OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Congrats to the Houston Cheaters on their win

[TotesTorts]

I'm giving Cherington two more seasons. Given his obvious talent, proclivity for drafting 1st overall and ability to instill a culture from top to bottom, he should easily be able to acquire such players as Martin, Liriano and Burnett circa 2013 for $20M combined.

But seriously. He gets two more years even if this year has been hot garbage.

You simply do not catch lightning in a bottle like Burnett and Liriano. It doesn't happen. Huntington was the luckiest GM in history in that regard. Judging anyone on their lack of such signings is ludicrous.

When the team is close to competing, we may see Cherrington make moves like adding a Russell Martin-like veteran to the team.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Cherington just basically hasn't taken any shots yet with this team, and I think it's fair to reach a point of frustration. I hate to just harp on it, but the thing that doesn't make sense yet is Reynolds. A full teardown means trading Reynolds at some point, probably even last year. But he's kept him and now his stock has to be a little bit lower, and I think he can't really be traded with this uncertainty about the oblique. He can still get a pretty big return for him next year, but he's basically wasted 1.5 years already and it speaks to not really making the decisions that were all he promised (and mostly followed through on) in the very early going.

I think he can fix it if there's an attempt made to go to Reynolds camp with a genuine extension offer. We're not likely to develop many players as good as him, and his skills won't fall off a cliff or be unusable in LF. If he makes that move, then at least it's a matter of a slower burn overhaul of almost everything else. But right now, as we head into the deadline, he's torn down everything but his best trade chip and missed badly with the return and/or timing on several others.

The system has a lot of talent and depth, including at the upper levels, but he hasn't really shown the initiative to make MLB moves outside of complete opportunity dumpster dives. That's why I think going one step up for change of scenery guys who have really shown some things before or would be complementary players, in the vein of Dom Smith or Zach Plesac, would be a bit of a relief. If you can add some more MLB talents through getting creative in the next 48 hours, then you have some time to further assess and get experience for young players in the last two months, and then look to a couple of mid-tier free agents along with extending Reynolds in the offseason. For example, if you paid a small prospect cost to get Dom Smith, you could try to sign Trey Mancini and pursue a reunion with Quintana. Maybe even look into a contract with Keller. But that kind of move set doesn't even push the payroll up that much and it gives you some more of a baseline for the talent that's on the way to surround.

 

[ChaosAgent]

You simply do not catch lightning in a bottle like Burnett and Liriano. It doesn't happen. Huntington was the luckiest GM in history in that regard. Judging anyone on their lack of such signings is ludicrous.

When the team is close to competing, we may see Cherrington make moves like adding a Russell Martin-like veteran to the team.

If it took us having the luckiest run in history to be successful from '13-'15 and the current state now isn't really any better than it was in 2010, tell me what exactly gives cause for optimism?

 

[ChaosAgent]

Cherington just basically hasn't taken any shots yet with this team, and I think it's fair to reach a point of frustration. I hate to just harp on it, but the thing that doesn't make sense yet is Reynolds. A full teardown means trading Reynolds at some point, probably even last year. But he's kept him and now his stock has to be a little bit lower, and I think he can't really be traded with this uncertainty about the oblique. He can still get a pretty big return for him next year, but he's basically wasted 1.5 years already and it speaks to not really making the decisions that were all he promised (and mostly followed through on) in the very early going.

I think he can fix it if there's an attempt made to go to Reynolds camp with a genuine extension offer. We're not likely to develop many players as good as him, and his skills won't fall off a cliff or be unusable in LF. If he makes that move, then at least it's a matter of a slower burn overhaul of almost everything else. But right now, as we head into the deadline, he's torn down everything but his best trade chip and missed badly with the return and/or timing on several others.

The system has a lot of talent and depth, including at the upper levels, but he hasn't really shown the initiative to make MLB moves outside of complete opportunity dumpster dives. That's why I think going one step up for change of scenery guys who have really shown some things before or would be complementary players, in the vein of Dom Smith or Zach Plesac, would be a bit of a relief. If you can add some more MLB talents through getting creative in the next 48 hours, then you have some time to further assess and get experience for young players in the last two months, and then look to a couple of mid-tier free agents along with extending Reynolds in the offseason. For example, if you paid a small prospect cost to get Dom Smith, you could try to sign Trey Mancini and pursue a reunion with Quintana. Maybe even look into a contract with Keller. But that kind of move set doesn't even push the payroll up that much and it gives you some more of a baseline for the talent that's on the way to surround.

Honestly I don't think I'm being unreasonable with my ask for more progress this year. If this makes sense, if the FO knew how bad their team would suck this year...they'd have traded Reynolds last year. I think the FO was half-in on the idea that a window could start in 23-24 but now they are re evaluating the timeline. At the same time, Reynolds' value is lower and fan sentiment is at an all-time low for BC's tenure. Maybe they hope he rebuilds his value then move him in the offseason

 

[DJ Spinoza]

The market seems to been completely quiet. I assume it's in part because many teams are keyed in on the biggest possible fish, and there are multiple teams who could buy and sell in some complicated fashion. It seems like we get some version of this "biggest trade deadline every" BS every year, but I still thought there'd be some more concrete rumors by now.

Maybe things will ramp up tomorrow. I am expecting middling returns on Quintana at best, and really not much besides that. I think you pretty much have to trade Newman for what you can because I don't see him as valuable in the winter. He feels like a fallback for a team in on Drury. Maybe there's a team that has seen him be really streaky in a good way with the bat before and looks at the immediate results and buys in, but I'm definitely pulling for something like an improbable flip for Andujar, who we can just run out there as a DH/RF.

Beyond that, though, BC needs a little more of a shakeup or something off the board. We're even at the point where I'd be fine doubling down on keeping Quintana with some canned comments about veteran leadership and bringing him back. I really don't think he's going to garner that much in a deal, but the market is so thin and there are so many suitors. Maybe DiPoto even pulls an AJ Preller and just acquires a majority share in the market -- there might be a target we had last year for Anderson who we can ask about again.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Just a couple of thoughts here:

1. I think being mad that the team sucks right now is silly. I know most people realize this, but I need to point this out. Want to be upset about how far they've come since BC took over? Yeah, that's totally valid for a lot of reasons. But being mad that they suck when no one running the show thought they wouldn't suck is silly. The biggest criticisms for him are with how Shelton has done as a manager (which disappoints me because I really liked the hire) and how a lot of their top guys are struggling in the minors, which is a reflection of the development staff he has set up.
2. They're at year 2.5 of a rebuild that the organization seems to think will take 5 years. I think BC has mostly done a good job (probably at a B grade overall), but there still remains a lot of time for how his tenure will be graded. There is a lot of randomness with the future that can't be determined based on a 50 game sample size in A+ ball or something like that. What if one of the prospects he acquired in one of his deal suddenly has a velocity increase of like 3 MPH? That's basically what happened with Contreras, he went from a secondary piece in the Taillon trade to one of their main pitchers of the future.

The focus of the team right now should be with player development and acquiring players for the future. Cherington overall has done a good job in trades and a great job in the draft, namely the masterclass 2021 draft. A lot of the development stuff remains to be determined just because we're not super far into his term as GM. It's discouraging right now, but it's a couple of good breaks (instead of the bad breaks they've had with injuries to guys like Gonzalez and Davis) away from looking good.

I have this stance with NHL GMs for sure, and I think it also applies to MLB GMs: a huge part of being a "good GM" is just getting lucky. All you can do is sign guys, trade for players your scouts like and try to provide the best support for your young guys. Everything else beyond that is just luck.

 

[ImporterExporter]

People that are legitimately angry at the record currently, amuse me. These same people knew this year was going to be a loss. We talked about it last year. Before this year even began.

A complete tear down from the ground up, with an owner who will not spend on FA's, takes at least 3-4 years to move the needle in the right direction. Bear minimum, and that's if everything goes right and you have a great staff.

WTF did you expect when the guy at the top didn't open his wallet to bring in any ML ready talent.

AND, we got huge performances from Quintana, for 2 million. But let's gloss over that, right? Ben Gamel for what, a million? He's been worth his contract and more. We just traded a DH only guy, who we signed for nothing, for a potential long term late inning pen guy, which most execs said we did brilliantly on. What about Perez? He looked like a great pick up and was only ruined by injury. Do we not give Cherington a plus on that signing as well? He didn't injure the guy.

Contreras will be back up soon, along with Marcano, Suwinski. Bae will get a look once healthy again. Burrows will get a cup in September and certainly should be challenging for a roster spot by next June/July.

By this time next year, Priester should be arriving. Numerous other names that I'm not going to type out.

IF, and that's still a fairly big IF, Shelton and his staff are replaced by reputable people, this team is going to start winning a lot more games next season and then in 2024 probably right in the thick of a WC spot.

 

[ImporterExporter]

 

[ImporterExporter]

From the Yanks my ask is Waldichuk+Sears but would settle for Medina+Brito

From the Phils, I wonder if we'd be able to sneak O'Hoppe, given they have so much invested in Realmuto, as a nice buffer against Davis going the wrong way. Not likely but the Phils don't exactly cling to prospects.

I wonder if the Mariners would be stupid enough to give up Hancock for a few months of Q. I'm guessing not, otherwise Cherington already makes that but realistically a borderline top 10 guy to look at as a headliner, Taylor Dollard. Having a crazy good year in AA. RH SP.

 

[TotesTorts]

If it took us having the luckiest run in history to be successful from '13-'15 and the current state now isn't really any better than it was in 2010, tell me what exactly gives cause for optimism?

Most of the really talented players are AA and below. Like I said, a full rebuild is a very long process for small market baseball clubs.

 

[McGroarty2]

From the Yanks my ask is Waldichuk+Sears but would settle for Medina+Brito

From the Phils, I wonder if we'd be able to sneak O'Hoppe, given they have so much invested in Realmuto, as a nice buffer against Davis going the wrong way. Not likely but the Phils don't exactly cling to prospects.

I wonder if the Mariners would be stupid enough to give up Hancock for a few months of Q. I'm guessing not, otherwise Cherington already makes that but realistically a borderline top 10 guy to look at as a headliner, Taylor Dollard. Having a crazy good year in AA. RH SP.

Instead of Hancock I would ask for Footpenis from Seattle.

 

[MrBrightside]

The relentless moving of the goalposts here is a sight to behold. Just last summer Costanza insisted all 101-loss season long that the Pirates were close and we’d start seeing progress soon. Now it’s “well, no one said they’d be good but just wait until 2025!” Everyone should be so lucky to be graded as easily as the fanboy segment of the fan base grades the GM who is in place. Most of these guys defended Huntington right up until the end - now he’s used as an excuse for Cherington - “look at what bad shape they were in when he took over.” The Stockholm Syndrome is alive and well.

 

[ImporterExporter]

The real amusing aspect to this sudden onslaught at me specifically is that it's clearly a pathetic attempt to get me to lose it or fly off the handle.

Won't work. Mr. BS is on ignore. Another, on the precipice.

I'm one of the few people who is positive, who clearly sees the arc of Cheringtons rebuild and understands what he's doing. Who keeps the casual person updated w/prospect information, of which there is plenty to be happy about.

I've got no interest in going back and forth with people who's primary tactic is to use meme level retorts and childish cackling.

I've got zero issue with those who think we're doomed. That's your opinion and it's probably justified.

But I've been following this team and attending games when Bonds was roaming the OF for us. I've been through the last 30 odd years of shit. I know better than most here how shitty it's been to be a Bucs fan.

I choose to find the plusses in the current environment and believe that we've built a system that will bring about a winning window.

Just know that continued bitching and insults at me gets you on ignore, permanently. So I won't see your drivel.

Happy Monday.

 

[MrBrightside]

Ha, ok. I couldn't care less if you fly off the handle or not. It's a message board. Say what you want. Similarly, ignore me if you want - frankly anyone who is as patronizing and insulting as you are acting offended because others view the Pirates differently than you do is adorable, so read what I write or don't. Don't care either way.

And really, along those lines, literally post whatever you want and think whatever you want, but it's really hard to take opinions seriously or find them persuasive when they come from an admitted vantage point of being tainted by forced optimism and lacking in objectivity.

 

[sovietsanta87]

Yeah I don’t think anyone is shocked or mad that we have a losing record. I’m more pissed at the bigger picture which is that the owner is a giant turd who skimps on every aspect of owning a sports team. Don’t want to spend on free agents? Fine. Spend on coaching and development. But he doesn’t do that either. Andy Haines was fired from two separate teams as hitting instructor. Yet here he is in Pittsburgh with a team that can’t bat it’s weight.

This season is not progress. You can dream on players that aren’t even born yet but there is no guarantee of future success based on those players. I think a solid free agent pick up (at least at first base or right field) would have been beneficial to this team.

They absolutely cannot go through this offseason signing spare parts and future Japanese league bench players and expect to get much support. At some point you have to go from completely dreadful to mediocre, with a hint of competitive on the horizon.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'm not saying to fire Cherington. He gets through 2024 and keeps his job if we hit 80 wins then. There ain't any better ideas.

But if the options for job rating are "exceeds expectations", "meets expectations", "meets some expectations" or "doesn't meet" he is in the 2nd or 3rd category as of now and no more. This "beatings will continue until the morale improves!" is dispiriting to say the least.

Similarly, I don't even care that much that 2023 and 2024 are off the menu as part of a window.
I care about why. And we all know why.
Hayes .673
Cruz .645
Madris .580
Swaggerty .222
Castillo .613
Suwinski .716
Mitchell .635
Castro .565
Marcano .637

Is why.

Indy and Altoona middle of the pack of their respective leagues in OPS is why.

So please accept that you post some 18-20 year old flying just under the radar doing cool stuff in the lower levels or backfields uncontaminated by the GM you don't like, I'm not going to take it as seriously when we haven't developed a single good MLB hitter since Bryan Reynolds.

If this gets me on another ignore list so be it.

 

[MrBrightside]

I'm not saying to fire Cherington. He gets through 2024 and keeps his job if we hit 80 wins then. There ain't any better ideas.

But if the options for job rating are "exceeds expectations", "meets expectations", "meets some expectations" or "doesn't meet" he is in the 2nd or 3rd category as of now and no more. This "beatings will continue until the morale improves!" is dispiriting to say the least.

Similarly, I don't even care that much that 2023 and 2024 are off the menu as part of a window.
I care about why. And we all know why.
Hayes .673
Cruz .645
Madris .580
Swaggerty .222
Castillo .613
Suwinski .716
Mitchell .635
Castro .565
Marcano .637

Is why.

Indy and Altoona middle of the pack of their respective leagues in OPS is why.

So please accept that you post some 18-20 year old flying just under the radar doing cool stuff in the lower levels or backfields uncontaminated by the GM you don't like, I'm not going to take it as seriously when we haven't developed a single good MLB hitter since Bryan Reynolds.

If this gets me on another ignore list so be it.

Yes, if Newman were to get traded by the deadline that would leave Bryan Reynolds as the only position player on the roster with an OPS above .700.

 

[xlm34]

I'm not saying to fire Cherington. He gets through 2024 and keeps his job if we hit 80 wins then. There ain't any better ideas.

But if the options for job rating are "exceeds expectations", "meets expectations", "meets some expectations" or "doesn't meet" he is in the 2nd or 3rd category as of now and no more. This "beatings will continue until the morale improves!" is dispiriting to say the least.

Similarly, I don't even care that much that 2023 and 2024 are off the menu as part of a window.
I care about why. And we all know why.
Hayes .673
Cruz .645
Madris .580
Swaggerty .222
Castillo .613
Suwinski .716
Mitchell .635
Castro .565
Marcano .637

Is why.

Indy and Altoona middle of the pack of their respective leagues in OPS is why.

So please accept that you post some 18-20 year old flying just under the radar doing cool stuff in the lower levels or backfields uncontaminated by the GM you don't like, I'm not going to take it as seriously when we haven't developed a single good MLB hitter since Bryan Reynolds.

If this gets me on another ignore list so be it.

I think it’s fair to have some skepticism with Cherington. I like what he’s done for the most part so far, but I think you’ve said it before, how hard is it really to build up a strong system when you’re drafting early every year and have a decent number of assets to trade?

I’m hoping for the best but I have some PTSD from the Glasnow/Taillon/Bell/Polanco/Meadows class that was supposed to make an impact.

I think it’s also fair to be disappointed by how this year has gone. It’s tough to watch the team when at any given time 5 or 6 of the starters have no shot at being around when the team hopes to be competitive. I was definitely hoping there would he more of a youth movement, at the major league level but that hasn’t really happened.

 

[Rave7215]

Man, I miss the days of the "No Bummer" rule in this thread. Just enjoying talking about the Buccos. This is quickly turning into the Steelers thread too. Going to have to take a break from HF for a while.

Hopefully Quintana and Newman return something at the deadline, Yoshi and VanMeter are DFA'd, and the last portion of the season can be giving the AAA guys a chance. Call up Swaggerty, Marcano, and BAE and see what you have.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I think the turn back away from the youth movement was what really gutted July from being watchable at all. We basically had Cruz up and down, being sat slightly too much for my liking and also buried in the lineup half the time. It's not the end of the world to rest him regularly, but he should be playing and hitting high in the order vs. LHP too. He needs to reps -- the idea is to get him to the level of being an everyday threat next season, so of course there's going to be some ugly to deal with. At least we haven't gotten to the point of a platoon, which I worried about with Newman coming back.

But we basically jettisoned Marcano out of the mix and it's just so plainly obvious that Yoshi and VanMeter have been headed for DFA territory for a month. Cherington's record on this roster filler is non-existent, and it's one reason why I am hoping against hope he looks for a creative solution like Andujar or Smith, who can plug into an opportunity and not immediately be trade fodder or gone in free agency, at the deadline.

We'll see. Beyond that, I'm not too optimistic or anticipating much in the final months. It's nice to see Mitchell have a solid series, and the OF time should be there for him. Marcano better be in the starting lineup on Tuesday, and Yoshi and JVM better not be with the team. I think you leave Suwinski in AAA until he cuts the Ks for two weeks, and then everyday time should be available. At a glance, Castro had a solid July, so I think what I'd like to see by Tuesday night is the following:

Out: Tsutsugo, VanMeter, Gamel, Newman
In: Marcano, Castro, Swaggerty, TBD

Even just laying it out, I'm not confident VanMeter is getting the boot. Swaggerty didn't have as good of a month of July as earlier in the season, but he's come on late and unless we're just going to plug our ears about Suwinski's Ks, he's basically the guy. Castro might be a stretch, but Bae is out for at least a few more weeks and Park has not been good.

There's easily room for a change of scenery option or two if we're going to churn roster spots. Pitching-wise, probably more straightforward:

Out: Quintana, one RP
In: Holderman, TBD and ultimately Contreras at some point, others when rosters expand

You'll have Keller, Brubaker, Thompson, and Wilson, so we'll either see some bullpen action, Yajure or Bolton, or someone acquired at the deadline as we wait for Contreras to come back.

Here I do hope that we don't just shuffle Stratton off for any return whatsoever, as there are other guys who could be optioned or DFA'd to get Holderman where he belongs, and Stratton is worth keeping as a veteran guy for next season.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I think the turn back away from the youth movement was what really gutted July from being watchable at all. We basically had Cruz up and down, being sat slightly too much for my liking and also buried in the lineup half the time. It's not the end of the world to rest him regularly, but he should be playing and hitting high in the order vs. LHP too. He needs to reps -- the idea is to get him to the level of being an everyday threat next season, so of course there's going to be some ugly to deal with. At least we haven't gotten to the point of a platoon, which I worried about with Newman coming back.

But we basically jettisoned Marcano out of the mix and it's just so plainly obvious that Yoshi and VanMeter have been headed for DFA territory for a month. Cherington's record on this roster filler is non-existent, and it's one reason why I am hoping against hope he looks for a creative solution like Andujar or Smith, who can plug into an opportunity and not immediately be trade fodder or gone in free agency, at the deadline.

We'll see. Beyond that, I'm not too optimistic or anticipating much in the final months. It's nice to see Mitchell have a solid series, and the OF time should be there for him. Marcano better be in the starting lineup on Tuesday, and Yoshi and JVM better not be with the team. I think you leave Suwinski in AAA until he cuts the Ks for two weeks, and then everyday time should be available. At a glance, Castro had a solid July, so I think what I'd like to see by Tuesday night is the following:

Out: Tsutsugo, VanMeter, Gamel, Newman
In: Marcano, Castro, Swaggerty, TBD

Even just laying it out, I'm not confident VanMeter is getting the boot. Swaggerty didn't have as good of a month of July as earlier in the season, but he's come on late and unless we're just going to plug our ears about Suwinski's Ks, he's basically the guy. Castro might be a stretch, but Bae is out for at least a few more weeks and Park has not been good.

There's easily room for a change of scenery option or two if we're going to churn roster spots. Pitching-wise, probably more straightforward:

Out: Quintana, one RP
In: Holderman, TBD and ultimately Contreras at some point, others when rosters expand

You'll have Keller, Brubaker, Thompson, and Wilson, so we'll either see some bullpen action, Yajure or Bolton, or someone acquired at the deadline as we wait for Contreras to come back.

Here I do hope that we don't just shuffle Stratton off for any return whatsoever, as there are other guys who could be optioned or DFA'd to get Holderman where he belongs, and Stratton is worth keeping as a veteran guy for next season.

This is good commentary for the guys who should be playing vs. not. But for me, also I'm going to devalue the process of the guys who ultimately do play - if it's the kids - continue to be overmatched night after night.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

If the Phillies are willing to overpay in a deal for Quintana, then I really think Falter is the perfect target. The Phillies have some premium SP talent on the way, Wheeler for multiple years, Nola for another, and Suarez just hitting arbitration, so he might be expendable for short-term security.

The funny thing is, he sort of profiles in between the bullpen and rotation, and if they shore up the latter with Quintana or otherwise, then it makes sense for them to just stick him in the bullpen and see. Maybe a way to pry him away would be to include a reliever in a deal with Q, since that gives them a mid/back-end rotation guy and some help in the pen, where they need it.

I think their big target should probably be Ramon Laureano, though the trouble there is that if O'Hoppe is their main piece to try and dangle, Oakland is swimming in catchers and already probably shopping Murphy.

O'Hoppe would be a good get for Quintana to be sure, but his stock is going up so much that I'd be really surprised. He's more like the kind of headliner you might ask for in a Bednar trade. The Phillies also have a pretty decent looking catcher in AAA in Donny Sands, so maybe that's the kind of ask that makes sense for Quintana, or something like Quintana+ for Falter+Sands. That would give you two immediately contributors at important positions, but I'm not sure what the + would be.

 

[Gallatin]

The real amusing aspect to this sudden onslaught at me specifically is that it's clearly a pathetic attempt to get me to lose it or fly off the handle.

Won't work. Mr. BS is on ignore. Another, on the precipice.

I'm one of the few people who is positive, who clearly sees the arc of Cheringtons rebuild and understands what he's doing. Who keeps the casual person updated w/prospect information, of which there is plenty to be happy about.

I've got no interest in going back and forth with people who's primary tactic is to use meme level retorts and childish cackling.

I've got zero issue with those who think we're doomed. That's your opinion and it's probably justified.

But I've been following this team and attending games when Bonds was roaming the OF for us. I've been through the last 30 odd years of shit. I know better than most here how shitty it's been to be a Bucs fan.

I choose to find the plusses in the current environment and believe that we've built a system that will bring about a winning window.

Just know that continued bitching and insults at me gets you on ignore, permanently. So I won't see your drivel.

Happy Monday.

It's funny how the two positive upbeat guys bringing the most info into the thread are the ones getting attacked and having to put people on Ignore.

People will be people.

 

[Gallatin]

Yeah I don’t think anyone is shocked or mad that we have a losing record. I’m more pissed at the bigger picture which is that the owner is a giant turd who skimps on every aspect of owning a sports team. Don’t want to spend on free agents? Fine. Spend on coaching and development. But he doesn’t do that either. Andy Haines was fired from two separate teams as hitting instructor. Yet here he is in Pittsburgh with a team that can’t bat it’s weight.

This season is not progress. You can dream on players that aren’t even born yet but there is no guarantee of future success based on those players. I think a solid free agent pick up (at least at first base or right field) would have been beneficial to this team.

They absolutely cannot go through this offseason signing spare parts and future Japanese league bench players and expect to get much support. At some point you have to go from completely dreadful to mediocre, with a hint of competitive on the horizon.

Kinda hard to get good coaches for the teardown phase. And do you even want good ones during the worst times? I say no - instead you want what we got, unproven upbeat guys to get us through the lean times.

The real coaches should be inbound next year IMO once you have something to sell them on.

Kinda interesting how it's the two business guys that have the patience, and can so easily see the plan others apparently can't.

 

[ImporterExporter]

It's funny how the two positive upbeat guys bringing the most info into the thread are the ones getting attacked and having to put people on Ignore.

People will be people.

And it's not like I haven't been very angry and vented frustrations this year, multiple times. I have eviscerated the coaching staff. I have piled on about the lineup cards and lack of offense for long stretches. The usage of our good pen arms. This year has largely sucked, though it was always going to. The same people bitching through the roof were the same people who literally said in this thread, we'd lose 100 games...so the outrage is for what exactly?

The difference is I have patience and am not going to go nuclear in year 3 of a complete rebuild, on a budget payroll. These things take a long time to completely turn around.

Got a much longer post coming though....