Race to the bottom - Rebuild thread #2.
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Rants Mulliniks
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- Jun 22, 2008
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Interesting. You seem to put all these parameters on what is considered a good tank.
Like you have to draft top 5 and keep those players long term.
Far as I see it, tanking is nothing more then blowing up your roster for picks and prospect, preferably 1rst,2nd rounders and the lower the better.
Once drafted it means little to me if that player is kept or not, if you use that valuable young asset to shore up or tweek your roster, IE Schenn,Schenn for Richards,JVR,, then so be it. Those trades don't happen if you don't have the young piece to trade.
14 1rst rounders between 2001/2009,,,9 draft years
11 2nds,9 drafts
12 3rds,9 drafts
With some of those 1rsts slotting in at 2,4,5,11,11,13
Adding an extra 5 1rsts, 2 2nds and 3 3rds and keeping all you started with in 9 seasons and seeing the low draft slots, looks like a tank to me.
Like I said, all "tanking" has ever meant to me is blow out your roster for picks/prospects and try to draft low/high.
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LA between 2001/2009
9 drafts
14 ,,,1rst
11 ,,,2nds
12 ,,,,3rds
Some high slots 2,4,5,11,11,13
Looks to me like they striped down their roster and drafted high.Looks like a "Tank" to me.
Just to add to your post.
I'd say we're around where LA was in 06 in terms of players assets. A direction comparison can't be made but just like they had with a few nice pieces of a long term core so do we.
But LA strategically took a step back and stripped the team down a bit more in hopes of a better future (which did come).
Sept 06: current top 4 Gleason and 3rd line center Belanger traded for top prospect Jack Johnson + cap dump Oleg Teverdosky
June 08: over 30 year old Visnovsky and his high cap hit traded for mid 20s Jarret Stoll and young potential number 4 Dman Matt Greene
June 08: Cammalleri coming off a PPG season + 28th overall traded for 12th overall + Calgary 2nd rounder
From 06-08 drafts: Simmonds, Doughty, Voynov, Schenn. All instrumental in turning the Kings around either as a member of the team or as a key asset in a trade.
The Kings took a strategic step back for players who weren't part of their long term core to gain picks, top prospects to eventually take a giant step forward.
But here are some fans are worried about if we lose non-core building blocks like Raymond, Kulemin, McClement yet are likely the same fans who scream that we should have been in on Carter, Richards, Staal, Seguin trades yet probably want to trade things to those teams that aren't desirable assets.
In every one of those trades involving top centers it was top prospects and picks in the first two rounds that were involved. Even our Kessel trade is another example. If we're going to eventually acquire a top center of Dman we need to have those types of assets which Kulemin, McClement, Raymond would help with by giving us additional picks to include in deal (either our own or the additional picks).
Even our own Bolland and Bernier trades involved a cheap young player in Frattin + picks in the first two rounds.
This thread is really, really pathetic.
Cheer for the Oilers. Right up your alley.
I'll take the playoffs thanks.
Cheer for the Oilers. Right up your alley.
I'll take the playoffs thanks.
Morrow, Jagr, Roy, 3rd rounder
Converted to Joe Morrow, Kevin Connautan, 2nd round pick, Lane Mcdermid, Cody Payne, 1st rounder
Yes, the Stars traded Eriksson but the deal above allowed the Stars to easily put in good but not elite prospects Joe Morrow + Rielly Smith as important pieces in the package for Seguin.
I'd hate for us to be able to build up asset depth this year at the deadline to easily be able to put a few of our good but not great prospects like Gauthier, Percy, Finn, Leivo, 1st or 2nd rounders in a trade offer or be able to deal someone like a Lupul, Gardiner, Franson cause of extra asset depth.
Deal the pending UFAs in Kulemin, Raymond, McClement at the very least this deadline is the right move. The extra picks we gain from them are more important than bringing them back as extended vets who are just a year older and more expensive.
Converted to Joe Morrow, Kevin Connautan, 2nd round pick, Lane Mcdermid, Cody Payne, 1st rounder
Yes, the Stars traded Eriksson but the deal above allowed the Stars to easily put in good but not elite prospects Joe Morrow + Rielly Smith as important pieces in the package for Seguin.
I'd hate for us to be able to build up asset depth this year at the deadline to easily be able to put a few of our good but not great prospects like Gauthier, Percy, Finn, Leivo, 1st or 2nd rounders in a trade offer or be able to deal someone like a Lupul, Gardiner, Franson cause of extra asset depth.
Deal the pending UFAs in Kulemin, Raymond, McClement at the very least this deadline is the right move. The extra picks we gain from them are more important than bringing them back as extended vets who are just a year older and more expensive.
The Shrike
Registered User
According to Healey, the Black Hawks are Gods on ice, who are so uber talented that the Leafs pitiful talent pool doesn't even warrant a mention. I guess that puts him firmly in the rebuild camp....with the caveat that he is the GM of course, seeing as ex NHL media types (see Mario Tremblay) with big mouths are obviously far more qualified to do the job than existing NHL executives.
King Mapes
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11-13th aren't high picks.
Tanking is like what Pittsburgh did or Oilers are doing. LA barely had any high picks and they are good because they draft and develop goalies extremely well and their best forward wasn't a top 10 pick. They just draft very well
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If it makes you feel better call it a "retool", "reorg", "strategic reallocation of assets", "building for a future time period" but anyway you want to slice it they took a step back to later take a giant step forward.
King Mapes
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Big difference between retool and tanking. Did they retool? Yes. Did they tank? No.
Pending UFA who's 31 meaning he's a win now type of player (and who will expect to get paid top dollar for what he brings to the team).
Looking at other PK specialists like Betts, Pahlsson, Smithson, Steckel and how quickly they become not even NHL caliber players well before their 35th bday I wouldn't count on McClement having more than a few years left.
His hands already aren't NHL caliber.
St. Louis was able to move on from. Colorado was able to move on from him. And the Leafs can move on from him and the picks we'd get for him that will be multi year assets our more important.
Rants Mulliniks
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- Jun 22, 2008
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Not my parameters, people refer to Pittsburgh and Chicago as the model.
So what did LA "blow up" and when did it start and finish?
What an overall bad, bad post.
You are making the Leafs sound like they are a decade away from contending. They're not that far, and need to establish defensive minded players.
He's expecting to get paid top dollar? Just like he got paid "top dollar" to come to the Leafs as a free agent?
Lastly, addressing your comments about St. Louis and Colorado "moving on from him". Mcclement was part of a blockbuster trade. He was not just a throw in, but obviously was a major part of the deal to acquire Shattenkirk and Stewart. Colorado never gave up on him, he decided to come to Toronto, back home.
Mcclement is an important part of the team and will not require too much money or term.
trading Mclement is a terrible idea, he's our best defensive fwd and best PKer and probably our smartest, most hard working player. There is no reason to believe he won't resign here for a reasonable price, this is his hometown and he's played the best hockey of his career here.
jamesdolla
Registered User
Only because the east blows. This leafs core will never win a cup, I can put the house on that.
Good thing Nonis traded 3 picks for Bolland so Chi town could pick those type of players.. lol
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The Caveman
We are all the goat
Which is my point about trading assets while they have value. Bolland had good value. Looking at the Leafs, they were missing a vet who knows how to win, and a center, so the trade-off was not bad. Just look at our record without him.
The question is "how will Nonis use our assets to acquire assets that this organization needs."
They could be draft picks to replace those traded away, a top 4 RHD, whatever.
We have Franson, Kulemin, two good young goalies.. all could be used to acquire things we need.
Boston had the balls to trade Seguin. Hawks to trade Bolland. Nonis' tough job is to figure out which of our good assets should be used. Tough job.
basically this. with our scouting in the early rounds being hit or miss, a rebuild might take a decade. i don't think we are the worst because we did pick rask and steen, etc.
the other thing to note is that we already have a ton of first rounders in the lineup, several are top 10 (jvr, kessel, kadri, etc.).
and we have 3 potential top 4 d coming up (granberg, percy, finn), so why is essentially to tank to draft another d who might not pan out and be 4 years away. we also have potential stars in gardiner and reilly already in the lineup, and potential grit in macwilliam.
we could have gotten saad or jenner instead of biggs like many pointed out, so it is more about preserving your picks rather than tanking.
right now, i think it's more about asset management rather than acquisition. i think most of it falls on r.c.'s stubbornness.
Leafidelity
Existentially Drifting
Glenn Isildur Healy
Registered User
Whether I think they should rebuild or not, being 5 pts ahead of 9th should not excuse a team from rebuilding
The Toronto Raptors are a half game back from leading the division and their GM is trying to dismantle their team
Or maybe, just maybe, I don't want this team to continue dwelling in mediocrity like they have been for an half decade. (Century)
Trading away picks isn't the solution. It never has been, and it never will be.
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