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Speculation: Rangers Head Coach Search (Laviolette being finalized? According to Vince and Friedman)

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NickyFotiu said:
I find it very hard to believe Rick Middleton was only an all star one time. He scored 40-50 goals almost every season in his prime. Guys like Ratelle, Gilbert, and Bathgate came before the current draft but still started as Rangers.
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Yeah, I’m going back to expansion ‘67 when drafting was finally fair. As to Middleton, look it up. I’m fairly stunned that weight and amonte were never all stars. Crazy.
 
haohmaru said:
Yeah, I’m going back to expansion ‘67 when drafting was finally fair. As to Middleton, look it up. I’m fairly stunned that weight and amonte were never all stars. Crazy.
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Amonte was a 5 time All-Star.

Are you sure that was about All-Star game selections and not first/second NHL-All Star Team selections?
 
TopShelfSnipes said:
I wouldn't have counted Middleton anyway since he's the perfect example of a Ranger prospect that actually does pan out. Comes to New York, plays a couple of seasons, shows a ton of promise but doesn't reach it, immediately gets traded for a veteran player who's best years are behind him. Goes onto take next step with other team and become a damn good player, veteran flames out with Rangers and produces absolutely nothing of note. It's Sergei Zubov for what eventually ended up being Kevin Stevens after the two worst seasons of Luc Robitaille's NHL career before he became an All-Star again in LA. It's Buchnevich/JT Miller if they actually sustain their current level of production, post-Rangers, for the next decade plus.

As for Gilbert/Ratelle, they were great players, but it's serious cope to use them in defense of this organization's history. Imagine if the Red Wings never had any of their dynasty years, and had a similar record of utter futility in the draft era - Yzerman got drafted by the North Stars and the Wings took Lawton, Fedorov decided he wanted to play his whole career in Russia, etc...and the rebuttal was, remember Ted Lindsay and Gordie Howe?

The Rangers' drafting and development has been broken for a very long time, and it really, really, needs to fixed. Coaches have been part of the problem over the years, but the problems do run deeper.
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There was a lot going on with Middleton in NY. Apparently the media really didn't like him. Ferguson felt pressure to make a mark. Esposito would begin his time associated with the club which resulted in one Cup Final appearance and a lot of politicking and bad influence and "yeah but..." it was ok because he was funny as a GM making trades every week and had a NY marketable last name. I don't really count the time they made to the Conference Finals or Semi Finals as it was known in back then in 1981 or the time they went to the ECF in 1986 when he was a commentator. The first time he retired mid-season, the second he was a decent commentator who gave Reijo Ruiotsoulainen a lot of crap (in case anyone here hasn't realized it yet I really don't like Phil Esposito at all lol and I think he gets too much of a break).

Patrick was pretty good at drafting. The issue for him was a lot of those players were in the NCAA and became pros about 2-3 years after he left the organization.

Neil Smith did some really nice work even later into his tenure. He had no patience and kept trying to win now, and Sather to send a message or put his stamp on the team got ride of a lot of those prospects.

I'd say Clark did some pretty good work in the late 2000s (not perfect but good) and 2011-2013. After that, especially 2015, terrible.
 
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TopShelfSnipes said:
I wouldn't have counted Middleton anyway since he's the perfect example of a Ranger prospect that actually does pan out. Comes to New York, plays a couple of seasons, shows a ton of promise but doesn't reach it, immediately gets traded for a veteran player who's best years are behind him. Goes onto take next step with other team and become a damn good player, veteran flames out with Rangers and produces absolutely nothing of note. It's Sergei Zubov for what eventually ended up being Kevin Stevens after the two worst seasons of Luc Robitaille's NHL career before he became an All-Star again in LA. It's Buchnevich/JT Miller if they actually sustain their current level of production, post-Rangers, for the next decade plus.

As for Gilbert/Ratelle, they were great players, but it's serious cope to use them in defense of this organization's history. Imagine if the Red Wings never had any of their dynasty years, and had a similar record of utter futility in the draft era - Yzerman got drafted by the North Stars and the Wings took Lawton, Fedorov decided he wanted to play his whole career in Russia, etc...and the rebuttal was, remember Ted Lindsay and Gordie Howe?

The Rangers' drafting and development has been broken for a very long time, and it really, really, needs to fixed. Coaches have been part of the problem over the years, but the problems do run deeper.
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I don't think it needs defending few teams GMs and draft personal last decades. Drury and his team should only be judged on their records not 20-60 years ago.
 
haohmaru said:
Yeah, I’m going back to expansion ‘67 when drafting was finally fair. As to Middleton, look it up. I’m fairly stunned that weight and amonte were never all stars. Crazy.
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I don't think your all star stats are accurate. I just looked. Middleton made 3. Weight made 4. Amonte made 5.
 
NickyFotiu said:
Same ste says all star

Those are post season writer awards. They did play in the all star games.
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I didn't say that they didn't. I just said they weren't 1st or 2nd team. If you look at the site (top) for, let's say Middleton, it says "1x AS" because he was on the first or 2nd team once.

Ovechkin, for example, played in 17 all star games but is listed as a 12x AS.

It's a measure of "greatness" and we were having a HOF conversation. How many Ranger forwards that the Rangers drafted have been a 1st or 2nd team all star?

Not many. If any.
 
haohmaru said:
I didn't say that they didn't. I just said they weren't 1st or 2nd team. If you look at the site (top) for, let's say Middleton, it says "1x AS" because he was on the first or 2nd team once.

Ovechkin, for example, played in 17 all star games but is listed as a 12x AS.

It's a measure of "greatness" and we were having a HOF conversation. How many Ranger forwards that the Rangers drafted have been a 1st or 2nd team all star?

Not many. If any.
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I believe the first post I replied to said all star which to most people means all-star game. It didn't say first or second team all nhl which is a after season writers award.
 
Maybe someone can do a deep dive on this: in the last 60 or so years, how many HOF forwards have been drafted after the Rangers made their first round selections? It's easy to say that we have not drafted any HOF forwards, and believe me I find that just as frustrating as anyone else, but can someone actually look at the names so that we just not all blowing smoke?
 
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NickyFotiu said:
I believe the first post I replied to said all star which to most people means all-star game. It didn't say first or second team all nhl which is a after season writers award.
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The first post said "NHL All Stars"

You're talking about the NHL All Star GAME

I'm talking about the NHL All Star TEAM which has a 1st and 2nd team of the best of the best in the NHL and that's what it's called. It's not called "seasons writers award".

Here's the wiki: NHL All-Star team - Wikipedia
 
alkurtz said:
Maybe someone can do a deep dive on this: in the last 60 or so years, how many HOF forwards have been drafted after the Rangers made their first round selections? It's easy to say that we have not drafted any HOF forwards, and believe me I find that just as frustrating as anyone else, but can someone actually look at the names so that we just not all blowing smoke?
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I mean, quite a few I would think. Robataille, Zetterberg, Hull (Brett), Gilmour, Datsyuk, Pavelski (would think he's going to get in), Federov, Lidstrom, Messier (3rd round lol), Recchi, etc...
 
haohmaru said:
The first post said "NHL All Stars"

You're talking about the NHL All Star GAME

I'm talking about the NHL All Star TEAM which has a 1st and 2nd team of the best of the best in the NHL and that's what it's called. It's not called "seasons writers award".

Here's the wiki: NHL All-Star team - Wikipedia
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No sense beating this dead horse but the post I replied to said, "and they were barely, if ever, even all stars."
 
huerter said:
Our last coach was one for the fans, this one is for Drury.

Can anyone answer my question I posed a little while ago...when Oshie was out of the lineup, who would play the bumper on PP1?
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Wilson, then Sheary when Wilson was injured
 
alkurtz said:
Maybe someone can do a deep dive on this: in the last 60 or so years, how many HOF forwards have been drafted after the Rangers made their first round selections? It's easy to say that we have not drafted any HOF forwards, and believe me I find that just as frustrating as anyone else, but can someone actually look at the names so that we just not all blowing smoke?
Click to expand...
I will do this, but first 2 quick comments - what you're asking for looks at this strictly as a scouting/drafting problem, whereas those of us who criticize this organization's track record of developing forwards also believe the development aspect (post-draft preparation for a key scoring role) is important.

Also, it ignores the trading of higher picks for veterans and over-the-hill players which would render the below moot if a pick that could've been a HoFer was traded for a veteran instead. I have some free time right now but not enough to research every traded NYR pick in history to see where it would've been.

That said:

(This just concerns forwards - pretending D and goalies don't exist)
1963: Forward drafted by NYR played 0 combined NHL games. 0 HoF forwards available at time of NYR picks.
1964: Rangers draftees of note: Tim Eccleston, Syl Apps. Apps did most of his production with Pittsburgh. 0 HoF forwards available at time of NYR picks.
1965: Rangers draftees of note: None. This entire draft is unmemorable.
1966: Rangers take D Brad Park in the first round. Only forward draftee of note: Don Luce. Not counting the fine Park pick, no memorable forwards available at time of NYR picks.
1967: Rangers draftees played 0 NHL games. No other memorable forwards.
1968: Rangers draftees played 0 NHL games. No other memorable forwards.
1969: Rangers draft Andre Dupont and Pierre Jarry in the first round and pass on Bobby Clarke twice. No other HOF forwards.
1970: Rangers draft no one of note in this draft. All the elite players are gone before the NYR picks.
1971: Rangers draft Steve Vickers and Steve Durbano (LOL). No HoF forwards available at time of NYR picks.
1972: Rangers draft the only 1st rounder who never plays a game (Al Blanchard). No HoF forwards available but some good Fs available later (Nystrom, Al McAdam, Peter McNab)
1973: Rangers draft Middleton. No HoFers available at time of NYR pick.
1974: A rare decent NYR draft. D Dave Maloney first round, Greschner 2nd. Bryan Trottier went 2nd round ahead of Greschner. Charlie Simmer (non HOF) went 3rd round.
1975: Rangers draft Wayne Dillon in the first round. No HoFers available, but the Rangers picked John Corriveau who never played a game a spot ahead of Dave Taylor in the 15th.
1976: Rangers draft Don Murdoch. They pass on Bernie Federko who goes a spot later. Non HOF, but Kent Nilsson goes in the 4th.
1977: Rangers take Lucien DeBlois and Ron Duguay, passing on Mike Bossy twice.
1978: Rangers take Don Maloney in the 2nd round. No HoFers available.
1979: Rangers take Doug Sulliman in the 1st round, passing on (non-HOF) Brian Propp, but also Michel Goulet, +Mark Messier and Glenn Anderson (taking Ed Hospodar in Round 2).
1980: Rangers again take the only 1st rounder who never plays a game (Jim Malone). Jari Kurri + Bernie Nicholls are available until the 4th round. Non-HOF, Steve Larmer in the 6th.
1981: Rangers take James Patrick, so not counting this pick against available players. No real forwards of note available at time of NYR picks.
1982: Rangers take Chris Kontos one spot ahead of Dave Andreychuk. Doug Gilmour is available until the 7th round. Rangers at least draft Sandstrom and Granato.
1983: Rangers take Dave Gagner who of course is traded before his best years. No HoF available.
1984: Rangers take Terry Carkner 1st round. TUFFNESS! Brett Hull lasts until the 6th round, no Ranger pick before that besides Carkner plays 500 NHL games.
(NOTE: Non-HOF Cliff Ronning is available until the 7th, HOF Luc Robitaille until the 9th).
1985: Rangers take Ulf Dahlen. Joe Nieuwendyk goes 2nd round. Not counting Igor Larionov against NYR because Russian players couldn't legally play in the NHL yet.
1986: Leetch! Also notable for Turcotte in the 4th but NYR traded him to a dead end situation in HFD and he started getting hurt.
1987: Rangers draft Jay More in the first round, missing out on Joe Sakic. 2nd round they take Daniel Lacroix, missing out on non-HOF John LeClair.
(NOTE: Non-HOF Theo Fleury available until Round 8 - Rangers took Mike Sullivan and a bunch of guys who never played a game with their post-Lacroix picks)
1988: Rangers draft Troy Mallette in the 2nd round (and a guy named Murray Duval). Mark Recchi is available until the 4th and goes one spot ahead of NYR pick Amonte.
(NOTE: Again not counting Mogilny against NYR. Hell, if the Rangers drafted him, Russian players would probably still not be allowed to play in the NHL /sarcasm).
1989: Rangers draft Steven Rice. No non-Russian HoFers available. (Bure, Fedorov)
1990: Rangers draft 1 of 2 1st rounders to not play 1 NHL game (Michael Stewart). They pass on Keith Tkachuk.
(NOTE: Non-HOF but Weight in the 2nd - and Zubov - saves this draft, but of course Weight is traded before his peak too). Also of note Peter Bondra goes 8th round.
1991: Kovalev. Also traded before his peak. IMO great pick, but bad development of him.
1992: Rangers take Peter Ferraro. Not a notable draft.
1993: Rangers take Niklas Sundstrom. Some very good players in this draft but the only HOF forward (Kariya) was already gone.
1994: Rangers take Dan Cloutier. Also traded before his best years (for the Pavel Brendl pick!). Non-HOF, Patrik Elias went late 2nd, Milan Hejduk 4th. HOF Alfredsson in 6th.
1995: No NYR 1st round pick. They take Christian Dube in the 2nd. Passed on some decent players to pick Dube, but no one elite.
1996: Rangers take the other Jeff Brown, 1 of 2 players to never play NHL hockey. Passed on non HOF Danny Briere, no other real Fs of note.
1997: Rangers take Stefan Cherneski who gets injured, never plays. No one really of note available.
1998: Rangers take Manny Malhotra. Non-HOF, but Simon Gagne and Scott Gomez were available + Brad Richards goes 3rd round after the Rangers took another non-NHLer in RD2.
1999: Rangers take Brendl + Jamie Lundmark. Non-HOF, but Zetterberg is available until the 7th round. No one else really of note. The Sedins were gone already.
2000: Rangers don't pick until late 2nd. The options available were all irrelevant AF.
2001: Rangers draft Dan Blackburn. All the elite talent was gone already.
2002: Rangers draft Lee Falardeau in the 2nd round. 0 NHL games. No HoFers or elite talent available.
2003: JESSIMAN. Passed on (non-HOF) Parise, Getzlaf, Corey Perry, Loui Eriksson, Patrice Bergeron. Also non-HOF, Joe Pavelski available until the 7th.
2004: Rangers take Al Montoya. A few very good players (David Krejci) but no HOF players.
2005: Marc Staal. No one that memorable, and the Staal pick wasn't really bad so can't complain here.
2006: Bob Sanguinetti. Non-HOF but Claude Giroux goes one pick later. Brad Marchand goes 3rd round (after NYR picks Anisimov). No one else of note.
2007: RIP Alexei Cherepanov :( one of the picks I was most excited to see.
2008: Del Zotto. No memorable players available.
2009: Kreider. Not a bad pick at all but took forever for the team to give him a chance to live up to his potential. Should've been a regular by 2012-13.
2010: MCILRATH. Non-HOF but Tarasenko, Jaden Schwartz, Kuznetsov, all could've been had.
2011: JT Miller. Again traded before his peak.
2012: Skjei, not a bad pick given the talent available.
2013: Rangers didn't pick till the 3rd round and took Adam Tambellini.
2014: Rangers take Halverson late 2nd round. Non-HOF but Brayden Point was available.
2015: Rangers take Ryan Gropp. LOL. Kirill Kaprizov is available all the way until the 5th round and has put up some Kravtsov like numbers as a young kid in the KHL.
2016: Rangers don't pick till 3rd round and take Sean Day.
2017: Rangers take Chytil and slow play him the first 5 years of his career. Not even going to talk about their other first rounder, which could've been Necas or Suzuki.
2018: K'Andre solid pick, Lundkvist not. Rangers took Kravtov at #9 with Kaprizov like KHL numbers (see 2015). The best guys the Rangers passed on at #9 were all D.
2019/2020: Not going to comment on Kakko/Laf till we see what their careers look like or the Rangers (probably stupidly, if they do) trade them.

**Disclaimer: For active and recently retired players, I've arbitrarily determined their "HOF" and "non-HOF" status according to my own criteria of whether or not I think they will get in someday. This is very unscientific, and I might be wrong about some of those guys in the end, but it's a way to categorize active players according to the same standards as historical players, even if it makes me a one-man induction committee.**

So to summarize, it's as much about trading your top picks, and being irrationally drawn to players that aren't good, as well as not giving your young players a chance to develop as anything else. It's not that the Rangers' selections have been consistently horrible, it's that they don't give guys a chance to succeed here as an organization (as evidenced by the first round picks who never played a game, or all the guys that got traded and did well elsewhere). That to me is the bigger problem than their scouting.

But feel free to do with the above as you'd like. I realize it may look a little revisionist to say "OMG the Rangers passed on Doug Gilmour until the 6th round" when 20 other teams did also, but the point of this exercise was who "could" the Rangers have taken, not who "should" they have taken. The thing is, every other team in the league seems to be able to either find scoring late in the draft, or actually develop their highly touted top pick into the scoring role he was drafted for.

I was willing to give them a pass because of the relative few years where they chose top picks (and you could blame Lundmark/Brendl on bad draft years and small sample size) but after watching them slow play Kreider and now watching them slow play Chtyil, Laf, and Kakko, I really think the problems run deeper.

TL;DR - the Rangers suck hot ass at drafting and developing elite homegrown forwards.
 
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alkurtz said:
Maybe someone can do a deep dive on this: in the last 60 or so years, how many HOF forwards have been drafted after the Rangers made their first round selections? It's easy to say that we have not drafted any HOF forwards, and believe me I find that just as frustrating as anyone else, but can someone actually look at the names so that we just not all blowing smoke?
Click to expand...

I didn't go back 60 years because the pre-draft/zone/C-note stuff makes it all a bit difficult.
I did go back to the 1987 HHOF draft class where Bobby Clarke was voted in, this seems to be the first HHOF class with NHL Entry Draft personnel (happy to be told I'm wrong).

- Since 1987, removing women, 69 forwards have been placed in the HOF
- 11 of those were pre-draft personnel, including some Rangers
- 3 never played in the NHL and Sergei Makarov did not have an NHL HHOF career so I'm discounting him
- 1 was Wayne Gretzky
- a further 5 were undrafted, so we could have claimed at least a few (I didn't look at all WHA status)
- of the remaining 48, drafted forwards, we had a draft pick before 19 of them were selected

Bryan Trottier went at 22nd, we took Dave Maloney at 14
Michel Goulet went at 20, we took Doug Sulliman at 13
Jari Kurri went at 69, we took Jim Malone at 14 and Mike Allison at 35
Bernie Federko went at 7, we took Don Murdoch the pick before (6th)
Messier went at 48, we took Doug Sulliman (13th) and Ed Hospodor (34th)
Glenn Anderson went at 69, we took Doug Sulliman (13th) and Ed Hospodor (34th)
Igor Larianov went at 214, we took Ulf Dahlen at 7 and Mike Richter at 28
Brett Hull went at 117, we took Terry Carkner (14), Raimo Helmeinen (35), Paul Broton (77) and Clark Donatelli (98)
Luke Robitallie went at 171, we took Terry Carkner (14), Raimo Helmeinen (35), Paul Broton (77) and Clark Donatelli (98)
Goug Gilmour went at 134, we took Chris Kontos (15), Tomas Sandstrom (36) Corey Millen (57) and Chris Jensen (78)
Joe Nieuwendyk went at 27, we took Ulf Dahleen at 7
Pavel Bure went at 113, we took Steven Rice (20), Jason Profsky (40) and Rob Zamumer (45)
Joe Sakic went at 15, we took Jayson More at 10
Sergei Federov went at 74, we took Steven Rice (20), Jason Profsky (40) and Rob Zamumer (45)
Dave Andreychuck (who should not be in the Hall IMO) went 16th, we took Chris Kontos 15th
Mark Recchi went 67th, we took Troy Mallete at 22 (and Tony Amonte with the pick after Recchi)
Guy Carbonneu went at 44, we took Doug Sulliman (13th) and Ed Hospodor (34th)
Daniel Alfredsson went at 133, we took Dan Cloutier at 26

Sakic stands out as a huge miss, but a lot of the others were picked low enough that it seems was a crap-shoot even for the team that did draft them.
There's probably quite a few names on there too who would have had nice careers with the Rangers, but wouldn't have gone on to the Hall if they'd played here
 
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Mac n Gs said:
Roy just coached the Remparts to an historic season and a Memorial Cup. His tenure in Colorado was horrible, but the Remparts played way more structured under him.

I still prefer Leach, but I wouldn’t mind Roy if the alternatives are Hynes and Laviolette.
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His first year with Colorado was very good and he won the Jack Adams award. The next 2 years not so much. Maybe he learned things along the way and is ready for a return to the NHL. Like you I would rather see him instead of Lavy or Hynes.
 
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Mac n Gs said:
Roy just coached the Remparts to an historic season and a Memorial Cup. His tenure in Colorado was horrible, but the Remparts played way more structured under him.

I still prefer Leach, but I wouldn’t mind Roy if the alternatives are Hynes and Laviolette.
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Friedman thinks it’s between Hynes and Lav. Didn’t even mention Roy.

But Drury has been so tight lipped my guess is Roy is the last on the interview list.
 
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I'm on the Roy for two years and then backing up a Brinks truck full of money to Jon Cooper's house in Summer 2025 when his contract is up train myself.
 
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