GDT: Rangers 2019 Training Camp Thread: Part II

[kovazub94]

thoughts on the 2c spot...

there are ZERO good options...some options we might like better than others, but there are no good options to fill that role. none of the kids are ready and the vet options aren't that good.I don't think its much of a surprise that 2C will likely be the weak link on the team and a key reason why come april we will be watching the draft lottery and not the playoffs...and that is why IMO the important thing isn't Oct 3rd or even this season, the important thing is what is best for the development of the 3 kids in the long run...chytil, andersson and howden are hugely important to the future of this franchise, way beyond this season. so the key isn't just this year. its very easy to forget how young they are (especially chytil).

so none of them are really ready for that role...so if put into that role they will struggle and be over their head at times. the question though is will they be so overwhelmed that you'll kill their confidence and hurt their long term development (which is hard to say without knowing the kids and their mental make up)...or if you are willing to live thru the growing pains they will grow into the role.

if you think that it will hurt their long term development (most important thing) then strome at 2C is the right move. thats why he is still here to protect those 3 if they aren't ready....but on the flipside if we need to sit thru chytil struggling big time early in the year, but he improves and grows during the year and heading into next year he's a legit 2C then I look at that as a HUGE win.

A couple of things on 2C:

1. This is still a camp where things are tried that are not necessarily representative of how it will be for the regular season (I know you made a post about it). We also know that DQ uses roster shuffling to send a message. This might be a case with Chytil going to 3RW where Quinn simply wants him to give more effort to win back 2C. From the interviews we know it’s been a thing this camp.

2. All summer we talked about growing pains of kids earning important roster spots. This is it too. Whether now or later (of course we’d wish for later) Chytil was expected to be moved away from 2C to reset and then tried to do better and win it back. Growing pains.

3. I again do not see why some of you down on Strome. Yeah, unsustainable high scoring rate last year when he joined the Rangers blah blah blah. In the last game against the Isles he didn’t score but again I was perfectly satisfied with Strome’s game in all three zones the same way I liked his game last season once he got comfortable. To me he’s acceptable option to be a stop gap for 2C.

4. Agree with @eco's bones that we might see Panarin and Kreider switch sooner rather than later to improve lines depth whether 2C is Chytil or Strome (that give and go between Breadman and Strome was beautiful).

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

A couple of things.

1. We all know that the numbers you point out cannot be expected to hold up to form the basis of a comparison of a player getting tough minutes with a player getting easy minutes.

Girardi is the worst in the league ever according to those stats, then change team to Tampa and is much improved over night. Is there state tax on metrics too? Skjei and Smith are our best Ds when they play easy minutes on the 3rd pairing, then they are worthless when they get harder minutes.

I am not saying that the metrics aren’t telling, but I often buy them on a good/bad scale, not best/worst scale.

2. You say that you don’t get why the bar is set so low for this guy. I am not sure if we are talking about the same things here. I’ve been arguing for that Staal should be bought out all summer lol. It’s not like I am the director of his fan club.

But I think you will learn that — all fan bases — have a number of Ds they feel exactly the same about as we do about Staal.

Just saying that he is not horrible every night, not by the same standards we say that Hajak or guys like that had great games.

1. His numbers are pretty much equally bad against all competition. This has been pointed out a gazillion times on here.

2. True, but Staal is objectively worse than most if not all of those guys.

 

[egelband]

Personally, the big takeaway for me from training camp so far, is, Adam Fox is NHL-ready.

 

[Crease]

Personally, the big takeaway for me from training camp so far, is, Adam Fox is NHL-ready.

I had expected Kravtsov to slide in seamlessly and Fox to need AHL time. Go figure.

 

[egelband]

I think people are getting too caught up in training camp lines and lineups. I'm sure Quinn is testing the young guys, seeing how the react to being placed on different lines and in different. Kravtsov scores a goal last night and now there are whispers he may start in Hartford. I have a hard time believing that's a coincidence. I don't care what lines Howden, Lias, Chytil or Kravtsov are playing on. I just want to see the right players make the team out of camp. The rest will figure itself out during the course of the season.

I agree. Though I'd say it's about time Quinn started to optimize lineups and lines.

 

[offdacrossbar]

ryan strome has the pedigree to play the 2C

hes a former 1st rounder. hes got nhl size 6'1 200 and hes a righty. hes only 26.

what he does have is experience which happens to be exactly what all 3 of the young C's vying for that spot do not have. experience.

hes a vet although hes still young
hes talented. offensively, hes crafty and creative.
hes smart and understands the position


again, this isnt about strome being the best guy for the job. its about no one else being better than him for that job.

 

[haveandare]

A couple of things.

1. We all know that the numbers you point out cannot be expected to hold up to form the basis of a comparison of a player getting tough minutes with a player getting easy minutes.

Girardi is the worst in the league ever according to those stats, then change team to Tampa and is much improved over night. Is there state tax on metrics too? Skjei and Smith are our best Ds when they play easy minutes on the 3rd pairing, then they are worthless when they get harder minutes.

I am not saying that the metrics aren’t telling, but I often buy them on a good/bad scale, not best/worst scale.

2. You say that you don’t get why the bar is set so low for this guy. I am not sure if we are talking about the same things here. I’ve been arguing for that Staal should be bought out all summer lol. It’s not like I am the director of his fan club.

But I think you will learn that — all fan bases — have a number of Ds they feel exactly the same about as we do about Staal.

Just saying that he is not horrible every night, not by the same standards we say that Hajak or guys like that had great games.

Not getting into the Staal stuff in general but the issue with he as opposed to Skjei and Smith was that they were dominant in that one series while Staal was making lots of mistakes. People wanted them to be played over Staal in that series because they were “the hot hand.” The issue isn’t that they can’t play harder minutes, it’s that Smith has regressed to an astonishing degree. He and Skjei very likely wouldn’t dominate any competition today the way they did that series.

 

[haveandare]

ryan strome has the pedigree to play the 2C

hes a former 1st rounder. hes got nhl size 6'1 200 and hes a righty. hes only 26.

what he does have is experience which happens to be exactly what all 3 of the young C's vying for that spot do not have. experience.

hes a vet although hes still young
hes talented. offensively, hes crafty and creative.
hes smart and understands the position


again, this isnt about strome being the best guy for the job. its about no one else being better than him for that job.

“Just 26” isn’t much a thing in today’s NHL. That’s not a young player by today’s standards. That’s not bad, just saying.

Also unless I’m forgetting some spell of his, he has no experience being a successful 2C for any extended stretch. He has experience in the league but not at that level.

And I think the issue people are having is that we haven’t seen that nobody else is better then him for that job. The guy who was supposed to get the first crack at it didn’t see a game at it. Saying Chytil isn’t fit for 2C because he played C without those wingers in a game where he was maybe our best forward against an almost full Flyers team is kind of off base.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

I had expected Kravtsov to slide in seamlessly and Fox to need AHL time. Go figure.

It’s not like Kravtsov has been bad. He had a good game on Tueaday.

 

[Ola]

Not getting into the Staal stuff in general but the issue with he as opposed to Skjei and Smith was that they were dominant in that one series while Staal was making lots of mistakes. People wanted them to be played over Staal in that series because they were “the hot hand.” The issue isn’t that they can’t play harder minutes, it’s that Smith has regressed to an astonishing degree. He and Skjei very likely wouldn’t dominate any competition today the way they did that series.

I am not saying that there is nothing to the points you make, but in general its too often the Ds not getting the tough assignments that are the "hot hands" for it to be a coincidence.

But I don't think we really are disagreeing either. I am not making a big deal of it, I just don't think its really in line with reality that Staal is "horrible" every time he hit the ice. The job description for Ds is a tough one these days. Its not easy for anyone. Watch Trouba this year, its not like he will be perfect every minute on the ice for 82 games. Expect to see quite many gaffs.

 

[Trxjw]

ryan strome has the pedigree to play the 2C

hes a former 1st rounder. hes got nhl size 6'1 200 and hes a righty. hes only 26.

what he does have is experience which happens to be exactly what all 3 of the young C's vying for that spot do not have. experience.

hes a vet although hes still young
hes talented. offensively, hes crafty and creative.
hes smart and understands the position


again, this isnt about strome being the best guy for the job. its about no one else being better than him for that job.

Well said. I don't think it's a fools errand to think that Strome could have another level to get to. If he can be a reliable cog between two high-end wingers then that's good for everyone. Let Chtyil, Andersson, and Howden continue to develop at their own pace. If one of them can take over that spot? Great, but let's make sure they earn it instead of having it gifted to them.

 

[Ola]

It’s not like Kravtsov has been bad. He had a good game on Tueaday.

Definitely, but to put it like this, we all know that he is good enough already in many areas. Hence he can certainly make good plays and have good games in the NHL already. But, if we look at the areas we know he has to adopt and that we want to see rapid progress in -- in those areas I think you even can say that he has been bad. And like especially along the blue and red lines which we know that DQ is putting a lot of focus on already.

In his last game he had a play where he took the puck in the neutral zone heading towards his own net, then turned up ice while scanning off the surroundings, only to instantly end up in the lap of a defender who poke checked the puck away from Kravy and we got hit with a counter attack. In the NHL you just must be completely aware of what you are doing when you are holding onto the puck.

In the end, I think Kravy's camp reminds me a lot of Hayes' camp. I even think Kravy has been a bit better than Hayes was. And the later stuck, had some ups and down, but finished his rookie season really strong. I am sure Kravy could do the same. But OTOH we have so many moving parts this year, its a special season from that perspective.

 

[Ola]

1. His numbers are pretty much equally bad against all competition. This has been pointed out a gazillion times on here.

2. True, but Staal is objectively worse than most if not all of those guys.

But 2. is just nonsense. Girardi was objectively one of the worst ever, and he goes to Tampa and over night is much improved looking at it "objectively".

You can't pay attention to those metrics on an individual level like that. The margin of error is waaaaay to big. In many cases they don't hold up -- at all -- over time. Someone change team or is used in a new way and the player's metrical foot print can be significantly changed over night.

We have had som very weak metric units for several years now. It hasn't mattered much which players have been used on them.

 

[Trxjw]

I might be alone in this, but I wouldn't be completely opposed to Chytil, Andersson, and Kravtsov all going to the AHL to start the year. I don't see any of them as a "nothing left to learn there" prospect at this point.

 

[egelband]

I might be alone in this, but I wouldn't be completely opposed to Chytil, Andersson, and Kravtsov all going to the AHL to start the year. I don't see any of them as a "nothing left to learn there" prospect at this point.

For a short period to get their confidence roaring it could be good. But while I agree they haven't forced their way on to the parent club, I also don't think they have much left to prove in the AHL. A bit of a catch-22, for sure.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I agree. Though I'd say it's about time Quinn started to optimize lineups and lines.

I think he's in a tough spot. Higher expectations with lots of young players. He needs to balance winning games with developing all of these kids. If Chytil starts the year on wing but ends the year as the teams second line center, that's fine. We pretty much know Kakko and maybe even Kravtsov are top 6 players but if they spend the first month or two of the season figuring out where guys like Howden, Anderson and Chytil belong long term, I think that's ok too.

 

[Trxjw]

For a short period to get their confidence roaring it could be good. But while I agree they haven't forced their way on to the parent club, I also don't think they have much left to prove in the AHL. A bit of a catch-22, for sure.

I mean I don't think either Andersson or Chytil has gotten to the point where they're clearly too good for the AHL. I'd rather them go down for 20-25 games, make the case that they are too good for that league, and then they come up with a lot of confidence and a chip on their shoulder.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

But 2. is just nonsense. Girardi was objectively one of the worst ever, and he goes to Tampa and over night is much improved looking at it "objectively".

You can't pay attention to those metrics on an individual level like that. The margin of error is waaaaay to big. In many cases they don't hold up -- at all -- over time. Someone change team or is used in a new way and the player's metrical foot print can be significantly changed over night.

We have had som very weak metric units for several years now. It hasn't mattered much which players have been used on them.

raw metrics wise? Sure.

G was still a clusterf*** relative to his teammates though.

 

[Levitate]

But 2. is just nonsense. Girardi was objectively one of the worst ever, and he goes to Tampa and over night is much improved looking at it "objectively".

You can't pay attention to those metrics on an individual level like that. The margin of error is waaaaay to big. In many cases they don't hold up -- at all -- over time. Someone change team or is used in a new way and the player's metrical foot print can be significantly changed over night.

We have had som very weak metric units for several years now. It hasn't mattered much which players have been used on them.

Girardi was actually still bad in Tampa IIRC. Like, he had an initial bump that made everyone go lol see he's still good! And then he went back to having bad stats that dragged down his teammates.

And these stays also try to compensate for what you're saying (that a weak overall team makes certain players look worse) and that's the big point here. Within the boundaries of just the Rangers and the weaknesses they have, compared to his teammates, Staal isn't good.

 

[cwede]

I might be alone in this, but I wouldn't be completely opposed to Chytil, Andersson, and Kravtsov all going to the AHL to start the year. I don't see any of them as a "nothing left to learn there" prospect at this point.

...while I agree they haven't forced their way on to the parent club, I also don't think they have much left to prove in the AHL

I mean I don't think either Andersson or Chytil has gotten to the point where they're clearly too good for the AHL. I'd rather them go down for 20-25 games, make the case that they are too good for that league, and then they come up with a lot of confidence and a chip on their shoulder.

or Howden

there is no downside, no insult, no extreme discouragement to assigning very young guys to AHL team, for a few weeks or months

if i were making this roster, i lean towards Fil and Howden going down, despite their full seasons up last year

having them play top-line, all situation minutes for Knoblauch, IMHO, can only help them become proven NHL Fs

i expect Krav to get some HWP time,
and i won't even buy into idea that KK should never play some games down

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

so Reunanen was cut but he’s still here?

 

[Irishguy42]

so Reunanen was cut but he’s still here?

Hartford has a preseason home-and-home vs the Sound Tigers on Fri/Sat, in Hartford on Friday, Bridgeport on Saturday.

Rangers play NYI in Bridgeport on Saturday, so he's just chilling with NYR until they fly into Bridgeport.

 

[cwede]

...he's just chilling with NYR until they fly into Bridgeport.

8^) less than 45 miles from training facility to Webter arena

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Judging by that lineup, you can't say they're not giving Kravtsov every change to make an impression. He needs to force his way into the lineup, but the opportunity is there for him.

 

[Irishguy42]

8^) less than 45 miles from training facility to Webter arena

I thought they were in Philly tonight, but they aren't. Oh well.

I think they'd still fly. Puddle jumper