OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Congrats to the Houston Cheaters on their win

  • Work is still on-going to rebuild the site styling and features. Please report any issues you may experience so we can look into it. Click Here for Updates
Status
Not open for further replies.
If the Phillies are willing to overpay in a deal for Quintana, then I really think Falter is the perfect target. The Phillies have some premium SP talent on the way, Wheeler for multiple years, Nola for another, and Suarez just hitting arbitration, so he might be expendable for short-term security.

The funny thing is, he sort of profiles in between the bullpen and rotation, and if they shore up the latter with Quintana or otherwise, then it makes sense for them to just stick him in the bullpen and see. Maybe a way to pry him away would be to include a reliever in a deal with Q, since that gives them a mid/back-end rotation guy and some help in the pen, where they need it.

I think their big target should probably be Ramon Laureano, though the trouble there is that if O'Hoppe is their main piece to try and dangle, Oakland is swimming in catchers and already probably shopping Murphy.

O'Hoppe would be a good get for Quintana to be sure, but his stock is going up so much that I'd be really surprised. He's more like the kind of headliner you might ask for in a Bednar trade. The Phillies also have a pretty decent looking catcher in AAA in Donny Sands, so maybe that's the kind of ask that makes sense for Quintana, or something like Quintana+ for Falter+Sands. That would give you two immediately contributors at important positions, but I'm not sure what the + would be.
If you assume that SF is a seller (or at least not a buyer), there are 7 teams for 6 spots in the NL. While it limits the field of buyers a bit it definitely could encourage teams in it to be more likely to go for it since they are more solidly in the mix and don't have the specter of a one-and-done.

It's funny how the two positive upbeat guys bringing the most info into the thread are the ones getting attacked and having to put people on Ignore.

People will be people.
Good lord. No one is attacking anyone, unless you count this patronizing "we're the only ones smart enough to understand what they are doing and not getting mad" shtick. People have different opinions. The fact some fan boys are so offended by negative comments that they choose to put people on ignore is your prerogative, but no one is "attacking" anyone. And really, there are plenty of others who bring as much or more info to this thread other than you and Costanza.
 
Good lord. No one is attacking anyone, unless you count this patronizing "we're the only ones smart enough to understand what they are doing and not getting mad" shtick. People have different opinions. The fact some fan boys are so offended by negative comments that they choose to put people on ignore is your prerogative, but no one is "attacking" anyone. And really, there are plenty of others who bring as much or more info to this thread other than you and Costanza.

Eh. Gallatin and I have taken plenty of potshots at each other.

Mostly I have informed him that while I appreciate his conversations with miscellaneous scouts and whatnot, that simply does not hold as much sway to me as actual verifiable success especially at the upper levels of the minors. I'm not big on subjectivity on a game that can be quantified as easily as baseball.

And also his "this guy's gonna make it cause he's obsessed" which I noticed was only applied to caucasian players haha.
 
Biertempfel's latest, such as it is:

Who could depart Tuesday?​

Kevin Newman might be playing his way out of Pittsburgh.

Since he came off the IL on July 8, Newman has hit .315 with eight doubles and six RBIs. He has made a seamless transition to second base, allowing Oneil Cruz to take over at shortstop.

“(Newman) is swinging the bat probably better than anybody on our club,” manager Derek Shelton said. “It’s nice to see some confidence there. It’s nice to see he’s sustaining the things he worked on prior to getting hurt.”

Newman, 28, is a career .260 hitter and last year was a Gold Glove finalist. He can play multiple positions. He has a knack for getting walk-off hits, can handle the leadoff spot and for a couple of seasons held the thankless job of batting in the No. 8 spot ahead of the pitcher. He has two more years of team control remaining.

A lot of contenders could use a guy like that. The Yankees already have looked him over. If the Pirates trade Newman, they could expect to get a decent (not elite) prospect in return.

Instead of fretting about the MLB trade deadline (6 p.m. ET on Tuesday), Newman simply keeps going about his business.

“As you get later in your career, you learn to separate the two,” Newman said. “When I was younger, it’s definitely something you think about. From my experience here, with these guys, we’ve done a really good job of keeping the outside noise outside. Showing up every day and continuing to work hard and get better. I think that’s what we’re going to continue to do.”

During his weekly radio show Sunday, general manager Ben Cherington lauded José Quintana’s bounce-back season. Cherington compared the veteran lefty to Tyler Anderson, whom the Pirates signed last year as a low-cost free agent, then flipped at the trade deadline.

Several teams are interested in Quintana — including the Phillies, who got a close look at him Friday. When Quintana was replaced after throwing 5 2/3 shutout innings, he got warm, extended applause from the crowd at PNC Park.

The fans know what’s up, and so does Quintana.

“It’s fun when you get ovations,” Quintana said. “It’s going to be a special memory for me.”

What about Wednesday?​

It’s a given the Pirates will make at least one or two trades. I am more intrigued by what might happen after the deadline passes, and I asked Cherington how much roster shuffling will occur later this week and beyond.

“I would expect we’ll have some changes,” Cherington said. “There are guys at (Triple-A Indianapolis) that we’d like to see here at some point. We don’t have a specific date in mind, but, yeah, it’s fair to say that, trades or no trades, probably see some changes. We want to create opportunities for some guys who are in Indy now, so we’ll see how that plays out.”

Jack Suwinski is batting .268 with four homers at Indy. Tucupita Marcano is riding a 10-game hitting streak and has posted back-to-back three-hit games. Marcano is batting .362 with a .933 OPS in 14 games since being optioned to Indy in early July.

Right-hander Roansy Contreras was sent down on July 7 to take a two-week breather. Pirates management is playing it safe with Contreras because of his forearm injury last summer.

Last Tuesday, Contreras threw two innings (35 pitches) for Indy. On Sunday, he went three innings (44 pitches) and allowed a run on four hits with five strikeouts against Toledo.

It likely will be at least a couple of weeks before Contreras is recalled. Cherington likened Contreras’ plan at Indy to a spring training buildup. “There is no magic number,” Cherington said. “The goal is to put Roansy in position where he’s making starts in the majors in September.”
 
  • Like
Reactions: td_ice
Nutting and Cherington are not mutually exclusive. That's the painfully obvious distinction that people are missing.

What in the hell would you like a GM who has no money to spend, do? Don't you dare say spend more. Cherington has zero control over that. He's operating on one of the bottom 3 payrolls in baseball. I've seen so many around here act and literally post, "if we just spent this, or spent that, or went after this big name".....Guess what. We ain't got the money and that has nothing to do with the GM.

Oh, and he DID extend Hayes, which apparently people have forgotten after clamoring for it for the past year plus. Now that Hayes is struggling, that little nugget is glossed over. If Hayes were tearing it up, you'd all be going what a great signing, we locked in a star, good on Ben....

I already pointed out the numerous budget FA signings that he got right, just this year alone. There is no denying it. But still, he's a bum.

He took a system that was well below average 2.5 years ago, and has turned into one that ranks in the top 5 across the board.

And how?

Taillon netted us Contreras. I don't care if any of the other guys do a damn thing. He got a legitimate upside starter for a guy that had cancer and TJ surgery, twice. But hey, bum because in year 3, we're losing a lot, which was expected.

He got Suwinski and Marcano for a few months of Frazier. How'd that work out for SD? We're looking at 2 guys with real upside as plus regulars. We can't honestly lose that trade given how bad Fraizer tanked after leaving.

People bitch about the Musgrove trade. We got an AS closer out of it. And Endy Rodriguez is probably going to end the year as a top 5 prospect and should be exciting everyone given what he's done since coming over. Sure, maybe we hold onto Joe longer and maybe he pitches better than he did for us, and maybe we get a better package, but the reality is, we got an actual AS at a key position and found a pretty damn good prospect to boot.

Sure as hell beats the Cole trade, but what the hell do I know, right? And Cole was a much better arm than Musgrove when dealt.

We pulled off an incredible draft haul last year, all of those high picks having success early on. Facts.

We got, on paper, the best bat in the draft this year. That's pretty much a consensus option from the experts.

No, most of our talent is not in the low minors. I saw that somewhere over the last 2 pages. That's a poor take.

Contreras, Marcano, Suwinski, Bae, Burrows, Priester, Davis, Gonzales, Peguero, Holderman, Toribio, Thomas, are all in AA/AAA right now. That means, hypothetically, any of those folks could be up full time by this time next year. Some of those guys will be up here in a few days.

Mitch Keller, who I am now looking stupid on, having called for him to be shot into the sun just 3 months ago, is progress, no? I'm not always right, and will admit it when warranted. Let's gloss over Keller's drastic improvement and what that means to 2023 and beyond.

Neal Huntington lost 105 games in his 3rd year. Were you all carrying pitchforks and rifles to his office then? If not, acting like the current situation is so much worse, makes you look like an abject moron.

We should trade for Miguel Andujar. Why? What position does he fill that isn't already back filled with prospects we have on hand now? Why bring in a guy who has been shit for 3+ years when we already have too many guys who need to get on the field? He had one good year in 2018. He's 27.

I've seen these reclamation projects mentioned so many times and it baffles me when there are, again, internal options that need evaluated right now, at the ML level.

The key now is getting the premium talent up and having a coaching staff in place that can win with it. I've already stated that Cherington will have lost me if he doesn't fire Shelton this winter. He and Haines must be gone or I'm out. He is responsible for bringing in a better manager and I'm holding him to that obvious need.

The idea that I'm some nut hugging fanboy is absurd. But I will not engage with malcontent, low hanging fruit who are only here to bitch and cackle on about how shitty the team/world is.

And people who engage me with insults are getting reported and put on ignore. Fair warning.

I"ve got no problem with criticism, but droning bitch fests are not welcomed here. Period.
 
I had been assuming Newman only had one additional year of control. He's such a weird case, because if the hits aren't really falling for him, then he borders on a non-tender candidate IMO, making his arbitration control a moot point. He seems like a guy who will continue to get utility jobs because of the defense, and the only saving grace in a trade might be the offensive streakiness that he's been prone to before.

I think you probably just deal him and get what you can, but I have no idea what that is. Maybe you add him with Q to the Yankees and can get a couple of prospects along with Andujar or Florial. As much as I hate to say it, there might be logic to keeping him if the offers are all just bleh. Even assuming Marcano is locked and loaded to be promoted and never look back, he can play a utility role for everyday playing time, and there's not yet any urgency despite the significant amount of middle infield players between AA and AAA.

You can always get a bleh return next year, and there's at least a non-zero chance that he finds his stroke and has the health to recapture his 2019 production. I can't really believe I'm saying this, but he's a low-key type of add that I'd be hoping my playoff team could acquire on the cheap. Speed, defense, flexibility, and contact are all very useful skills to have in your bench player or a regular rotation/starter/#9 hitter on a playoff team. I think the Yankees are a pretty great fit, as he's a clear upgrade over Kiner-Filefa and would be a nuisance to deal with in that lineup occasionally.
 
Cherington gets somewhere between a C and B- for his job so far. I don't like grade inflation. And he gets two more years to do better. Because there ain't much better out there.

If the lack of feet kissing is so offensive, please ignore.
 
Yeah I can't see a legitimate argument for Cherington deserving less than a B- grade right now. I have him at a firm B, but I just don't see a case for him being lower than that.

The trades overall have been good. The drafts have been excellent. Free agency has been a mixed bag, although I think the Perez signing could have made a major impact for this year had he not gotten hurt. He also got Hayes signed to a very team-friendly contract.
 
Yeah I can't see a legitimate argument for Cherington deserving less than a B- grade right now. I have him at a firm B, but I just don't see a case for him being lower than that.

The trades overall have been good. The drafts have been excellent. Free agency has been a mixed bag, although I think the Perez signing could have made a major impact for this year had he not gotten hurt. He also got Hayes signed to a very team-friendly contract.
2020 draft is excellent? Really?
 
It's also waaaay to early to make ANY conclusions about 2020. This isn't football. We won't have a real idea on 2020 for another 2 years. Not to mention that was coming off not having any real scouting ability due to covid. I'm going to give every GM out there more rope when it comes to the 2020 class.

Gonzales has hit everywhere he's been. I'm not dumping on him because of 2 only decent months and then a big injury which didn't help matters. He's still an impact bat until he goes most/full season without hitting.

Jones has been up and down but still shows a lot of high end, raw stuff. I've watched him multiple times. Comes down to command. If he can harness that, he'll be a SP for us.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gallatin
If you assume that SF is a seller (or at least not a buyer), there are 7 teams for 6 spots in the NL. While it limits the field of buyers a bit it definitely could encourage teams in it to be more likely to go for it since they are more solidly in the mix and don't have the specter of a one-and-done.


Good lord. No one is attacking anyone, unless you count this patronizing "we're the only ones smart enough to understand what they are doing and not getting mad" shtick. People have different opinions. The fact some fan boys are so offended by negative comments that they choose to put people on ignore is your prerogative, but no one is "attacking" anyone. And really, there are plenty of others who bring as much or more info to this thread other than you and Costanza.
Guys like me come to this thread because it's something different from the rest of the Bucs conversations out there, which tend to be non-stop complaining.

Food for thought.
 
So basically, you have a problem with me saying "his total draft results have been great" because you think the 2020 draft was bad?

That seems needlessly pedantic.
The 2020 draft is 1/3rd of his draft and the one with the most post-evidence.

Tbh I love Johnson, we didn't mess that up but I'm not impressed with the rest of the 2022 class much. 2021 seems great.

C+/B-. He gets two more years either way. But tanking is easy.
 
Guys like me come to this thread because it's something different from the rest of the Bucs conversations out there, which tend to be non-stop complaining.

Food for thought.
And that's fine. But I don't get the need to try to control or censor what comments others make. Hell, this is the same site where there were 201384033991 posts bitching about Chris Kunitz - it happens. The fact people can't just ignore posts (or posters) and move on with their own comments and engagement is bizarre to me, but I guess it is what it is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gallatin
The 2020 draft is 1/3rd of his draft and the one with the most post-evidence.

Tbh I love Johnson, we didn't mess that up but I'm not impressed with the rest of the 2022 class much. 2021 seems great.

C+/B-. He gets two more years either way. But tanking is easy.
And that's the thing. People can be displeased with how 2022 has progressed without advocating for Cherington to be fired.

And yes, giving him credit for taking Johnson when Johnson fell to him is a little like giving the rooster credit for the sunrise. I think Cherington did a great job in 2021, although if Davis busts, it won't look as brilliant, but this year he took the guy that fell and the subsequent picks were meh.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ChaosAgent
Even PiratesProspects isn't a safe space for Gally any more lol, this was the last bastion of acceptable discussion left
 
If you assume that SF is a seller (or at least not a buyer), there are 7 teams for 6 spots in the NL. While it limits the field of buyers a bit it definitely could encourage teams in it to be more likely to go for it since they are more solidly in the mix and don't have the specter of a one-and-done.


Good lord. No one is attacking anyone, unless you count this patronizing "we're the only ones smart enough to understand what they are doing and not getting mad" shtick. People have different opinions. The fact some fan boys are so offended by negative comments that they choose to put people on ignore is your prerogative, but no one is "attacking" anyone. And really, there are plenty of others who bring as much or more info to this thread other than you and Costanza.
I've been personally attacked - had to put a long time poster in time-out - because I'm too positive. Because I read Pirate Prospects actually.

This current discussion has not reached that level though. We're having a debate IMO.
 
I'm not big on prospect articles, is there value in them, might be, but I'll let the FO do their job when it comes to them. I'd rather watch them at the ML level and watch their progression.
 
I actually like Pirates Prospects in the proper context.

I think Gally misrepresented the position of the site as being unabashedly pro-Cherington since they are the most knowledgeable. Specifically that Tim Williams, the owner, thinks the BC administration is worlds better than the NH administration. Which is funny because Tim was as bullish is at comes about the NH administration. Gally reconciled that by saying that Tim spoke at length about the "error in his ways" when it came to uncritical analysis.

Doesn't add up. Thankfully it doesn't really have to. Individual development of baseball players may be subjective and unquantifiable but holistically you can look at the actual results to see if things are moving in the right direction. Baseball is a game of stats.

I'd definitely trust Tim Williams to inform me of what's going on with Fabricio Macias. But I wouldn't trust his judgment over anyone else's on a holistic assumption of the organization.
 
Theoretically, the Pirates do not need to add a lot to be a decent team next season.

A lot of that is dependent on their plans for the backend.

Is this rotation terrible?: Brubaker, Roansy, Keller, Thompson, Burrows

No.

Is it anything more than decent? No.

Could they find two better backend arms? Maybe - but would they pay the cost to do it? Doubtful. Maybe they'll take a flier on one guy. My thought is they (Thompson and Burrows) will both be there after ST.

That rotation is good enough to break the 100-loss schneid. Add a Priester cup-o-joe in September for added zing.

Last thought here: if Keller's improvement continues and Thompson returns to his 2021 form, it's a borderline good rotation. Pie-in-the-sky, perhaps, but we can dream.

Relief is in better shape than I initially thought. Bednar, De La Santos, Crowe, Holderman, Beede, and Bryse Wilson (2.08 ERA as a reliever this season, albeit over just 11 IP) is decent. One more arm is all that is definitely required. (Organizational depth moves may be more numerous.)

I would like to see an infield of Hayes, Cruz, Marcano, and Chavis. Hopefully soon -- as in Wednesday. I hope that is the crew that starts off 2023. At some point we figure to actually see what Ji-hwan Bae can do in the big leagues. I hope it's soon, before September. I have him penciled in as the utility man of 2023. And of course, Diego Castillo. Solid defensive piece, hopefully he can find the bat again.

Catcher could stand to be upgraded. Heineman and Delay are ok. Maybe bring Roberto Perez back?

Suwinski seems to be bouncing back a bit in AAA. The K-rate is a bit concerning but the power is still obviously there. Reynolds is Reynolds, and I think they'll get a deal done. RF is a bit up in the air. Mitchell has hit very well since coming back up (.297) - hopefully that continues. After those three, I would tentatively have Swaggerty up, since he can play anywhere in the outfield. Whether he can perform well enough to remain would be the big question.

What they lack is a heavy bat DH who can also fill in at RF and 1B when needed.

Overview - 23 of 25:
OF: Reynolds, Suwinski, Mitchell, Swaggerty
IF: Hayes, Cruz, Chavis, Newman, Castillo
C: Heineman, Delay / (R. Perez?)
U: Marcano, Bae
DH: ?

Rotation: Brubaker, Roansy, Keller, Thompson, Burrows

Relief: Bednar, De La Santos, Crowe, Holderman, Beede, Bryse Wilson, ?

Opening Day:
1. Marcano - 2B
2. Reynolds - CF
3. Cruz - SS
4. DH
5. Suwinski - RF
6. Chavis - 1B
7. Hayes - 3B
8. Mitchell - RF
9. Catcher

SP: Brubaker

----

Needs:
High priority: Power bat for DH, 1B/RF depth, relief arm
Low priority: Catcher upgrade, backend rotation arm
----

Finally, I support moving Newman right now while his value is as hot as it likely ever will be. There's also a bit of a redundancy issue going forward with Marcano, Bae, and Castillo.
 
Nutting and Cherington are not mutually exclusive. That's the painfully obvious distinction that people are missing.

What in the hell would you like a GM who has no money to spend, do? Don't you dare say spend more. Cherington has zero control over that. He's operating on one of the bottom 3 payrolls in baseball. I've seen so many around here act and literally post, "if we just spent this, or spent that, or went after this big name".....Guess what. We ain't got the money and that has nothing to do with the GM.

Oh, and he DID extend Hayes, which apparently people have forgotten after clamoring for it for the past year plus. Now that Hayes is struggling, that little nugget is glossed over. If Hayes were tearing it up, you'd all be going what a great signing, we locked in a star, good on Ben....

I already pointed out the numerous budget FA signings that he got right, just this year alone. There is no denying it. But still, he's a bum.

He took a system that was well below average 2.5 years ago, and has turned into one that ranks in the top 5 across the board.

And how?

Taillon netted us Contreras. I don't care if any of the other guys do a damn thing. He got a legitimate upside starter for a guy that had cancer and TJ surgery, twice. But hey, bum because in year 3, we're losing a lot, which was expected.

He got Suwinski and Marcano for a few months of Frazier. How'd that work out for SD? We're looking at 2 guys with real upside as plus regulars. We can't honestly lose that trade given how bad Fraizer tanked after leaving.

People bitch about the Musgrove trade. We got an AS closer out of it. And Endy Rodriguez is probably going to end the year as a top 5 prospect and should be exciting everyone given what he's done since coming over. Sure, maybe we hold onto Joe longer and maybe he pitches better than he did for us, and maybe we get a better package, but the reality is, we got an actual AS at a key position and found a pretty damn good prospect to boot.

Sure as hell beats the Cole trade, but what the hell do I know, right? And Cole was a much better arm than Musgrove when dealt.

We pulled off an incredible draft haul last year, all of those high picks having success early on. Facts.

We got, on paper, the best bat in the draft this year. That's pretty much a consensus option from the experts.

No, most of our talent is not in the low minors. I saw that somewhere over the last 2 pages. That's a poor take.

Contreras, Marcano, Suwinski, Bae, Burrows, Priester, Davis, Gonzales, Peguero, Holderman, Toribio, Thomas, are all in AA/AAA right now. That means, hypothetically, any of those folks could be up full time by this time next year. Some of those guys will be up here in a few days.

Mitch Keller, who I am now looking stupid on, having called for him to be shot into the sun just 3 months ago, is progress, no? I'm not always right, and will admit it when warranted. Let's gloss over Keller's drastic improvement and what that means to 2023 and beyond.

Neal Huntington lost 105 games in his 3rd year. Were you all carrying pitchforks and rifles to his office then? If not, acting like the current situation is so much worse, makes you look like an abject moron.

We should trade for Miguel Andujar. Why? What position does he fill that isn't already back filled with prospects we have on hand now? Why bring in a guy who has been shit for 3+ years when we already have too many guys who need to get on the field? He had one good year in 2018. He's 27.

I've seen these reclamation projects mentioned so many times and it baffles me when there are, again, internal options that need evaluated right now, at the ML level.

The key now is getting the premium talent up and having a coaching staff in place that can win with it. I've already stated that Cherington will have lost me if he doesn't fire Shelton this winter. He and Haines must be gone or I'm out. He is responsible for bringing in a better manager and I'm holding him to that obvious need.

The idea that I'm some nut hugging fanboy is absurd. But I will not engage with malcontent, low hanging fruit who are only here to bitch and cackle on about how shitty the team/world is.

And people who engage me with insults are getting reported and put on ignore. Fair warning.

I"ve got no problem with criticism, but droning bitch fests are not welcomed here. Period.

Well said Sir. I won't make the time for in depth debating like this, got better things to learn about.

But I'm glad this post was made. You speak for me here.
 
@TotesTorts, great post.


From Tim himself:
"It hasn’t been a monster year for the system, but there are players progressing. We just don’t have many examples of players progressing to the majors and producing, which makes the rest almost meaningless."

Maybe it's about the way you reach this conclusion. But most fans and those in-the-know are justifiably unhappy with this year.
 
He got the best high school bat since Griffey Jr this year and pulled off the masterclass 2021 draft. His drafting overall has absolutely been excellent.
My MLB Development coach buddy would disagree with you on the Griffey comp. He also doesn't see it with the Wade Boggs and Vladimir guerrera Jr comparisons. Says only a handful of scouts are talking about him like that, but does see a 70 grade bat with 60 grade power and a high floor. Likes the pick, preferred the higher risk in Green though @#4.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad