RickChartraw
Registered User
- Oct 12, 2018
- 3,456
- 4,062
I raise with a Brandon Halverson.
Speculation: Rangers Head Coach Search (Laviolette being finalized? According to Vince and Friedman)
- Thread starter EdJovanovski
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effen
Registered User
- Jun 27, 2003
- 12,724
- 10,911
Jack Drury gets blown up worse than Hajek and is gonna eat through a straw when he's 30.
He's a bum who's gonna get himself early onset Alzheimer's.
Mandar
The Real Maven
Not really a high bar there
Kaapo Cabana
Next name: Admiral Kakkbar
Kravtsovs NHL resume is barely better than mine
EdJovanovski
#FreeRempe
n8
WAAAAAAA!!!
The best we could have done with redrafting Kravtsov would be Bouchard, Dobson, Dellandrea, or Farabee.
The best would could have done with redrafting Lindbom would Drury, Fehervary, Durzi, or Addison.
Lias on the other had, we could have Vilardi, Necas, Suzuki, or Thomas. that one hurts way more than the 2018 flubs.
Halverson (59oa) in 2014 hurts because we could have had Point (79oa) but it's too 20/20 because 20 other teams also passed on Point after us. Columbus picked 76 and 77 and 78oa was Sorokin so their flubs have to hurt waa more. Foegele, Merzlikins or Sorokin would have been the next best redrafts at 59. Imagine if we got both Sorokin and Shesterkin in the same draft.
The best would could have done with redrafting Lindbom would Drury, Fehervary, Durzi, or Addison.
Lias on the other had, we could have Vilardi, Necas, Suzuki, or Thomas. that one hurts way more than the 2018 flubs.
Halverson (59oa) in 2014 hurts because we could have had Point (79oa) but it's too 20/20 because 20 other teams also passed on Point after us. Columbus picked 76 and 77 and 78oa was Sorokin so their flubs have to hurt waa more. Foegele, Merzlikins or Sorokin would have been the next best redrafts at 59. Imagine if we got both Sorokin and Shesterkin in the same draft.
Lets take this in the other direction with other teams.
Habs passed on Chris Kreider for Louie Leblanc in 2009
Flames passed on JT Miller for Sven Baertschi in 2011
Yotes passed on Brady Skjei for Henrik Samuelsson in 2012 draft
Islanders passed on Lindholm, Reilly,and Dumba for Griffin Reinhart in 2012
Sharks passed on K’Andre Miller for Ryan Merkley in 2018
It does get worse for Rangers:
Rangers passed on Brent Pesce for Adam Tambelini in 2013
Rangers passed on Roope Hintz, Jordan Greenway for Ryan BUST Gropp in 2015
Rangers passed on most of the 2017 draft for Lias Anderssson thanks Will Cuylle in 2017
When will Bettman make his decision on Quenneville and Bowman? There is no timetable on when Bettman will make his decision and what the decision will be.
The draft is such a crapshoot: it is the same in every sport. You can analyze, evaluate, interview all you want. You can do testing, heck even check the genetics of parents...and you still will not come up with a foolproof method of guaranteeing success with 18 year olds.
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. When you draft wrong, as the Rangers did with LA and VK, it can set a franchise back for years.
Sometimes you are in the fortunate position of drafting high when there are potential generational or franchise greats available, other years you are unfortunate and the talent level is lower.
Every team has players they drafted in the middle or bottom of the first round, or even in the second or third round who overachieve and become top players. Every team has players who they drafted high but never live up to expectations.
You can never predict injuries or sometime even a players genetic propensity for injury as they age.
Some teams seem to do better than others. Is is skill or just luck? I don't know and honestly, given the history of the draft, not only in the NHL, but in MLB, NFL, and NBA, I don't think anyone else does either.
Frustrating, especially when, after all the effort put into scouting, you still choose wrong.
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. When you draft wrong, as the Rangers did with LA and VK, it can set a franchise back for years.
Sometimes you are in the fortunate position of drafting high when there are potential generational or franchise greats available, other years you are unfortunate and the talent level is lower.
Every team has players they drafted in the middle or bottom of the first round, or even in the second or third round who overachieve and become top players. Every team has players who they drafted high but never live up to expectations.
You can never predict injuries or sometime even a players genetic propensity for injury as they age.
Some teams seem to do better than others. Is is skill or just luck? I don't know and honestly, given the history of the draft, not only in the NHL, but in MLB, NFL, and NBA, I don't think anyone else does either.
Frustrating, especially when, after all the effort put into scouting, you still choose wrong.
haohmaru
boomshakalaka
Paulie Walnutz
HFNYR JUST AS SOFT AS NYR
- Oct 1, 2008
- 11,133
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While I agree with what you’re saying the Rangers always seem to “point 7 out” or roll 2-3-12’s on the come on roll” in this crapshoot.
Shesterkybomb
Registered User
- Dec 30, 2016
- 17,638
- 19,321
I really hope they were waiting on Roy, it's possible with Drury having been a former teamate.
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
- Sep 29, 2011
- 17,177
- 9,182
People just don't understand. Krav was so fast and skilled that he played at a matrix level. He actually scored 40 goals in limited time but he did it at such a speed that it was not visible to 99.9% of fans, coaches or refs. Only a very tiny segment of fans were able to see Krav scoring and then politely taking the puck out of the net so he didn't embarrass the other team's goalie.
I agree, but is their failure any worse than others?
And, we do seem to have success drafting later in the first round. Both Miller and Schneider would be top 10 picks in a redraft. Possibly Chtyl too. JT Miller and Brady Skjei have had successful NHL careers.
And, although it was 14 years ago, we can't forget Kreider, drafter at 19 or even further, Staal at 12 (I can't believe how different he looks now....I did a double take at his introduction last night).
People always point to things like the Bruins drafting Bergeron in the second round and praising their ability to evaluate talent. But, you know, they missed on him also. If they felt that he would have turned into the HOF player he has been, they would have drafted him in the first round (Mark Stuart was a solid NHL Dman but not anywhere near the player Bergeron became).
Again, I agree, our drafting philosophy has often left me shaking my head, not understanding what the heck they are doing. I do think their philosophy needs to change. But change doesn't guarantee success, not when you're dealing with human beings.
TopShelfSnipes
Ella Shelton > Ryan Lindgren + it's not even close
The problem I have with the Rangers drafting record is that there really isn't a single elite forward in the going on 60 year history of the NHL draft the Rangers have taken who has burst onto the scene relatively quickly (aka not Kreider scoring 52 after a decade and never reaching point per game status), been elite, played a significant majority of his career - including his prime with the Rangers, and gone on to be measured as "elite" defined as making the Hockey Hall of Fame.
It's always defenseman and goalies, and for a team that has pretty much lost 99% of its playoff series losses over the past 18 years for the same reason - lack of goal scoring - it's extremely frustrating to watch over and over again.
I posted this in another thread, but it's relevant here:
There are 294 players in the Hall of Fame.
102 were inducted in or after 1990.
After not counting women's players or Russian players who never played in the NHL, or players whose last game in the NHL was before 1980, that leaves 81 players.
51 of the 81 were forwards, or predominantly forwards.
13 of the 51 HoF forwards played for the Rangers at some point in their career - most did so towards the end.
Anyone want to guess how many were home grown?
Zero.
Here's the list of the 13:
St. Louis
Shanahan
Robitaille
Nedomansky
Messier
Lindros
LaFontaine
Kurri
Gretzky
Gartner
Dionne
Bure
Glenn Anderson
When a forward prospect busts in an organization that developed elite forward talent in the past, that prospect is very clearly a bust.
When a forward prospect busts in an organization that has not developed elite forward talent in
LORDE
I am Lorde, YA YA YA
Sometimes there are clear cut better players available, but we have the smartest guys in the room every draft (laf & kakko aside obv).
It's infuriating.
McIlrath instead of Tank cost us & HANK a Cup. No doubt in my mind.
They're NOT the smartest in the room. They're the suckers.
I really don't get these dumb posts. Like all we need is the right coach to get guys to play. Sure. Why do we need to piss CK off. All he has done is score 90 goals the last 2 years and btw he was probably our best forward in the playoffs. The amount of venom posters throw at this guy is ridiculous. You know what is ten times worse. Guys like Laf and Chytil taking half the season off and snoozing through games. For young guys their drive and attitude suck. I wish and defensive assignment these guys missed during the season.
HFsNumber1Heel
FKA Roo Returns...Still A Contrarian Apparently
It's a root cause issue that instead of buyout or firing coaches with 2-3 years on their contract the Rangers can easily fix.
They don't want to or the people running the show are too dumb to figure it out. You combine themes and data based on why people have busted and draft strategy of the past.
There are very bright people who make 1/5 of what some of these NHL execs and coaches do and do this for a living for publicly traded orgs and regulators.
A lot of it falls on Dolan. He got into business because of nepotism. I highly doubt he can explain Internal Controls, Root Cause, or Data-Driven Analytics.
Some of it is simple common sense. You have issue drafting centers, how many have you drafted, how many did you miss on that were successful after, what are the statistically successful attributes based on regression models, vector, themes. It's not rocket science.
You need intelligent people running a hockey org. John Cooper who many consider smug and arrogant (I tend to think the opposite), he was a lawyer. Lou Lamoriello, we know he's 80 and we can all make fun of some of his post-reboot (2005-06) deals, however he was a math teacher and has experience as an athletics director and commissioner.
I'm not saying Drury isn't an intelligent guy but what has he done in comparison? Score a goal because Michael Nylander was on the ice after an icing instead of Blair Betts? Opened a pizzeria?
haohmaru
boomshakalaka
Taking this a step further - the Rangers haven't drafted a single forward that's gone on to the hall of fame. Ever. And this is 60+ years of drafting.
I mean, you look at the cream of the crop - Amonte, Weight, Middleton, Savard, Kovalev, etc... and they were barely, if ever, even all stars. Kovalev once. Middleton once. Weight, Amonte, Middleton? Nope, nope, and nope.
It's really quite remarkable. Particularly at center.
TopShelfSnipes
Ella Shelton > Ryan Lindgren + it's not even close
McIlrath instead of Tarasenko annoyed me so much and is one of the reasons I was thrilled to see him acquired. It was righting a historical wrong, filled our biggest need (a sniper), and we could have been watching him rip wrist shots from all over the ice for the past decade instead of watching McIlrath fight a handful of times in a handful of games and whatever AHL forward the Rangers called up to round out the forward group instead when everyone else had to play up because of the lack of winger scoring.
And then of course our galaxy brained former coach buried Tarasenko on the depth chart to the point he was barely playing until the playoffs, all so Patrick Kane's ailing hip could play 18 minutes a night when Kane was supposed to be the complementary piece and Tarasenko was supposed to be the deadline prize. In spite of it all, Tarasenko played very good two-way, 200 foot hockey, was one of the team's best backcheckers, and one of the only forwards who was consistently a threat at even strength against the Devils.
TBH I still kind of hope they can find a way to keep him, unlikely as it may be, because there's still a giant hole at RW in the top 6. Kakko in one of those spots should be a given but with the grumblings supposedly out of Laf's camp about being asked to try RW again (although I don't think he was truly given enough time there last year), and the complete and utter lack of anyone else in the org to potentially play RW, I still think it's going to be a problem spot unless Tarasenko comes back or Laf decides to try it again and whoever our coach is actually decides to give him a very long look at it instead of <10 games.
If Jimmy Vesey is playing in the top 6 again next season, there is a 50% chance I'm one with this org until they can Drury and anything else that even has the stench of Glen Sather's cigar smoke on it. I'm sick of watching this team squander windows and trade talented young players who miraculously figure it out elsewhere, while bleating on and on about the "Ranger way." Given the track record of this franchise, the "Ranger way" is not something to celebrate or talk about bringing your young players into...it's someting to toss in the garbage, dump a bunch of tannerite on top of, step back, fire a 152mm high explosive anti tank round at, then after the blast has cleared, go back in a hazmat suit and bleach the scorched earth for good measure until every last trace of it is gone for good. And then maybe look at what other successful NHL franchises have done for the last 30 years and try to maybe do some of the same things for once.
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
- Sep 29, 2011
- 17,177
- 9,182
I find it very hard to believe Rick Middleton was only an all star one time. He scored 40-50 goals almost every season in his prime. Guys like Ratelle, Gilbert, and Bathgate came before the current draft but still started as Rangers.
TopShelfSnipes
Ella Shelton > Ryan Lindgren + it's not even close
I wouldn't have counted Middleton anyway since he's the perfect example of a Ranger prospect that actually does pan out. Comes to New York, plays a couple of seasons, shows a ton of promise but doesn't reach it, immediately gets traded for a veteran player who's best years are behind him. Goes onto take next step with other team and become a damn good player, veteran flames out with Rangers and produces absolutely nothing of note. It's Sergei Zubov for what eventually ended up being Kevin Stevens after the two worst seasons of Luc Robitaille's NHL career before he became an All-Star again in LA. It's Buchnevich/JT Miller if they actually sustain their current level of production, post-Rangers, for the next decade plus.
As for Gilbert/Ratelle, they were great players, but it's serious cope to use them in defense of this organization's history. Imagine if the Red Wings never had any of their dynasty years, and had a similar record of utter futility in the draft era - Yzerman got drafted by the North Stars and the Wings took Lawton, Fedorov decided he wanted to play his whole career in Russia, etc...and the rebuttal was, remember Ted Lindsay and Gordie Howe?
The Rangers' drafting and development has been broken for a very long time, and it really, really, needs to fixed. Coaches have been part of the problem over the years, but the problems do run deeper.
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