Question for the fire Dubas crowd, who is available that is an upgrade and isn't inexperienced?

[thewave]

Let Shanahan do it himself. There is no reason he can't.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Mike Gillis comes to mind. Imagine having Gillis and Trotz as GM and Coach.

Mike Gillis had some good drafts if I recall but was terrible with everything else

 

[Stephen]

Nobody wants Dubas fired because he was hired a rookie. Many people thought it was a mistake to hire him and have a rookie learn on the job, but it is his actual performance at the job that is the reason people want him fired.

I personally think he’s done a better than average job, but the decisions that need to be made right now are not ones he’s willing to make. He won’t fire Keefe. He won’t get get rid of Justin Holl. He keeps bringing in and retaining vanilla no-impact middle 6 players like Kerfoot, Jarnkrook, Engvall, etc. He wont fire Justin Holl into the sun. He won’t hold the top players accountable.

Even though the good outweighs the bad, it’s not enough to build a winning team. We’re in the rut Dubas put us in.

Dubas has a lot of pet ideas.

1) Big 4. Non negotiable because any trade he feels like he has to make he is going to lose as he stated. Sometimes a pure skill for something else trade is a downgrade in talent, but other attributes are also valuable. Seems like he got burned on mandate trading Kadri and got a terrible deal.

2) Culture. The Leafs have a "killer instinct" problem in the playoffs. Yet aside from Aube-Kubel, Murray to add to Muzzin and Clifford, they have zero cup winners currently. Mark Giordano for his age has very little playoff experience, with a GP total of 30, 9 fewer than Mitch Marner. (Does anyone do their homework?)

The veterans they've targeted in the past to help with winning culture, Thornton, Spezza (and before that Marleau, not Dubas' fault) were massive playoff underachievers in their careers. They didn't want Corey Perry who had just gone to the finals with Dallas, and took Wayne Simmonds, whose career was in the ditch after New Jersey and Buffalo. Nick Foligno has won jack in his career, with his most notable accomplishment probably being on the Columbus team that beat the Leafs. Bogosian was great, add. No complaints.

3) Size on the blueline. He seems to be very non committal about the role in which size can play. The blueline is basically a referendum on not believing in the value of having it, despite running up against big bluelines in Washington, Columbus, Montreal and Tampa. (Not really modern Boston). Does he not look at those examples and think if we had more guys who could stonewall the opposition we could still have a puck moving game? Sometimes he dabbles in Bogosian, Lyubushkin, but mostly it's just left to Holl (miscast) and poor Jake Muzzin.

4) The inert, utility middle. The buzzy, stick checking, heads up, clean play-between-the-whistles vanilla middle of the lineup that doesn't really hit, grind, wear down the opposition, but just goes about their business responsibly doing not a lot but maybe contribute some occasional offense. Don't dump and chase too much, because who wants to try and get it back once in you lose it, don't end a forecheck with a hit on the opposition D. There's no friction. See 2) you don't have "killer instinct" because you're not playing for keeps.

I'm a skill guy like Dubas in outlook but the modern Leafs under his watch has been a master class in the other stuff just because it's just painfully absent. Don't reinvent the wheel. Just make sure you understand how a wheel is supposed to work in the first place.

 

[rocketman588]

Dubas has a lot of pet ideas.

1) Big 4. Non negotiable because any trade he feels like he has to make he is going to lose as he stated. Sometimes a pure skill for something else trade is a downgrade in talent, but other attributes are also valuable. Seems like he got burned on mandate trading Kadri and got a terrible deal.

2) Culture. The Leafs have a "killer instinct" problem in the playoffs. Yet aside from Aube-Kubel, Murray to add to Muzzin and Clifford, they have zero cup winners currently. Mark Giordano for his age has very little playoff experience, with a GP total of 30, 9 fewer than Mitch Marner. (Does anyone do their homework?)

The veterans they've targeted in the past to help with winning culture, Thornton, Spezza (and before that Marleau, not Dubas' fault) were massive playoff underachievers in their careers. They didn't want Corey Perry who had just gone to the finals with Dallas, and took Wayne Simmonds, whose career was in the ditch after New Jersey and Buffalo. Nick Foligno has won jack in his career, with his most notable accomplishment probably being on the Columbus team that beat the Leafs. Bogosian was great, add. No complaints.

3) Size on the blueline. He seems to be very non committal about the role in which size can play. The blueline is basically a referendum on not believing in the value of having it, despite running up against big bluelines in Washington, Columbus, Montreal and Tampa. (Not really modern Boston). Does he not look at those examples and think if we had more guys who could stonewall the opposition we could still have a puck moving game? Sometimes he dabbles in Bogosian, Lyubushkin, but mostly it's just left to Holl (miscast) and poor Jake Muzzin.

4) The inert, utility middle. The buzzy, stick checking, heads up, clean play-between-the-whistles vanilla middle of the lineup that doesn't really hit, grind, wear down the opposition, but just goes about their business responsibly doing not a lot but maybe contribute some occasional offense. Don't dump and chase too much, because who wants to try and get it back once in you lose it, don't end a forecheck with a hit on the opposition D. There's no friction. See 2) you don't have "killer instinct" because you're not playing for keeps.

I'm a skill guy like Dubas in outlook but the modern Leafs under his watch has been a master class in the other stuff just because it's just painfully absent. Don't reinvent the wheel. Just make sure you understand how a wheel is supposed to work in the first place.

I mean shit the dude is obsessed with trying to change hockey

Even look at this preseason.

We're going to have marner at D

Two weeks ago

We're going to play 4 forwards and no goalie in OT

Last year we were going to play 3 D and 2 FWs

We should probably try to win something before we attempt to change hockey.

Just go with wickenheiser at least she has won shit

 

[fahad203]

I can create a python script that will tell the team what to do in what situations

I have more faith in that than Dubas and Keefe

It really can't be worse

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

2) Culture. The Leafs have a "killer instinct" problem in the playoffs. Yet aside from Aube-Kubel, Murray to add to Muzzin and Clifford, they have zero cup winners currently. Mark Giordano for his age has very little playoff experience, with a GP total of 30, 9 fewer than Mitch Marner. (Does anyone do their homework?)

This isn't really a fresh idea though. How many recent first-in-a-long-time Cup winners are built around Cup-winning vets poached from other teams? The Pens, Hawks, Bolts all built around their (mostly drafted) young stars who hadn't won anything until they did. It's really not unusual to wait until the deadline to add some questionable veteran presence.

The question this season is if there's even going to be any cap room available at the deadline, and if there is, it's because a big ticket like Muzzin is on LTIR leaving another hole to fill.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

So my thread gets crickets. Exactly as I thought...

Maybe do a little research and answer your own question. Or, do you think there's really absolutely no candidates with qualifications? Everybody knew you created a "I told you so" post.

 

[killer1980]

For God's sake, ANYBODY!

 

[Nineteen67]

Time to take a break from this place.

Can't imagine being this miserable/negative like many here.

This place is depressing.

This stuff is great to discuss. For a team that hasn’t been entertaining on the ice in over 20 yrs, what else is there?

Aside from a Matthews and Marner spurt of excellence you’re not going to see much to talk about with this group.

 

[mcleex]

Should have gone with Mark Hunter at the time. Running a respectable London Knights franchise

Not this bum from the Soo

 

[TorMapleJays]

I am really curious to read who @Dekes For Days would want if Dubas was to be replaced.

Lets forget that Kyle will not replace Kiefe under any circumsatances. If you are removing a GM for the failure to move a stacked lineup forward then the bar is set pretty low. This is a 100pt club with pretty much anyone in the big chair.

If you mean there are GMs that would have gone for a worse solution in goal than Matt Murray, I think not. There are not a lot of potential GMS who would have rolled their season on the choices KD did this year so not a legit arguement that he is in any way safer than than next random guy. There are a whole bunch of potential options who are not GMs now and have out clauses with their current clubs.

They wont keep Kyle because there isn't other strong candidates. There are plenty, they just don't post resumes on HFboards. He will stay because you don't turf a GM 10 games into the season. I am not a Dubaphile but it is about 40 games too early to be saying the season is lost. Marner and Matthews haven't even woke up yet and I am not sure the GM is responsible for that.

So wait until the titantic has hit it iceberg, rather then try to avoid it all together?

 

[kevsh]

I'd just add that this looks like a group that doesn't trust each other.

- The forwards don't trust that, in a tight playoff series, if they get enough goals the blueline and goalie will hold down the fort (not make a game-costing bad play, let in a soft goal, etc.)
- The D and goalie don't trust that if they do their part the stars (or just all forwards in general) will come through and score in the clutch ... and not make a bad, game-costing play
- The entire team doesn't trust each other: That if they're in a situation like game 6 in Tampa, a great comeback and a chance to clinch, that someone won't take a brutal penalty while already shorthanded (Kerfoot), make an insane blind pass on the PP (Galchenyuk vs. Montreal) that leads to a SHG, clear the puck 150 feet over the glass, again, on the PK (Marner,), or the other half-dozen times the past few years one brain cramp, soft goal, terrible penalty killed their momentum and likely led to losing the series.

As for right now, months away from the post-season, it has been suggested this uninspiring start is because the team believes the regular season is all but meaningless and that they'll turn in on when it counts.

The problem with that thinking is that it is during the regular season you build that trust in one another so that when the playoffs start each guy can look at the others and know, from experience, that each one will do his role and not cost them the series.

To tie this into the thread, I don't believe hiring a new GM right now would fix any of that immediately, (though I personally would still fire him as Dubas has already shown by his puzzling off-season moves that he doesn't get it and likely never will) but an experienced coach just might.

 

[PROUD PAPA]

I don't like the idea of an interim GM. One of the greater benefits of bringing in a new guy is he gets the opportunity to assess his team through this season and can make educated decisions in the off-season. That would be wasted with an interim GM.

 

[Stephen]

This isn't really a fresh idea though. How many recent first-in-a-long-time Cup winners are built around Cup-winning vets poached from other teams? The Pens, Hawks, Bolts all built around their (mostly drafted) young stars who hadn't won anything until they did. It's really not unusual to wait until the deadline to add some questionable veteran presence.

The question this season is if there's even going to be any cap room available at the deadline, and if there is, it's because a big ticket like Muzzin is on LTIR leaving another hole to fill.

Comparisons to the Wing, Capitals, Lightning, Penguins, Hawks are extremely superficial at this point and the Leafs aren’t selling the game to a novice audience.

Dubas’ recipe of “skill and time” might prove right in the end, but he’s done nobody any favours with the offseason he apparently just had. Now we’ll see how much they can build the team up with the LTIR money.

 

[Stephen]

I'd just add that this looks like a group that doesn't trust each other.

- The forwards don't trust that, in a tight playoff series, if they get enough goals the blueline and goalie will hold down the fort (not make a game-costing bad play, let in a soft goal, etc.)
- The D and goalie don't trust that if they do their part the stars (or just all forwards in general) will come through and score in the clutch ... and not make a bad, game-costing play
- The entire team doesn't trust each other: That if they're in a situation like game 6 in Tampa, a great comeback and a chance to clinch, that someone won't take a brutal penalty while already shorthanded (Kerfoot), make an insane blind pass on the PP (Galchenyuk vs. Montreal) that leads to a SHG, clear the puck 150 feet over the glass, again, on the PK (Marner,), or the other half-dozen times the past few years one brain cramp, soft goal, terrible penalty killed their momentum and likely led to losing the series.

As for right now, months away from the post-season, it has been suggested this uninspiring start is because the team believes the regular season is all but meaningless and that they'll turn in on when it counts.

The problem with that thinking is that it is during the regular season you build that trust in one another so that when the playoffs start each guy can look at the others and know, from experience, that each one will do his role and not cost them the series.

To tie this into the thread, I don't believe hiring a new GM right now would fix any of that immediately, (though I personally would still fire him as Dubas has already shown by his puzzling off-season moves that he doesn't get it and likely never will) but an experienced coach just might.

When it gets down to it, I just want a team that wants to show up, play hard and beat up on other top teams, middle tier teams and basement dwellers cause they love the feeling of winning. Regular season, postseason, whatever.

Not because certain games hold meaning than others - they do - but just because they want to be great. Not because it’s a referendum on their maturity or character.

 

[Gilles Meloche]

Trotz as the next GM
Assistan GM - Roberto Luongo

Coach: Rich Tocchet or Guy Boucher

None of them can be worse than what we have now

Wasn’t Boucher the backup plan as Coach if we didn’t get Babcock or am I not remembering that right??

 

[Larcos_Unal]

So my thread gets crickets. Exactly as I thought...

The Dubas fan club is pretty impatient

Fire shangan
who hires a rookie gm?

Who hires a rookie gm and then allows the gm to hire a rookie coach?? lmao

 

[ShaneFalco]

So my thread gets crickets. Exactly as I thought...

We're not hockey executives and privy to all kinds of information out there. Not sure what you were expecting ?!

 

[Nooodles]

So who is it? Personally I don't see any names out there better than Dubas.

Whoa damn, thats a sensitive question.

They dont speak of it. They just want this young piece of shit with glasses to be fired because he already achieved more by age 35 than they ever will in their life.

They have no alternative though. But who cares? Unemployed Dumbass would be the best thing ever!!

 

[ShaneFalco]

At least with the fire Keefe crowd they have Trotz to hold up as the alternative. But say you fire Dubas, who are you bringing in to make franchise altering changes and trading away prime aged star assets? You can't say "ANYONE" because that is a cop out, we all know there are MUCH worse options out there than Dubas. Image hiring an Milbury who trades Matthews for a ham sandwhich.

So who is it? Personally I don't see any names out there better than Dubas.

your whole thread is a 'cop out'

 

[hotpaws]

Whoa damn, thats a sensitive question.

They dont speak of it. They just want this young piece of shit with glasses to be fired because he already achieved more by age 35 than they ever will in their life.

They have no alternative though. But who cares? Unemployed Dumbass would be the best thing ever!!

yea we're jealous , that's why we want Dubas fired , lol

I agree with you that he's a piece of shit but i want him fired because he's done a horrid job as GM and not because he smells bad . He started off with a great hand and has accomplished nothing .

I know i shouldn't be but i'm still shocked how attached people get to incompetent employees , first it was Burke and now Dubas . I have news for you , if/when Dubas gets kicked to the curb like the piece of trash he is your life will not change in the slightest .

 

[CelticDruid]

Whoa damn, thats a sensitive question.

They dont speak of it. They just want this young piece of shit with glasses to be fired because he already achieved more by age 35 than they ever will in their life.

They have no alternative though. But who cares? Unemployed Dumbass would be the best thing ever!!

No playoff victories might have something to do with it.

Your part about his glasses was funny though.

 

[Al14]

Al's Brother

How about Al himself?

 

[Menzinger]

I don't like the idea of an interim GM. One of the greater benefits of bringing in a new guy is he gets the opportunity to assess his team through this season and can make educated decisions in the off-season. That would be wasted with an interim GM.

And interim GM would be a waste of time in this situation since obviously we wouldn't want them making any major trades regardless.

The problem with making a full GM change mid-season is that there's going to be almost no major candidates available.

Most guys will be currently under contract and likely not allowed to move on to something else until the end of the playoffs (especially if the Leafs opt to poach another teams assistant GM). Otherwise you're dependent on the current crop of unemployed people, which isn't a particularly strong group at the moment.

The question of who will be the GM for the leafs in 2023-4 will need to be settled whatever the Leafs playoffs ends. Be at a continuation of Dubas or a brand new front office

 

[HockeyVirus]

Whoa damn, thats a sensitive question.

They dont speak of it. They just want this young piece of shit with glasses to be fired because he already achieved more by age 35 than they ever will in their life.

They have no alternative though. But who cares? Unemployed Dumbass would be the best thing ever!!

We could win the cup this year and this crowd would be like "Would have been our 4th in a row if not for Dubas"