Prospect Info: Prospect Info and Discussion VIII - Future Canes and other Jurcos

[DaveG]

Peters wanted them in on every play too. Pretty sure Muller did as well but Pesce wasn’t around for that. I don’t think he means jumping in when he refers to freedom. Peters system was hyper aggressive for the D. Doesn’t make sense that the thing that’s been changed and freeing is the ability to jump up. Other than maybe Mo (?) all the coaches wanted really active D when we had the personnel to do it.

That’s not new.

In a way I see the evolution of this as similar to how the Dutch revolutionized soccer with Total Football in the 70s. The Dutch weren't really the first to play with a kind of free flowing system like the one they used (Hungary in the 50s and a few different club teams) but they were the first to be just so adaptive in how they played to the point that position was little more than suggestion instead of the players actual role.

Similarly I think much like that example Brindy is building on elements of previous coaches in terms of the style of play he wants. There's a lot of similarity to Peters system but even then that felt a good bit more structured overall. Rod definitely utilizes the basis of that system but to me we're just more free flowing as a variation of it if that makes any sense. Some of that makes sense from a personnel standpoint: both coaches had Pesce and Slavin but they're both 24-25 now and entering their prime, not 22. He had Faulk and a late career Liles, both very good players but not on the tier of Dougie and Gardner respectively. And that's not even touching on the forwards, so no telling how Peters would have adapted to the increased skill level. Just using his Calgary team last year as an example though it still would have been more structured overall.

 

[DaveG]

I'm convinced Bill Peters wasn't successful here because he's a dick.

Won't disagree, though I have no way of knowing whether or not he's a dick, but the team his last season here had clearly tuned him out.

 

[Chrispy]

Won't disagree, though I have no way of knowing whether or not he's a dick, but the team his last season here had clearly tuned him out.

Isn't that pretty much inevitable for a coach and why nearly every coach is left go? Some may be able to stay in one place longer than others (younger Lavi, probably Peters too) before being tuned out, but losing the room (immediate cause, or proximate to play on the ice) is almost always the root of the firing.

And while Peters had the defense jumping up and playing tight gaps, I don't think I would qualify his means of doing so as "giving freedom to play." Some of this may be comparisons; I think just about any coach will seem like freedom and free-wheeling after Peters.

@bleedgreen , if you have a team that can react spontaneously to a situation it's much harder to anticipate and react in response. Peters wanted his team to react in a certain way to a certain situation, and that meant everyone knew what teammates would be doing. Including the other team with good scouting. Rod's system seems to be more of "if you see an opportunity, take it. If you see an opportunity for a D and you're a wing, cover for him!" It can take more time for the team to develop the chemistry to know when a teammate will take a chance, but it's also harder to predict how the Canes will react in a specific situation when it's less regimented than Peters was.

 

[bleedgreen]

Isn't that pretty much inevitable for a coach and why nearly every coach is left go? Some may be able to stay in one place longer than others (younger Lavi, probably Peters too) before being tuned out, but losing the room (immediate cause, or proximate to play on the ice) is almost always the root of the firing.

And while Peters had the defense jumping up and playing tight gaps, I don't think I would qualify his means of doing so as "giving freedom to play." Some of this may be comparisons; I think just about any coach will seem like freedom and free-wheeling after Peters.

@bleedgreen , if you have a team that can react spontaneously to a situation it's much harder to anticipate and react in response. Peters wanted his team to react in a certain way to a certain situation, and that meant everyone knew what teammates would be doing. Including the other team with good scouting. Rod's system seems to be more of "if you see an opportunity, take it. If you see an opportunity for a D and you're a wing, cover for him!" It can take more time for the team to develop the chemistry to know when a teammate will take a chance, but it's also harder to predict how the Canes will react in a specific situation when it's less regimented than Peters was.

I don’t disagree. I honestly feel all systems work with the right group of guys for that system, until teams adapt to it. You can make an argument we’re tougher to adapt to if we have little structure and bunch of guys free wheeling. My original point was just pondering how good a thing it is, since coaching in the first place is essentially trying to get 20 guys to not do whatever they want and follow the same game plan. That last part would be key for us, following the same game plan.

I think it’s more just the right group of guys, because most coaches that allowed freedom aren’t coaches in the nhl anymore. If the league adapts to us it’ll be interesting to see if and how we evolve.

i take it in this case as Rod knows he has a good thing and is trying to stay out if their way. I don’t think it worked last year, I really thought we were surprisingly bad in our end. We’re better so far. I think it’s a function of evening out the defense, especially the Faulk trade. Everyone seems to be where they should be, depending on how you feel about the top pair which I’m sure most like.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I'm convinced Bill Peters wasn't successful here because he's a dick.

Process over results works for older dudes but young fellows arent built that way. That wasn’t going to work here with the youngest squad in the league getting younger.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think a lot of really good points are being made here. At the end of the day it’s not so much “so-and-so is a good or bad coach” as the fit between a specific coach/system, and specific group of players. Peters had a system that was just as aggressive from the back end, but also a lot more structured. Given the right personnel, that system would have been extremely difficult to beat — even at a time when our roster was pretty lame, it held us in games and playoff races against much more developed teams. But there was an absolute ceiling to what he could have accomplished with a raw, young, largely dysfunctional group. RBA is using a much less structured system, taking advantage of a more mature and more talented group.

And when we come down to it, now’s really not the right time for judgments on RBA anyway. We’re just now starting to get real perspective on Peters, let alone the guy who’s 7 games into his second season.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Yes but does filtered water quench Rod Brind’Amour’s thirst?

 

[Jamie Craig]

I think a lot of really good points are being made here. At the end of the day it’s not so much “so-and-so is a good or bad coach” as the fit between a specific coach/system, and specific group of players. Peters had a system that was just as aggressive from the back end, but also a lot more structured. Given the right personnel, that system would have been extremely difficult to beat — even at a time when our roster was pretty lame, it held us in games and playoff races against much more developed teams. But there was an absolute ceiling to what he could have accomplished with a raw, young, largely dysfunctional group. RBA is using a much less structured system, taking advantage of a more mature and more talented group.

And when we come down to it, now’s really not the right time for judgments on RBA anyway. We’re just now starting to get real perspective on Peters, let alone the guy who’s 7 games into his second season.

I wasn't trying to judge RBA myself, I was just saying people clearly want to come play for him specifically and I think there's something to that

 

[bleedgreen]

I wasn't trying to judge RBA myself, I was just saying people clearly want to come play for him specifically and I think there's something to that

Fully agreed. Everyone who signs here seems to love him before they get here.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Fully agreed. Everyone who signs here seems to love him before they get here.

And then the weight room happens.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Fully agreed. Everyone who signs here seems to love him before they get here.

Similar to a comedian, RBA just needs to try his best to not be like pancakes...

 

[Bunch of Jurcos]

I don't think HCRB will be fired at the end of his tenure. He will probably be promoted like Francis was. He is far too valuable to our organization to let go even if we fail to take the next step. Normally I am against those types of moves but if anyone has earned it it's Rod MF Brind'amour.

 

[bleedgreen]

I like the idea of that but felt very much the same about Francis. He wasn’t fired but he was fired.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I don't think HCRB will be fired at the end of his tenure. He will probably be promoted like Francis was. He is far too valuable to our organization to let go even if we fail to take the next step. Normally I am against those types of moves but if anyone has earned it it's Rod MF Brind'amour.

I wouldn't discount the possibility that, somewhere down the line, he falls into a feud with Dundon. Because if that happens, it's going to climax in Rod punching his way through the walls of PNC like the Hulk until they have to call out the National Guard to stop him, and at that point it's going to be hard to give him a promotion.

 

[Bunch of Jurcos]

I wouldn't discount the possibility that, somewhere down the line, he falls into a feud with Dundon. Because if that happens, it's going to climax in Rod punching his way through the walls of PNC like the Hulk until they have to call out the National Guard to stop him, and at that point it's going to be hard to give him a promotion.

Puny owner?

 

[bleedgreen]

Puny owner?

someone had to.

 

[Chrispy]

I wouldn't discount the possibility that, somewhere down the line, he falls into a feud with Dundon. Because if that happens, it's going to climax in Rod punching his way through the walls of PNC like the Hulk until they have to call out the National Guard to stop him, and at that point it's going to be hard to give him a promotion.

We are pleased to announce Rod Brind'Amour will be reassigned to the Centennial Authority as Vice President in charge of capital improvements to PNC Arena.

 

[tarheelhockey]

We are pleased to announce Rod Brind'Amour will be reassigned to the Centennial Authority as Vice President in charge of capital improvements to PNC Arena.

Can't wait to see the new concourse

 

[Chrispy]

Can't wait to see the new concourse

Why are there racks of free weights on the side of every concourse?

 

[MinJaBen]

Can't wait to see the new concourse

No more seats, all fans must use the newly installed exercise bikes for the duration of the game.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Why are there racks of free weights on the side of every concourse?

No more seats, all fans must use the newly installed exercise bikes for the duration of the game.

They’re replacing “Kids Slapshot Sunday” with something called... Leg Day?

 

[My Special Purpose]

No more seats, all fans must use the newly installed exercise bikes for the duration of the game.

Else the lights go out.

 

[Bunch of Jurcos]

Else the lights go out.

Dundon so cheap...

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I'm personally of the belief that Peters (and RF, for that matter) wasn't the issue here, which is why both him and RBA are thriving as head coaches in different locales. The problem was Karmanos, goaltending, and a lack of high-percentage shooters. All of these issues have been slowly fixed over time under new, cap-ceiling spending ownership.

 

[DaveG]

They’re replacing “Kids Slapshot Sunday” with something called... Leg Day?

And why does my season ticket package say that these "leg day" games are not optional to attend?