction, bad developmental system, no continuity, a history of getting destroyed in trades, completely whiffing on top 3 picks, little to no FA attraction, etc. These franchises are not really relative to our organization from a macro or micro perspective and you, along with many others, who continuously throw them in the faces of those who prefer a 'proper rebuild,' do little to solidify your case.

As for your point about Chytil, I completely disagree. Would you consider Barkov, Zibanejad, hell even Joe Thornton a player you build around? Many young players have mediocre or even awful first seasons. Chytil has shown some brilliance this year, some awfulness and loads of in between. Pretty much what you can expect from a 19 year old finding his legs in the best league in the world. We have no idea whether or not he will be a supplementary piece or a driving force on this future squad. From my perspective, there's a lot to be hopeful about, and pigeonholing him at this point in time is foolish.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

Right, but consider our current situation. After next season Kreider, Namestnikov, Vesey, & Fast will all be UFA. Thats $13 million right there. Maybe someone will be looking to pick up Brendan Smith or Shattenkirk at the deadline (or even draft) next year). If not, the following season we lose Shattenkirk (6.66) Staal (5.875) Smith (4.375) and Hank (8.5). That's nearly $40 million of the books of our cap. 2 Seasons from now you would expect our farm system to bare some fruits considering all the picks we've made (and will make) up to that point. Lots of those guys are gonna be on ELCs, the rest of the players still around will be RFAs and no one here is showing that they will get a huge payday up to this point. There's no worthwhile free agents coming up in the 2 off seasons following this one. So why not use all that extra cap space while we have it to get an elite player? By the time our young guns start commanding big bucks, Panarin's or Karlsson's contract would be coming to a close. Plenty of bad teams have elite players (Eichel, Kopitar/Doughty, McDavid/Draisaitl, Kane, Karlsson on Ottawa last year), that didn't stop them from being bad. So why exactly should we avoid getting an elite player?

That's a lot of what ifs and tying up an enormous amount of future cap space in a player who will be on the wrong side of 30 by the time we compete would be really short-sighted.

If the Rangers choose to sign Panarin, it damn well better be for purposes unrelated to reaching the cap floor. Personally, I don't think there are many, if any, sound arguments for signing Panarin, but this one is really possibly the worst.

They can easily reach the cap floor by signing a plethora of short/mid-term contracts, similar to Names/Spooner/Strome, etc - and none of these will handicap us when we actually need the money to either re-sign our guys, or supplement a core that's ready to compete.

 

[Vitto79]

Good tanking of late

 

[RangerBoy]

The Rangers have the fewest ROW's in the NHL after the Red Wings game last night.

 

[SML2]

 

[haohmaru]

I'm not anti or pro Gilmour but he made some pretty egregious mistakes out there last night. Uncertain about his future as an NHL pro.

 

[SML2]

What's the point of John Giannone's game summaries?

Hate them. I Can't imagine anyone else thinks it's good either, but no one shuts his Mic off in time to stop it.

 

[JHS]

As i've discussed elsewhere. Panarin will help us reach cap floor, be a vet for our youngsters to learn from, and be an elite talent that this team can lean on. Past next year our roster will be devoid of veterans and just have RFAs and tons of guys on ELCs. With how young and inexperience our ENTIRE roster will be, having 1 Panarin & Karlsson will not be the difference between bottom 5 and bubble team.

People seem to be stuck in the past. People want this team to tank HARD because thats how teams like Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA built their dynasties. Except you cant expect tanks to go like that anymore because the 3 slot lottery ended this. And remember, for all those teams, theres Buffalo, Arizona, Edmonton, Ottawa.

This is exactly my point! I’ve been slaughtered on here for saying the same thing though so you better be ready to get blasted! Thanks for speaking up though!

Truth is, I’m not even a huge fan of Panarin or Karlson. The concept though that this team has to be horrendous is just so over blown. The point of rebuilds is to get assets. The Rangers can’t just I’ve in this mindset of “let’s be bad.” Being bad is the easy part of the rebuild. At some point they will need to start taking action in order to move the roster in the “ let’s be good” direction.

 

[SML2]

I'm not anti or pro Gilmour but he made some pretty egregious mistakes out there last night. Uncertain about his future as an NHL pro.

Why are they insisting the guy is a defenseman? He's got great wheels and some offensive talent. I would give him a whirl at the wing down in Hartford to see how it goes.

 

[SML2]

This is exactly my point! I’ve been slaughtered on here for saying the same thing though so you better be ready to get blasted! Thanks for speaking up though!

Truth is, I’m not even a huge fan of Panarin or Karlson. The concept though that this team has to be horrendous is just so over blown. The point of rebuilds is to get assets. The Rangers can’t just I’ve in this mindset of “let’s be bad.” Being bad is the easy part of the rebuild. At some point they will need to start taking action in order to move the roster in the “ let’s be good” direction.

Whatever team signs Karlsson will regret it. I have a bad feeling that his best days on the ice are behind him, but his best days at the bank are ahead if him.

 

[haohmaru]

Agree on Karlsson - whatever contract he gets he probably can't live up to it over its term. I wouldn't go near it.

 

[egelband]

Why are they insisting the guy is a defenseman? He's got great wheels and some offensive talent. I would give him a whirl at the wing down in Hartford to see how it goes.

He can play Rover

 

[JHS]

Even for the people who are against the tank, it's somewhat shocking to me to see their reactions in here at this point. Basically, you would rather this team have kept Zucc and Hayes, finished outside of the playoffs and had us end up with the 10th overall pick, just so you could enjoy the games a little more this year. I don't get it. Maybe it's just me, but whether we finished one spot outside the playoffs or last, that's a terrible season for me. In fact, I'd say this season overall has been more enjoyable for me than many where we either just snuck into the playoffs, or just missed. I'd rather lose every game in the hopes our future would be much brighter, than continuously finish just on the cusp with no real shot of being cup contenders and I really see no argument at this point for hoping they win out the rest of their games.




Regarding rebuilds, I'm just going to say I agree with @Edge as the teams you compare the Rangers too have far larger problems than the Rangers, hence the reason they continuously finish at the bottom. Poor owernship, lack of funds, no direction, bad developmental system, no continuity, a history of getting destroyed in trades, completely whiffing on top 3 picks, little to no FA attraction, etc. These franchises are not really relative to our organization from a macro or micro perspective and you, along with many others, who continuously throw them in the faces of those who prefer a 'proper rebuild,' do little to solidify your case.

As for your point about Chytil, I completely disagree. Would you consider Barkov, Zibanejad, hell even Joe Thornton a player you build around? Many young players have mediocre or even awful first seasons. Chytil has shown some brilliance this year, some awfulness and loads of in between. Pretty much what you can expect from a 19 year old finding his legs in the best league in the world. We have no idea whether or not he will be a supplementary piece or a driving force on this future squad. From my perspective, there's a lot to be hopeful about, and pigeonholing him at this point in time is foolish.

So your paragraph in which you mention the shortcomings of other rebuilding organizations where you list issues with their rebuild I find comical. Not because you don’t make valid points( you do) but because I read that and I say,

Poor ownership= Check!

Dolan is one of the worst owners in sports. He owns two teams and both are terrible. He cares way more about the building( which the renovation is amazing in all fairness to him.) at this point.

Lack of funds- ok Rangers have unlimited funds.

No direction- You argue the Rangers have a clear direction- “just be bad”. My argument is the direction should always be let’s be good. Seems like a no direction situation to me!

Bad development system- Check times 100! Hartford is a disaster and the Rangers are rushing players into the NHL!! I watched Lias’ interview during last nights game. He looked completely dejected! Like destroyed mentally!! That’s HORRIBLE for a players development! Sounds like a poor development system to me!

No continuity- Check again! The Rangers have about 5 guys from when they made a cup run in 2014 still on the roster. The shuttle between Hartford and the NHL has never been more active. They’ve skated over 30 players on the NHL roster this year, about the same last year and seem to have a very small core in place. They’ve gone through 2 coaches, 4 assistants 2 GM’s and that’s only what I know of!

A history of getting destroyed in trades- TBD. The McD trade when he became a Ranger for Scott Gomez several years ago was tremendous for the Rangers and Gordon has made some nice ones so far. The latest McD trade where they sent him away may be a fleecing but again not a difinitive check.

Completely whiffing on top 3 picks- TBD but the track record is leaning towards another check for the Rangers! Lias looks terrible and he was a top 10 pick! I’d also argue that teams like Edmonton and Buffalo have not totally whiffed and Ottawa has drafted pretty well!

Little to no free agent attraction- once again Check for the Rangers! No one will want to come to this dumpster fire right now. Plus the free agents the Rangers have actively pursued and signed, Kevin Shatenkirk namely, have been terrible signings. The lure of New York seems to be a thing of the past and may work against the Rangers. The team will have to overpay to get talent and that will be even worse!

So for all those distinctions you think set the Rangers apart I’d argue are not actually aspects that set them apart at all!

 

[Ola]

Gilmour had some jitters but picked it up as the game went on.

Best type of game from my POV. Played better than the other team, had the puck a lot, and we didn’t get any points.

Keep playing Hank, he is in on the Tank. Thought most guys played well in relation to their capacity.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

This is exactly my point! I’ve been slaughtered on here for saying the same thing though so you better be ready to get blasted! Thanks for speaking up though!

Truth is, I’m not even a huge fan of Panarin or Karlson. The concept though that this team has to be horrendous is just so over blown. The point of rebuilds is to get assets. The Rangers can’t just I’ve in this mindset of “let’s be bad.” Being bad is the easy part of the rebuild. At some point they will need to start taking action in order to move the roster in the “ let’s be good” direction.

LOL are you really whining about how get almost universally slaughtered instead of taking a look at yourself and wondering if maybe it's just you?

You are consistently someone who posts like the sky is falling. You're boisterous, aggressive and borderline obnoxious with a lot of your posts.

Everyone knows the rebuild sucks. Very few people consistently whine and cry the way you do as if we're in this horrible death spiral that will never, ever end. Very few make definitive statements about 19 and 20 year old rookies who are playing on a team without top talent to guide and shelter them. YOU do. That's why you get slaughtered here. Just because you have mixed in a few tiny golden nuggets of truth (which are usually just common sense) doesn't mitigate the fact that you consistently bury them under a mound of verbal diarrhea. This is not a place that is full of calm, rational minded, level headed individuals. Yet even amongst a bunch of fanatics you stand out in a negative way. When everyone says it's you...it's usually you

 

[JHS]

LOL are you really whining about how get almost universally slaughtered instead of taking a look at yourself and wondering if maybe it's just you?

You are consistently someone who posts like the sky is falling. You're boisterous, aggressive and borderline obnoxious with a lot of your posts.

Everyone knows the rebuild sucks. Very few people consistently whine and cry the way you do as if we're in this horrible death spiral that will never, ever end. Very few make definitive statements about 19 and 20 year old rookies who are playing on a team without top talent to guide and shelter them. YOU do. That's why you get slaughtered here. Just because you have mixed in a few tiny golden nuggets of truth (which are usually just common sense) doesn't mitigate the fact that you consistently bury them under a mound of verbal diarrhea. This is not a place that is full of calm, rational minded, level headed individuals. Yet even amongst a bunch of fanatics you stand out in a negative way. When everyone says it's you...it's usually you

The thing is I don’t care that I get slaughtered here. Literally means nothing to me. I offer a counter perspective to the rebuild. People don’t always like to read the opposite to the way they think or feel about things. That’s cool- don’t read it. The point is, blind loyalty to this “ rebuilds work by being horrible” are not accurate.

Personal attacks on me are not really required. It’s a hockey forum filled with healthy debate. My style is to tell it like I see it. If that comes across the way you suggest than I’m not sure what to say. Consider me an alarmist— that’s probably true. I do see a need for concern!

My definitive statements on 20 year olds are not definitive! You’ll never see me say these guys are busts! They are not— I’m commenting on their current performance andim most outspoken against Lias but not because I know he will be a bust( I don’t) but because I think his pick reflects just how miss guided this management team is!

Listen, this is not about me. I’m happy to have hockey talk. I’m happy to be the whipping boy if that’s what it takes to add perspective!