Race to the bottom - Rebuild thread #2.

[yakfish]

This thread is pretty much the reason why the leaf fanbase is the joke of the league lol

Yep...

 

[Gary Nylund]

I dont think we need a full rebuild, but I do think we need to be more proactive with asset management.

Decisions we made 3-10 years ago in terms of asset management have a huge impact on this current team. Rask for Raycroft, 1st/2nd/3rd for Toskala, Tlusty for Paradis, not getting good value for Kubina, McCabe, Sundin, Tucker, etc, and more recently Grabovski/MacArthur. we allowed our best trade assets to devalue to the point where they were worth very little or we just let them walk for nothing/bought them out, and then we in turn paid premium prices for unproven players who ultimatley failed.

If we want to help build a team that can be contenders for 10+ years, look at what teams like Chicago/Boston do. Theyre willing to sell off high-priced RFAs / good solid players in their primes that are pending UFAs. Kessel, Versteeg, Ladd, Byfgulien, Brouwer, Bolland, etc traded for picks/prospects.

We have Phaneuf, Bolland, Kulemin, Raymond, etc as pending UFAs, Gardiner, Franson, Reimer, etc as pending RFAs. We should try and get Phaneuf resigned, and then i would hope to keep one of Gardiner/Franson.. Other than that, i think all those guys could be potential trade chips, and just becuase we might take a slight hit in competitive ability this year by trading 2-3 of those guys, if its going to help us become more competitive down the line, i dont see the problem. We're not winning th Cup this year anyways, may as well try to get value on the fly.

Identify the core (I would say its Kessel, JVR, Rielly, Bernier or Reimer, Phaneuf if signed, and Kadri), other than that, if you can get good value for a guy youre about to lose for nothing, or for an RFA that cant fit salary-wise, or even if you can get an overpayment for a guy signed with term.. You have to consider it, and even actively try and do it. Ideally you move pending UFAs at the draft the year before, so that you dont have to move them mid-season, as Pits did with J. Staal, Chicago has done with countless players, etc.

IF we hadnt made all those poor asset management decisions over the previous decade when the team and half the fans put "making the playoffs" above "building a contender", we very likely would have the prospect depth to replace all those guys internally without missing a beat. We likely would have found an extra gem or two in the draft, legitimate core pieces that you can build around.

As it is, we have some pieces (Leivo, Ashton, Percy, MacWilliam, Brennan, Liles, Granberg, etc. no NHL ready centre tho). If we start adding picks regularly instead of trading them away regularly, thats the type of thing that will start showing itself in 3-4 years, and then start showing itself for the next decade or longer.

I agree we need more impact players.

My post was more intended to dispel the notion that we need to make the playoff right away to get playoff experience to eventually win a championship.

This team needs to take a 2 but more likely 3 or 4 year view of building this team up to be a championship caliber team.

Instead for to long in Leafland it has been a short-sighted management philosophy of we absolutely need to make the playoffs this year. This has lead to moves like:

-Keeping Grabo and CMac instead of dealing them for extra picks two year ago
-Giving up a pick for a terrible Ryan O'Bryne
-Letting CMac walk last year
-Dealing for a win now player in Bolland

We have some nice pieces for a core in Kessel, Kadri, JVR, Rielly, Bernier (who I believe should be the long term solution over Reimer) to build around with Phaneuf and Gardiner possibilities to add to that (but also possibly top trade assets).

The rest of the roster is what needs to be dealt for futures because I don't see them as key pieces in the a 2 year plan let alone a 3 or 4 year plan: Lupul, Raymond, Bolland, McClement, Franson, Kulemin or even a guy like Gunnarson. All secondary pieces that have can bring a nice return.

For all the draft schmaft people. All the players above open up cap room. Picks/prospects acquired now means picks/prospects that can be packaged in a deal later on when we truly need to add a piece (like a Bernier or Bolland) or even a more high end piece (like a Kessel or JayBo or Iggy or Seguin or Ryan or Carter or Richards or one of the other many high end players that always get dealt every year). We simply need assets that other teams will want because right now we don't have enough of them.

This team simply needs to accumulate more cheap young assets at the moment and quit being so short-sighted in making moves for just this year or next.

Agree 100% with all of this. Too many good young pieces to tank, zero chance of contending in the next year or two so a sensible plan would be to look down the road 3 years or so and make moves with that goal in mind. The nice thing about a plan like that also is that we can be patient. We don't have to make some desperate trade quickly, we can afford to be patient and wait for the right opportunity to come along and be ready for it when it does come.

Unfortunately, the chances of this plan being followed is near zero as it requires a complete change of course based on our off-season moves.

Trading 3 draft picks for Bolland and of course the LOL Clarkson signing is probably the best example of how this is not our strategy. The way things are going now, this team 3-5 years from now will bottom out, the cupboard will be bare, then finally Nonis will be fired and the new guy sill be starting from a much worse position than we are in now.

Man I hope I'm wrong, but that's the way it's looked to me ever since the ink dried on the Clarkson contract. But hey, as of today we're still in a PO spot right? And once you get there anything can happen ... [/sarcasm]

 

[nsleaf]

Anyone that doesn't support a FULL tank - should be ashamed of themselves.

Last year was another huge missed opportunity - to get spanked and embarrassed in the worst collapse the NHL has ever seen in Game 7.

1. Colorado, Nathan MacKinnon, C, Halifax (QMJHL).

2. Florida, Aleksander Barkov, C, Tappara (Finland).

3. Tampa Bay, Jonathan Drouin, Halifax (QMJHL).

4. Nashville, Seth Jones, D, Portland (WHL).

5. Carolina, Elias Lindholm, C, Brynas (Sweden).

6. Calgary, Sean Monahan, C, Ottawa (OHL).

Ashamed of themselves!? Why?

 

[pooleboy]

woah a tank thread already? lmao... just like MU said, as long as we dont end up in the middle idc. bottom out or playoffs. 9-12th placings is what messes up franchises more than anything.

MU=musia ujiri (sp?) i know its basketball but the same could be said for all sports.

 

[pooleboy]

Ashamed of themselves!? Why?

because some people dont want to live in mediocrity forever. I was actually supporting a lockout last year so we could get a top Center (was hoping for top 5 pick so we could get monahan).

People who dont support a tank let me ask u this.... is tavares better than kadri? who would u rather have. is stamkos better than schenn or jvr? how good would our team look if we just bottomed out and got these elite players instead of just good players? i know there are a lot of variables but as long as it doesn't become "allowed" to just tank out like the oilers then it should be ok. Well, and also you need to draft stud Centers.

 

[theTTC]

Ashamed of themselves!? Why?

Because those that don't are foolishly supporting the "out of the playoffs but too good to draft a lottery pick" position we have been in for too many years. Its supporting that incredibly horrible Richard Peddie philosophy of mediocrity that still pervades Leafland long after that cancer was supposed to have been cut out.

"There were lots of positives to take out of the LA loss" This is what passes for success here - a "good" loss!

Don't you people get it???? There is no wunderkind stud center available unless you draft him; Crosby, Tavares, Toews, etc. are locked up for life. We are still a motley collection of, mostly, trade-fors that other teams didn't want and UFAs who you all hate.

A full tank, holding onto all our picks and stockpiling more through sale of what talent we do possess, and patient rebuild is the only option not tried since '67.

 

[Judas Tavares]

As for this coming draft, I'm no draft expert, though I take an interest every year. Usually by draft day, I have a good grasp on the top 50 or so. At this point for next year, I'm still working on the top 20, and only going off of reports.

From what I read, there isn't elite talent, but good talent. Lots of forwards available, but lots of guys who should fill the top 9.

What that means is, unless we tank hard and pick top 5, odds are at pick 6-14 for example, we would get a guy we hope will be as good as Kadri (who some people are souring on 4 years later).

Remember, though it may seem that way, the grass isn't always greener, and the new toy isn't always so shiny.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Agree 100% with all of this. Too many good young pieces to tank, zero chance of contending in the next year or two so a sensible plan would be to look down the road 3 years or so and make moves with that goal in mind. The nice thing about a plan like that also is that we can be patient. We don't have to make some desperate trade quickly, we can afford to be patient and wait for the right opportunity to come along and be ready for it when it does come.

Unfortunately, the chances of this plan being followed is near zero as it requires a complete change of course based on our off-season moves.

Trading 3 draft picks for Bolland and of course the LOL Clarkson signing is probably the best example of how this is not our strategy. The way things are going now, this team 3-5 years from now will bottom out, the cupboard will be bare, then finally Nonis will be fired and the new guy sill be starting from a much worse position than we are in now.

Man I hope I'm wrong, but that's the way it's looked to me ever since the ink dried on the Clarkson contract. But hey, as of today we're still in a PO spot right? And once you get there anything can happen ... [/sarcasm]

You're probably right.

My hope is that Leiweke has some sense to be patient after how the LA Kings situation has played out.

Around 07/08 that had a nice core young core emerging in Brown, Quick, Kopitar.

But they made the rights move to take a further step back and go even younger by dealing Gleason for prospect Jack Johnson, Cammalleri was older than their core and wasn't part of their long range plans so they dealt him for futures, Visnovsky was dealt for a piece that would be around for a lot longer (and lower cap hit) in Stoll.

Without taking a step back and than drafting Doughty, Voynov, Schenn (top piece to get Richards) in the 08/09 drafts they don't become perennial contenders.

The Leafs management (and fans) need to accept that to eventually take a huge step forward we need to take a step back first (and accumulate assets). Their are no free lunches in building a team and the quicker we accept the pain of rebuilding with a view towards winning in 2, 3 or 4 years the quicker we can move towards being a championship team instead of stuck in perennial mediocrity mode.

 

[egd27]

I may be wrong, but it seems as though a lot of the "tankers" are the same people that are the most vocally p***ed off that the team is losing.

Shouldn't they be begging for Carlyle to stay and love the "system" that's causing so many problems rather than screaming for his head?

 

[rdawg1234]

From what I read, there isn't elite talent, but good talent. Lots of forwards available, but lots of guys who should fill the top 9.

Yea this draft is pretty soft outside the top 5, not much reason to tank IMO, Reinhart and Ekblad look to be the top guys, but I havent heard it being deep or anything.

Next year seems to be much better.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Yea this draft is pretty soft outside the top 5, not much reason to tank IMO, Reinhart and Ekblad look to be the top guys, but I havent heard it being deep or anything.

Next year seems to be much better.

There is quality found in every draft outside of the top few guys.

It's top pick + lost assets (prospects, pick in this draft and next) by not dealing guys who shouldn't be in the long term plan (2+ year plan) like McClement, Kulemin, Raymond, Bolland. These guys are just the new version of Grabo, CMac, Stajan, Antropov, Poni, Moore. None who are core pieces. Deal em for futures instead of just bringing back the same middle of the lineup players who will expect to be well compensated as UFAs for what they bring to the table.

 

[number72]

Time to clean house by staring at the top and head down.
Bell/Rogers/Leweike/Nonis and the GMs/Carlyle and the entire leafs roster

 

[exporta]

We are a centre and defenseman away from completing a young core and we should rebuild? Hang your head in shame Leaf nation.

 

[paulhiggins]

Don't want a full rebuild. We have too many young pieces now. However...

...I believe our forwards need to be defensively responsible and have a certain level of grit. Kessel, although very skilled is not the model of what I think our forwards should be. If someone comes along with a great offer for him I would give it a lot of thought.

 

[DaveT83*]

We are a centre and defenseman away from completing a young core and we should rebuild? Hang your head in shame Leaf nation.

And you're plan to acquire these 2 are? You're paying for them with? Who's any good that teams are willing to trade?

 

[Diatomic]

We don't need a rebuild, but we need alot of things.

1) A new coach
2) Replace Bozak with an actual top 6C
3) A new stay at home top 4 D
4) Get rid of Mark Fraser and Paul Ranger

A rebuilding team doesn't take the ECF Boston bruins to game 7 overtime

 

[BayStreetBullies*]

We don't need a rebuild, but we need alot of things.

1) A new coach
2) Replace Bozak with an actual top 6C
3) A new stay at home top 4 D
4) Get rid of Mark Fraser and Paul Ranger

A rebuilding team doesn't take the ECF Boston bruins to game 7 overtime

C'mon now, stop making good points. You're going to piss off the Realistology cult on here, they'll be forced to state the obvious after the fact and claim they were right all along.

 

[BiggestLeafsFanEVER*]

I'd look at off-loading Clarkson, Phaneuf, and Kadri.

clarkson has a nmc and who would take him given he plays like **** and has a bad contract?

 

[Judas Tavares]

Another thing, yes sometimes teams need a complete rebuild and overhaul.

But sometimes, teams have solid enough base that they just need a quick retool.

A good example was Philly. They were good from as long as I can remember. In 2007, they dropped way down, drafted JVR, and then were solid again from 2008-2012.

San Jose has been good since 2000, with two random drop off years in 2003 and 2007.

The Canadiens were fairly solid from 2008-2011, dropped big time and snagged Galchenyuk, and now are solid again.

I'm not saying we are as good as those teams, but sometimes even with a solid team or foundation, you can have a bad year. You retool quickly and recover.

 

[Hurt]

Mod Note: Critique the POST not the POSTER.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I don't think we move Bozak off the team, I feel when he's healthy (boy when did he turn into Glass Man?) he's helpful. Like I said - in a guaranteed rising cap world, Tyler's contract isn't that bad. (it's not great right now either). but if your third best centre is making 4.2 million and you can toss him out there for OZone, DZone, last 2-3 minutes of game time and isn't a liability? that's great. + if needed (say you know, we go down 1-2 centres, can very aptly play on the top line). you take that.

I think what we all need to remember is that the Leafs DID pitch for defense help last summer, but they chose to sign somewhere else. It's not like Nonis went doodeedooo, I choose you!! (I think in Nonis's perfect world the summer would probably have gone somewhere like this):


Clarkson [even with his play right now, I don't think this will be a bad signing]
Sceurdi [wish I knew how to spell his name]
Bozak

(now what will be interesting to know - and we'll never know - if Clarkson was signed because we DIDN'T get Rob S. or if the UFA dollars always broke down to go to Clarkson, Rob. S. Bozak. bing, bang boom)

and I think - if we are honest, management was really hoping that the play of

Franson, Ranger and Fraser would be better than how it is right now. (by a country mile).

I would personally consider getting Dan Boyle (his age/experience would help the blue line) and Dan Girardi this summer.

 

[TMLegend]

This isn't 2010 anymore, you can stop trying to convince yourself that Seguin is leaps and bounds better than Kessel,

I don't have to convince myself of it, because he's already as good as Kessel and will likely surpass him in the near future.

And just so I understand you correctly, the d-man you speak of is the same one who hasn't even proven himself yet?

Not like he can be any worse than the garbage we send out there every game.

We don't need a rebuild, but we need alot of things.

1) A new coach

It's a personnel problem, not a coaching problem.

2) Replace Bozak with an actual top 6C

Where do we get said player to center the top line?

3) A new stay at home top 4 D

Who?

4) Get rid of Mark Fraser and Paul Ranger

Fraser yes. Ranger is actually an NHL-level defender.

A rebuilding team doesn't take the ECF Boston bruins to game 7 overtime

Ever think it was a fluke? Leafs are playing like a lottery team and without the goaltenders, they would be one.

It's looking more and more like making the playoffs last season was a abberation due to the shortened season.

 

[shakes]

Yeh, keep losing every year so that they can be as good as the Oilers. That's a fantastic approach. Foster a losing environment that will be around the young players for years to come.

This is a good team but has a coaching problem.

Also, what the hell are people still doing the Seguin/Kessel thing for? There would be no change in where the Leafs are and the guy has been traded since being "traded" by the Leafs. Don't know why I came in here or posted.. probably won't be back. Very much a "woe is me/troll" thread.

 

[Morbo]

And you're plan to acquire these 2 are? You're paying for them with? Who's any good that teams are willing to trade?

And your plan is....to dismantle and tank? now? with a ton of young players? to get those 2 guys?

 

[TMLegend]

Yeh, keep losing every year so that they can be as good as the Oilers. That's a fantastic approach. Foster a losing environment that will be around the young players for years to come.

This is a good team but has a coaching problem.

Also, what the hell are people still doing the Seguin/Kessel thing for? There would be no change in where the Leafs are and the guy has been traded since being "traded" by the Leafs. Don't know why I came in here or posted.. probably won't be back. Very much a "woe is me/troll" thread.

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