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OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Congrats to the Houston Cheaters on their win

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Really don't like this wrinkle, and I had a feeling something would change.

The deal as it was would have been ok, as it read as probably BC wanting MLB impact and Oviedo being the best he could do, with Nunez thrown in as a roster crunch guy. But adding Stratton is at best lateral in terms of the MLB improvement.
 
DJ Spinoza said:


Really don't like this wrinkle, and I had a feeling something would change.

The deal as it was would have been ok, as it read as probably BC wanting MLB impact and Oviedo being the best he could do, with Nunez thrown in as a roster crunch guy. But adding Stratton is at best lateral in terms of the MLB improvement.
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What?

You're bitching about Stratton being included? DJ, come on dude. He's a nothing player, blocking spots from younger, better upside arms. His ERA is over 5. WHIP 1.55 and he's 31.

This smacks of a deliberate about face to get you back to the "meh" return you lamented over.

Stratton is literally worth dick to us and hasn't performed well. Com on dude.

Including Stratton was literally a bum being included to open a spot on the 40 man for the reliever we got, who's 8 years younger, with a lot more upside.

Facts.
 
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Stratton is addition by subtraction.

93-94 MPH fastballs don't play unless they have exceptional movement or great secondary stuff.
Stratton has neither.

Unfortunately that's the nature of the MLB these days. Stratton's stuff would have probably been in the 75th percentile of RPs. Now it's like 25th.
 
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Clearing out Stratton gives Holderman a spot so I have no complaints there.

I also think it's worth wondering about Bednar's future with how many hard throwing relievers the Pirates have. Holderman, Oviedo, Yerry and Crowe looks good enough that you might be able to justify selling high on Bednar right now, especially if you can get a MLB ready reliever for him too.
 
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f*** that post bothers me.

Like how could anyone change their tune on a trade because of Chris f***ing Stratton?

I'd have certainly grumbled if it was Beede who actually has been legit good and is one of the few older guys who you could make a case for bringing back as a veteran pen guy....
 
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It's offical. Solid return. Got a Holderman like arm who just needs a little seasoning w/command but has electric stuff and a top 10 prospect (10th on MLBPL) power hitting 1B/DH, who's showing real pop as a 21 year old in AA.

For 2.5 months of Q. I'll take that every day of the week.

 
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I don't mind it horribly, but I don't think it's great roster management to just shuffle off veteran relievers in a down season. We got burned hard with Holmes, and Stratton has covered a solid amount of innings, with two fine seasons before this one. He's been a spin rate and metrics darling for a few years, so I'd just as soon hold onto him, especially over some other guys in the bullpen.

It's still pretty blah either way -- I think it's about on the upper end of what could be reasonably expected for two months of Quintana. Oviedo might be a longer play as a starter, which might be an intriguing idea, but he profiles as MRP. Nunez is more of a lotto ticket, but the combined value of both of them lines up fine. His road numbers are not very good, but he's young and with bat-only guys I think you just get a handful and hope one pops.

I also think you could repurpose Stratton for a flier in a different deal, similar to the change of scenery move we pulled off for Chavis last year. It's easy to just wave him away as being bad this season, but 1.5 seasons of a veteran isn't something to just shrug off.

I still think the ultimate test is what else is in the works either by tomorrow even or this winter. It's a good, but small, first step to get immediate supplementary players, but the team needs a lot more. Breaking into the prospect depth to try and get another starter like Plesac would be a further step in the right direction. The bigger pipe dream is paying for a couple of mid-tier free agents, but regardless, sitting around isn't going to cut it.
 
Next year's pen already looks a lot better on paper.

Bednar
Santos
Crowe
Holderman
Oviedo
Beede (guessing as his numbers, eye test give him a spot right now)

I'm fairly high on Toribio having seen him in AA earlier this year (he was spectacular) and has settled in very nicely at Indy, being just 22. They've been aggressive w/him and he's responding. Certainly in the mix to come out of the pen early next year.

Cam Alldred will probably get a look in September. He's had a nice year in AAA.

There are 2 guys to keep a real close eye on as far as AA goes. Tyler Samaniego and Tanaj Thomas. Sammy is a big lefty with upper 90's cheese and has been tearing through A+/AA ball this year. Was a 15th rounder in last years draft. Thomas a failed starter but seems to be taking to the pen role much better. Another guy with really fast stuff.
 
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Deliberately building the bullpen is definitely a step up over the sort of revolving door approach that we've taken under Cherington's early years. I see some very solid starts at AAA on Oviedo's resume along with a lot of washouts, but I wonder if we'll give him a few turns in the rotation eventually.

I think bagging it and taking the more surefire production as a bridge arm is ultimately the move, but he did throw over 110 innings last year and is at 75 now, with the recent months being pretty much exclusively in the MLB bullpen. The last time he started was a middling spot start in early June for the Cardinals, so he'd have to be stretched back out, but there's easily some opportunity for him, and he has the experience in the pen already, so it's not like we can't get some looks and then pivot back in the offseason.

Regardless, I think there's promise with the trio of Bednar, Crowe, and Holderman, and Oviedo and Beede both slot in fine. The bullpen seems to be so fickle that it's hard to do more than throw guys at it, but it's also the case that our bullpen has mostly been very bad and we've been involved in a fairly large number of close games.

We need offensive upgrades and we'll need some way to get more innings covered next year, though that's also a truism. I'd like a prospect trade for a starter, but that seems extraordinarily unlikely. The still unlikely but pertinent question I have for tomorrow is if we'll look for a change of scenery swap, as well as what happens with Newman I guess.
 
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Jerry, how have the Mets not traded for Newman? I don't understand it. I bet a guy at office $100 we'd have a subway series this year and Ben Charrington is going to ruin my payday. Can you believe it? I'm not even Yankees fan!
 
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@DJ Spinoza

Came off a bit hot there sir, my apologies.

I was happy to see you initially pretty OK with the trade, as it makes a lot of sense from or perspective. Q does nothing for us this year moving forward. There is always the chance we can circle back this winter and then the prospects are pure gravy.

Again, I want to highlight what these guys/trades represent. Progress from looking for quantity dart throws, generally lower level types, to established upper minor league players who in multiple cases already have some ML experience with good results.

This signals the next phase, which is consolidate talent near/at the top.

As you could tell, I was quite baffled at your pretty big swerve based solely on Stratton. The reality is he's got little/no control left (I didn't look, but he's been around for what 6-7 years) and this year has been a mess, especially as the year has gone on. He's 31. Nobody, with a straight face can say he's pitched even remotely close to Beede. Spin metrics be damned, the league ultimately is about results and Stratton has not been good.

Cherington was literally saying, yep, he's not in our plans, get him off the 40 man. We've got talent coming, ready in the wings, now.

Also, you should go look at Holmes, he was awful in July. We'll see how he fares as the season drags on but the wear and tear might have been getting to him. With that said, I don't think Stratton has Holmes stuff anyway.

Oviedo>Stratton just simply on age, and the fact he's already shown some ML success, albeit in a small sample.

Then you get a borderline top 10 prospect from a system that is known for being very good at scouting and developing. At a position we need a lot of production from.

I agree, that he's closer to a lotto ticket than expected plus regular, but there is clearly some real pop, though the hit tool will need to be ironed out as the splits are pretty bad IMO.

All in all, for a few months of a 3/4 starter, we can't honestly complain. And I have a weird hunch that Q will be back next year. Just a gut feeling.
 
ImporterExporter said:
Also to note, if true, this again highlights that we're pivoting away from low A dart throws and focusing on upper minor players who can help add depth to areas of need (in this case 1B and RP).
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I believe we're seeing BC filling holes to compete in 23. 1B needs help next year, and he seems to be assembling a Bullpen with some depth and serious potential.

I like these moves. Would be awesome to see them drop 25mil filling other holes in free agency this winter. 2023 was always going to be the 1st potentially competitive season under Cherington. I can't wait to see his other moves.

MrBrightside said:
I just look forward to Costanza and his crew lavishing praise on the trade no matter what the return.
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Think I could pull off a good Kramer? Yep, I'm Kramer.
 
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ImporterExporter said:
What?

You're bitching about Stratton being included? DJ, come on dude. He's a nothing player, blocking spots from younger, better upside arms. His ERA is over 5. WHIP 1.55 and he's 31.

This smacks of a deliberate about face to get you back to the "meh" return you lamented over.

Stratton is literally worth dick to us and hasn't performed well. Com on dude.

Including Stratton was literally a bum being included to open a spot on the 40 man for the reliever we got, who's 8 years younger, with a lot more upside.

Facts.
Click to expand...

We dumped Stratton on St. Louis, they had to take him as part of the deal. Saved another million for next year.
 
DJ Spinoza said:
I don't mind it horribly, but I don't think it's great roster management to just shuffle off veteran relievers in a down season. We got burned hard with Holmes, and Stratton has covered a solid amount of innings, with two fine seasons before this one. He's been a spin rate and metrics darling for a few years, so I'd just as soon hold onto him, especially over some other guys in the bullpen.

It's still pretty blah either way -- I think it's about on the upper end of what could be reasonably expected for two months of Quintana. Oviedo might be a longer play as a starter, which might be an intriguing idea, but he profiles as MRP. Nunez is more of a lotto ticket, but the combined value of both of them lines up fine. His road numbers are not very good, but he's young and with bat-only guys I think you just get a handful and hope one pops.

I also think you could repurpose Stratton for a flier in a different deal, similar to the change of scenery move we pulled off for Chavis last year. It's easy to just wave him away as being bad this season, but 1.5 seasons of a veteran isn't something to just shrug off.

I still think the ultimate test is what else is in the works either by tomorrow even or this winter. It's a good, but small, first step to get immediate supplementary players, but the team needs a lot more. Breaking into the prospect depth to try and get another starter like Plesac would be a further step in the right direction. The bigger pipe dream is paying for a couple of mid-tier free agents, but regardless, sitting around isn't going to cut it.
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Stratton turns 32 next week. This is when players like him fall off, and he did. And it would take what - 4 million to sign him next year? That sounds like a bad investment, and we don't need a guy like him what with all these young exciting arms BC's assembling in the Pen.
 
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ImporterExporter said:
Next year's pen already looks a lot better on paper.

Bednar
Santos
Crowe
Holderman
Oviedo
Beede (guessing as his numbers, eye test give him a spot right now)

I'm fairly high on Toribio having seen him in AA earlier this year (he was spectacular) and has settled in very nicely at Indy, being just 22. They've been aggressive w/him and he's responding. Certainly in the mix to come out of the pen early next year.

Cam Alldred will probably get a look in September. He's had a nice year in AAA.

There are 2 guys to keep a real close eye on as far as AA goes. Tyler Samaniego and Tanaj Thomas. Sammy is a big lefty with upper 90's cheese and has been tearing through A+/AA ball this year. Was a 15th rounder in last years draft. Thomas a failed starter but seems to be taking to the pen role much better. Another guy with really fast stuff.
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Toribio mos def has a shot next year, but the guy I'm fully expecting to see in Pittsburgh come summer is Tyler Samaniego. The Bucs are short a quality Lefty or two in the Bullpen and this guy is one of em' IMO.

Man I am really getting excited at what the bullpen could be up to this time next season.

You might want to slow down a bit on Tanaj Thomas as it appears that's what he's done.

In order to gain the necessary control he's had to get down to 92-93 on the fastball. Although it's possible he can make it still, I think it's less likely that pitch will play in the Majors.
 
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Pretty meh pitcher and and a blah reliever for two pretty meh prospects.

Sounds about exactly what anyone should have expected. And quite honestly more than anyone should have hoped for when we signed him
 
I'm good with this trade and hope a Bednar trade follows suit. If the loser of the Soto sweepstakes wants to pony up for Reynolds I'm down for that too
 
The way i look at it is if they get two good relievers (not just innings, like actually good relievers) out of stratton, Q and Vogelbach then thats a win.

As far as whats left to move, Gamel? Outside of a big deal for Bednar or Reynolds. Is that all thats left?

Edit: Forgot Newman and maybe a surprise thompson/keller/brubaker trade
 
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WheresRamziAbid said:
The way i look at it is if they get two good relievers (not just innings, like actually good relievers) out of stratton, Q and Vogelbach then thats a win.

As far as whats left to move, Gamel? Outside of a big deal for Bednar or Reynolds. Is that all thats left?

Edit: Forgot Newman and maybe a surprise thompson/keller/brubaker trade
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Nice summary, two good relievers with years of control for that bunch is mos def a win if it plays out.

But their not moving starting pitchers with 3-4 years of arbitration. Especially given that all 3 you listed have broken out to some extent this year.

Edit: Unless it was to get a high ceiling starter close or in the Bigs. Maybe then.
 
Have to figure that today is about maybe Newman and definitely the start of a 40-man roster churn that will continue into the offseason. There are some guys in the system like Burrows who will need to be added due to the Rule 5 being skipped last year (and he'll presumably be added for September spot starts if we get to that point). Just at a quick glance, between now and the offseason you have spots available for Marisnik, Allen, Tsutsugo, VanMeter, Park, Newman and I would imagine 4-5 pitchers in all likelihood.

I could see Allen surviving in order to get a longer look at him, and it's possible we don't trade Newman. What will be difficult to stomach is if VanMeter and Yoshi are still with the team tonight, much less playing. I am expecting at least the former, but it shouldn't be too hard to have planned for Marcano to arrive at the very least. With Gamel and Newman still very possibly going, there might be a little too much roster uncertainty to turn over the 26-man roster entirely today. We'll see.

I'm still hoping we'll see a surprise move to acquire a change of scenery candidate. Dom Smith is the perfect mix of possible upside, greatest need, and availability. He'll probably have multiple suitors but the price can't be that high and even if you want to be wildly optimistic that we'll try to sign somebody like Mancini along with pitching in the winter, Smith is a better candidate than internal options or VanMeter like spring training dumpster diving.

Andujar is annoying to hear about at this point but the Yankees seem set on trading him so he'll end up on one of the bad teams in the league. I still like the RH power, and I'm at the point of being ok with any signs of life in terms of change and chasing immediate impact.

I think ultimately, the over/under today is 1.5 trades and I wouldn't be that floored if we don't do any at all. Newman should have a landing spot and depth reasons dictate that you should do it, and I also think BC based on his actions is perfectly fine to tank the remainder of the season and try for as high of a pick as possible. I also think it might be possible that he'll try to trade a prospect for a prospect-- maybe somebody like Swaggerty for a similar guy or even a pitching prospect who has had some shine wear off. I think he could also really surprise and flip one of the pitchers. It doesn't line up with some of the other moves he's made, but I just have a weird feeling he might be shopping around and looking to make a bigger trade.

If I were able to totally call my shots in the style of MLB The Show, I'd pay a modest cost to get Dom Smith and then I'd see if the Royals might bite on something like Swaggerty+ or Peguero+ for Daniel Lynch.
 
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