Prospect Info: Sharks Prospect Info & Discussion Megathread XXI: "New, improved, and wayyyy too much info" Edition

matt trick

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The concept of Schaefer, Dickinson, Muk, +1 of Cagnoni/Pohlkamp/Thompson is an interesting one. I don't know that I've seen a competitive team that young at defense.

The Stars were pretty young at D last year with Heiskanen (23), Harley (20), Lindell (29), Lundqvist (22), but also had Suter (39) and Hakanapa (30). Heiskanen had been a #1 d-man for two years prior to that.

I wonder if in addition to a guy like Borgen/Ekblad this summer, if you extend Walman, and look for a quality vet #6 or 7.

Walman
Dickinson
Schaefer
Muk
Borgen/Ekblad
Vet
Pohlkamp/Thompson/Cagnoni
 

Cas

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That's right, thank you for the correction. Cagnoni could because he's a late birthday though, correct? There's not some other obscure rule I'm forgetting?
Yes, the rule is that players drafted out of the CHL must turn 20 before 1 January in order to be eligible to play in the AHL (although they are also eligible to play after their CHL team's season is over, provided there are any AHL games left for them - Ivan Chekhovich did that twice, for example).

The NHL-SHL transfer agreement requires any SHL-drafted player (which will inevitibly include players who are under contract to an SHL team, but who are playing in the Allsvenskan, J20, and other lower leagues) who was drafted after the first round to either play in the NHL or be offered back to his SHL team, until he turns 24. I'm not sure how this impacts guys if their SHL contract expires prior to age 24, or how player rights work in Sweden, but the gist is that lower-level Swedish prospects are more likely to stay in Sweden, rather than play in the AHL. For us, this affects Sahlin Wallenius, Hävelid, Landen, Jacobsson, but only the former three are at all relevant and Hävelid might be playing his way entirely out of relevance.
 

sampler

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Halts to London is a surprise to me. I thought he had a strong start and just got a little banged up...

As for the D, I dont think Dick will be ready next year for NHL duties. He was a LONG way away this past camp, and while I know hes crushing the OHL, its a massive leap that few players, especially D, make successfully. The NCAA, especially a top 10 program like a Denver, BU, BC, etc, would be a perfect landing spot for Dick next year most likely. You give him a look at camp, and then if it doesnt work, NCAA.

As for Cagnoni, I would assume one more year in the A, but he too should get a serious look at camp.

As for Pohlcamp, Same. Very serious look at camp, and then another college year. The AHL is not a terrible spot for him too.

I dont write in Mukh just yet. I am not sold on him....

I think competition is the key. The sharks have thompson, Cagnoni, Dickinson, Pohlcamp, Mukh, and Thrun all competing for NHL spots. This is a very good thing, and I like the idea of having the winner(s) make the NHL and the loser(s) play in the AHL so they can be called up quickly.

Next Summer, obviously well still have walman, Ferraro, and Lilj, but I think it would be wise to add one more top pair vet for big money. Even this year, when fully healthy, if they had one more top vet they'd be a respectable back end.

Im more worried about the O right now. Cherny isnt playing, Musty is rusty, Bystedt is hurt. Halts is back in london. Gush, Cards, and Bords havent grabbed a job yet... Basically there doesnt seem to be any clear top 6 forwards coming up next year. Lund and the above are possible, but nothing clear. I think the sharks need to shop next summer, and if possible draft another high end forward. Eklund, Celly, and Smith are a solid core, but we could use another high end player coming up.
 

Juxtaposer

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The concept of Schaefer, Dickinson, Muk, +1 of Cagnoni/Pohlkamp/Thompson is an interesting one. I don't know that I've seen a competitive team that young at defense.

The Stars were pretty young at D last year with Heiskanen (23), Harley (20), Lindell (29), Lundqvist (22), but also had Suter (39) and Hakanapa (30). Heiskanen had been a #1 d-man for two years prior to that.

I wonder if in addition to a guy like Borgen/Ekblad this summer, if you extend Walman, and look for a quality vet #6 or 7.

Walman
Dickinson
Schaefer
Muk
Borgen/Ekblad
Vet
Pohlkamp/Thompson/Cagnoni
The idea of Ekblad is really attractive, I just think that the contract it would take to convince him to sign here would age extremely badly extremely quickly.

I wouldn't really strongly consider extending Walman simply because of our depth a LHD, even if we don't get Schaefer. The more I look at the UFA market, the more I think a trade is going to be the way to go eventually to get that top-4 vet righty. Rasmus Andersson is a UFA in 2026, he's the only guy who really looks appealing.

As far as trade targets go, there's a few possibilities. Bruins fans seem to be done with Brandon Carlo, maybe he needs a change of scenery. A bunch of guys on NYI could potentially be available if they rebuild, Dobson obviously the most expensive but Pulock could be interesting. Parayko, Cernak, Whitecloud, Pionk? Man, the RHD situation in the NHL is dire, I feel like Ceci/Liljegren/Thompson might even be decent.
 

Cas

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I also just realized (embarrassingly late) that Dickinson will never be NCAA-eligible. He's signed an NHL contract and is now a pro. Same with Musty and Halttunen.
 
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Pinkfloyd

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I think Pohlkamp should do another year of college to be honest. Dickinson and Cagnoni will be pushing for NHL roster spots (along with a hopefully established Mukhamadullin), so I don't think there's really a spot for Pohlkamp on the Sharks even if he could make it. Don't want half your D to be 20 year olds, that's never a recipe for success. Let him spend one more NCAA season as The Guy for Denver once Buium leaves before turning pro.

Speaking of Pohlkamp, here's an excerpt from a recent EP article on Denver's dominance this season:


Really the only concern I have for him is his speed. He's on the smaller end but quite physical despite that and plays a super competitive, high-octane style.
Do you see one of Cagnoni, Dickinson, or Mukhamadullin playing their off-side in the NHL?
 

coooldude

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Walman-Liljegren
Mukhamadullin-UFA/trade target/maybe re-sign Ceci
Dickinson-Thompson
Cagnoni
Right, I forgot about the AHL rule, thanks for setting me straight. In that case, Dick is the question mark, but I still guess that he'd go back to the OHL and Thrun is in your lineup in his place.

As I wrote -- fully agreed that we need that 2RD (Ceci or someone else)
Unfortunately neither Dickinson nor Schaefer is AHL eligible. OHL or NHL for both.
yep, thanks.
Pretty sure Schaefer (for two years) can't be in the AHL, same for Dickinson (for one year) due to the same rule affecting Musty this year.
Yep, my bad, thanks.
 

matt trick

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The idea of Ekblad is really attractive, I just think that the contract it would take to convince him to sign here would age extremely badly extremely quickly.

I wouldn't really strongly consider extending Walman simply because of our depth a LHD, even if we don't get Schaefer. The more I look at the UFA market, the more I think a trade is going to be the way to go eventually to get that top-4 vet righty. Rasmus Andersson is a UFA in 2026, he's the only guy who really looks appealing.

As far as trade targets go, there's a few possibilities. Bruins fans seem to be done with Brandon Carlo, maybe he needs a change of scenery. A bunch of guys on NYI could potentially be available if they rebuild, Dobson obviously the most expensive but Pulock could be interesting. Parayko, Cernak, Whitecloud, Pionk? Man, the RHD situation in the NHL is dire, I feel like Ceci/Liljegren/Thompson might even be decent.

It'll probably take 7x$6.5M to be considered, and as a high tax state that's years away it'll likely require SJ going to $8 or $8.5M.

Something I've noticed is that not everyone actually has four top 4 d-men. Even several of the contending teams (or NHL offseason cup champs) don't:

Edmonton: Bouchard, Nurse, Ekholm
Florida: Forsling, Ekblad, Mikkola....Kulikov was years ago...
Carolina: Slavin, Burns, Orlov; Ghost/Chatfield (both nice #5s)
Dallas: Heiskanen, Harley, Lindell...Lybushkin/Dumba
Nashville: Josi, Skjei, Carrier....Lauzon
Toronto: McCabe, Reilly, Tanev...OEL
Vancouver: Hughes, Hronek, Myers....Forbort

Have Four Top 4 D-men: Winnipeg, Minnesota, Boston, Vegas, Colorado, Utah, Tampa, Washington, Rangers, Islanders, Devils, Sabres, Kings, Philly, Ottawa, NJD (closer to 6 than 4).

If you can plug in two draft picks in your top 3 for a decade, you have a pretty big head start on most teams, and nobody but Dallas and Minnesota have 3 home grown top 4 d-men.

Non-contending teams who don't have 4 top 4: San Jose (we have two), Pittsburgh (Grzelcyk), CBJ (Fabbro), Buffalo (Samuelson), Calgary (Miramonov), Ducks (Dumolin/Gudas), Montreal (Savard), Detroit (Chiraiot/Petry).

Half the league is likely content with their top 4, and even those probably wouldn't mind an upgrade on the bottom pair.

I'm also convinced for this reason that Ferraro, Walman, Liljigren, Ceci and Trouba (if we pick him up) will have markets this deadline or next.

If we're lucky enough to get Schaefer, I do think we'll need a few quality vets to shepherd in him and BDE.
 
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Hodge

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I wonder what it would cost to acquire the Miller-Trouba pairing from the Rangers next summer. They need to clear cap to account for Igor and Laf's extensions.

Musty + Ferraro + our 2nd + something else?
 
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coooldude

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I'm also convinced that Ferraro, Walman, Liljigren, Ceci and Trouba (if we pick him up) will have markets this deadline or next.
Personally, I don't think we'll move off of Walman, Lily, or maybe even Ceci at this point in the rebuild. I think they only move if we replace them with better vets, and they are placeholders until our prospects kick them out of their top spots.

Ferraro I think we try to move... but Walman is our best D, Lily and Ceci probably competing for #2. If we move them for call it a 2nd or 3rd at the deadline, we have an even worse defensive corps next year or the year after, UNLESS the kids are fully ready to step into a top 4 role, OR we add someone else in free agency. Because the team is going to keep trying to take steps forward, and even when you're trying it's still hard to do so, I doubt we continue to fire sale our players at the deadline. Tangentially this is why I think we end up signing Granlund unless we get a 1st.
If we're lucky enough to get Schaefer, I do think we'll need a few quality vets to shepherd in him and BDE.
Absolutely, hence my point above. But Schaefer almost certainly goes back to OHL for D+1.
 
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Juxtaposer

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It'll probably take 7x$6.5M to be considered, and as a high tax state that's years away it'll likely require SJ going to $8 or $8.5M.

Something I've noticed is that not everyone actually has four top 4 d-men. Even several of the contending teams (or NHL offseason cup champs) don't:

Edmonton: Bouchard, Nurse, Ekholm
Florida: Forsling, Ekblad, Mikkola....Kulikov was years ago...
Carolina: Slavin, Burns, Orlov; Ghost/Chatfield (both nice #5s)
Dallas: Heiskanen, Harley, Lindell...Lybushkin/Dumba
Nashville: Josi, Skjei, Carrier....Lauzon
Toronto: McCabe, Reilly, Tanev...OEL
Vancouver: Hughes, Hronek, Myers....Forbort

Have Four Top 4 D-men: Winnipeg, Minnesota, Boston, Vegas, Colorado, Utah, Tampa, Washington, Rangers, Islanders, Devils, Sabres, Kings, Philly, Ottawa, NJD (closer to 6 than 4).

If you can plug in two draft picks in your top 3 for a decade, you have a pretty big head start on most teams, and nobody but Dallas and Minnesota have 3 home grown top 4 d-men.

Non-contending teams who don't have 4 top 4: San Jose (we have two), Pittsburgh (Grzelcyk), CBJ (Fabbro), Buffalo (Samuelson), Calgary (Miramonov), Ducks (Dumolin/Gudas), Montreal (Savard), Detroit (Chiraiot/Petry).

Half the league is likely content with their top 4, and even those probably wouldn't mind an upgrade on the bottom pair.

I'm also convinced for this reason that Ferraro, Walman, Liljigren, Ceci and Trouba (if we pick him up) will have markets this deadline or next.

If we're lucky enough to get Schaefer, I do think we'll need a few quality vets to shepherd in him and BDE.
The state of defense in the NHL is definitely pretty dire. Lineups are more top-heavy than ever in general, but you're completely right that a lot of genuinely good teams do not have four top-4 defensemen.

That's why I think Schaefer rounds it out. I actually low-key think that Ceci/Liljegren/Thompson is a pretty solid right side for a legit playoff team if the left side is as good as Schaefer/Dickinson/Mukhamadullin/Cagnoni project to be and the forward group and goaltending are strengths.

I wonder what it would cost to acquire the Miller-Trouba pairing from the Rangers next summer. They need to clear cap to account for Igor and Laf's extensions.

Musty + Ferraro + our 2nd + something else?
Why do we want Miller? Just another lefty who isn't great defensively. I would take Trouba if he'd waive for us.
 
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matt trick

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Personally, I don't think we'll move off of Walman, Lily, or maybe even Ceci at this point in the rebuild. I think they only move if we replace them with better vets, and they are placeholders until our prospects kick them out of their top spots.

Ferraro I think we try to move... but Walman is our best D, Lily and Ceci probably competing for #2. If we move them for call it a 2nd or 3rd at the deadline, we have an even worse defensive corps next year or the year after, UNLESS the kids are fully ready to step into a top 4 role, OR we add someone else in free agency. Because the team is going to keep trying to take steps forward, and even when you're trying it's still hard to do so, I doubt we continue to fire sale our players at the deadline. Tangentially this is why I think we end up signing Granlund unless we get a 1st.

Absolutely, hence my point above. But Schaefer almost certainly goes back to OHL for D+1.

Agreed- I like Walman and Lilji, but wonder if we'll have backfills for both in Dick/Muk/Schaefer and Cagnoni/Thompson by 2027-2028. Aside from maybe Ceci, I don't think we consider moving any at this time (though I'd move Ferraro). I'm tempted to re-sign Walman though, as I agree he's our best D. I don't love putting any of the kids on their offside, but 5 of the best mid-long term assets are LHD, and having one vet on the left would provide some balance. Not committed to moving any of them, but could see reasons for any/all of the vets to be moved if we can upgrade. Grier's done an amazing job building an NHL-caliber D. Hopefully he can get that to league average as the next iteration.

Also agree on Schaefer going back for D+1. 18 year old NHL D-men is almost unheard of. Chychrun, Bogosian, Drysdale, and Ekblad did it. And I wonder if they'd have been better developing for a bit longer. Hanifin (NCAA) and Dahlin (SHL) also did it. Not sure if this is worth noting, but none of those guys won a Norris.

19 year old NHL d-men include Karlsson, Hedman, Werenski, Myers, Heiskanen, Sergachev, Dobson (34 games), Carlson (22 games), Hughes, Girard, OEL (48 games), D. Hamilton (42 games), and Vlasic. Three norris winners and two guys who were finalists (Heiskanen/Carlson). Hamilton, Vlasic, Dobson, OEL, and Werenski have all been top 10 in Norris voting.
 
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Hodge

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The state of defense in the NHL is definitely pretty dire. Lineups are more top-heavy than ever in general, but you're completely right that a lot of genuinely good teams do not have four top-4 defensemen.

That's why I think Schaefer rounds it out. I actually low-key think that Ceci/Liljegren/Thompson is a pretty solid right side for a legit playoff team if the left side is as good as Schaefer/Dickinson/Mukhamadullin/Cagnoni project to be and the forward group and goaltending are strengths.


Why do we want Miller? Just another lefty who isn't great defensively. I would take Trouba if he'd waive for us.
Miller is 25, would be our best defenseman by a mile and has all the tools to be a 1D someday. These guys can take longer to reach their peak form as we saw with Burns. IIRC Miller also converted from forward to defense relatively late in his development. If we can buy low in terms of both acquisition cost (further offset by taking on Trouba) and Miller's next contract at worst we've secured a young top 4 dman on a good contract but IMO there's still untapped upside there too.

As for him being left handed, in the unlikely event that ALL of Dickinson, Mukhamadullin, Cagnoni and Schaefer (if we even draft him) develop into legit top 4 defensemen we could either move 1-2 of them to the off side or trade them for right shot D if handedness becomes that much of an issue. Not really worth thinking about because they're not all going to hit.
 

Grinner

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I wonder what it would cost to acquire the Miller-Trouba pairing from the Rangers next summer. They need to clear cap to account for Igor and Laf's extensions.

Musty + Ferraro + our 2nd + something else?
No Interest in bringing in another teams underachieving player.
 
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Original22

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I have not fully read up on the CHL - NCAA transfer info, but could it create a loophole that opens up a path to the AHL? Obviously not for the likes of Dickinson or Musty since they are already signed but say the following example:

Sharks draft Schaefer
Schaefer "commits" to BU
Sharks sign Schaefer to an entry level contract before the BU season starts
Sharks assign Schaefer to the AHL after training camp

Or would the original CHL agreements kick in here?

Now I am not saying Schaefer would necessarily be better suited to the AHL like Musty probably was this year, just using him as an example.
 
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timorous me

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Miller is 25, would be our best defenseman by a mile and has all the tools to be a 1D someday. These guys can take longer to reach their peak form as we saw with Burns. IIRC Miller also converted from forward to defense relatively late in his development. If we can buy low in terms of both acquisition cost (further offset by taking on Trouba) and Miller's next contract at worst we've secured a young top 4 dman on a good contract but IMO there's still untapped upside there too.

As for him being left handed, in the unlikely event that ALL of Dickinson, Mukhamadullin, Cagnoni and Schaefer (if we even draft him) develop into legit top 4 defensemen we could either move 1-2 of them to the off side or trade them for right shot D if handedness becomes that much of an issue. Not really worth thinking about because they're not all going to hit.
I think the Rangers value Miller pretty highly as they see that potential and see a long-term 1-2 punch with him and Fox. It's a question mark as to whether or not he's peaked or has another level to his game--watching him a lot, I do like him, but often feel like there should be more offense and the defensive lapses should be waning by now--and it's going to be fascinating to see what the Rangers do with him contractually.

But if he does get traded, I imagine it will be for a significant price.
 

Hodge

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No Interest in bringing in another teams underachieving player.
You're not getting a 25 year old 6'5" 210lb defenseman who skates like Miller and has established himself as a top 4 defenseman on a winning team unless he's underachieving.
 

coooldude

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I have not fully read up on the CHL - NCAA transfer info, but could it create a loophole that opens up a path to the AHL? Obviously not for the likes of Dickinson or Musty since they are already signed but say the following example:
My understanding is that the CBA needs to be renegotiated in order to create a transfer protocol between AHL and CHL for players under 20. But also, it sounds like everyone wants this to happen (except the NCAA). There would be no loophole.
 

Juxtaposer

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Miller is 25, would be our best defenseman by a mile and has all the tools to be a 1D someday. These guys can take longer to reach their peak form as we saw with Burns. IIRC Miller also converted from forward to defense relatively late in his development. If we can buy low in terms of both acquisition cost (further offset by taking on Trouba) and Miller's next contract at worst we've secured a young top 4 dman on a good contract but IMO there's still untapped upside there too.

As for him being left handed, in the unlikely event that ALL of Dickinson, Mukhamadullin, Cagnoni and Schaefer (if we even draft him) develop into legit top 4 defensemen we could either move 1-2 of them to the off side or trade them for right shot D if handedness becomes that much of an issue. Not really worth thinking about because they're not all going to hit.
I don't really see #1D upside in Miller. I think he's better than his season thus far suggests, but I don't think he's any more than a good middle pairing guy.
 
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Grinner

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You're not getting a 25 year old 6'5" 210lb defenseman who skates like Miller and has established himself as a top 4 defenseman on a winning team unless he's underachieving.
Just what our locker room needs.
If he's all that, then why would the Rangers move him?
 
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Star Platinum

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Yes, the rule is that players drafted out of the CHL must turn 20 before 1 January in order to be eligible to play in the AHL (although they are also eligible to play after their CHL team's season is over, provided there are any AHL games left for them - Ivan Chekhovich did that twice, for example).

The NHL-SHL transfer agreement requires any SHL-drafted player (which will inevitibly include players who are under contract to an SHL team, but who are playing in the Allsvenskan, J20, and other lower leagues) who was drafted after the first round to either play in the NHL or be offered back to his SHL team, until he turns 24. I'm not sure how this impacts guys if their SHL contract expires prior to age 24, or how player rights work in Sweden, but the gist is that lower-level Swedish prospects are more likely to stay in Sweden, rather than play in the AHL. For us, this affects Sahlin Wallenius, Hävelid, Landen, Jacobsson, but only the former three are at all relevant and Hävelid might be playing his way entirely out of relevance.
That's good knowledge
 

sampler

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Personally, I don't think we'll move off of Walman, Lily, or maybe even Ceci at this point in the rebuild. I think they only move if we replace them with better vets, and they are placeholders until our prospects kick them out of their top spots.

Ferraro I think we try to move... but Walman is our best D, Lily and Ceci probably competing for #2. If we move them for call it a 2nd or 3rd at the deadline, we have an even worse defensive corps next year or the year after, UNLESS the kids are fully ready to step into a top 4 role, OR we add someone else in free agency. Because the team is going to keep trying to take steps forward, and even when you're trying it's still hard to do so, I doubt we continue to fire sale our players at the deadline. Tangentially this is why I think we end up signing Granlund unless we get a 1st.

Absolutely, hence my point above. But Schaefer almost certainly goes back to OHL for D+1.
Its way too early to walk about moving Lily or Walman. Both are signed through next year and I think the sharks are going to try to compete for the PO's next year with the kids having experience, and much of the draft haul of the last two years entering NHL consideration. If they try to win in '25-'26, but falter, then they can move those guys in March '26.

Anyone they draft in '25 will play in their respective draft league. There is no one good enough to pull a celebrini, I think.

As for Granny, if the sharks keep faltering this year, it makes sense to move him no matter what. They can always resign him over the summer after renting him out. No rule against trading him for a pick, then grabbing him back on July 1. Just "sign" a gentlemen's agreement.

Lastly, I expect the sharks will go shopping next summer. I know its tough to land high end UFAs, but I think Grier will at least try hard to land at least one top 4 D and one top 6F, or more if possible. Sharks are projected to have 30M in cap space already with a #1G signed (askarov), 6 top 9 forwards in Smith, Celly, Eklund, Zetterlund (RFA, say 5M per), Toffoli, Wennberg, along with Walman, Lijegren, Ferraro, Thompson (RFA, say 1.5M per), and thrun.

They can also likely count on at least 1 of Dick, Cagnoni, Pohlcamp, and Mukh taking an NHL spot.

This would mean that the sharks would have 30M to add likely two top 6/9 forwards, and one top 4D, along with filling out the roster (#2G and a couple 4th liners). That's a very possible haul. Rantanen, Marner, Bennett, Ehlers, Boeser and a few others are out there as of now. Doubt they will hit the market, and doubt the sharks can land them, but you never know. Pionk, Pettersson, Ekblad, and a few others are also out there as of now too. Not sure the sharks can make a run at those level players, but I hope grier tries.

With all the 1 goal games this year, it feels like they are only a few guys from flipping those scores to wins. a couple more scorers. one or two more D, along with natural development of the kids. This year is too soon, but next year feels very possible, and they definitely should target the PO's before the Celly and Smith ELCs expire, otherwise, they will stink AND face a big cost increase and the rebuild will go forever.

Toffoli, Walman, Ceci, and Lilj have made a nice difference so far. Smith and celly have not been the main difference between last year and this year, but instead those added quality vets, especially on D. Seems to me like we need to add a strategic few more, and we'll have tons of space to do it.
 

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