Prospect Info: Prospect Info and Discussion VIII - Future Canes and other Jurcos

[tarheelhockey]

I'm personally of the belief that Peters (and RF, for that matter) wasn't the issue here, which is why both him and RBA are thriving as head coaches in different locales. The problem was Karmanos, goaltending, and a lack of high-percentage shooters. All of these issues have been slowly fixed over time under new, cap-ceiling spending ownership.

Basically, we had everything in place other than money and talent.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Basically, we had everything in place other than money and talent.

Well, we did have talent at the time, but we just were missing a certain type of talent. That's where the increased spending was key (other than the draft lottery luck last year).

 

[bleedgreen]

I'm personally of the belief that Peters (and RF, for that matter) wasn't the issue here, which is why both him and RBA are thriving as head coaches in different locales. The problem was Karmanos, goaltending, and a lack of high-percentage shooters. All of these issues have been slowly fixed over time under new, cap-ceiling spending ownership.

I’ve never said, “I regret that I have but one like to give”. You get the first one.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I'll get the obvious out of the way first. Francis and Peters had a hard job, and Karmanos is and was a bad owner, especially during their tenure.

I still don't completely buy that there is no or even little blame for Francis or Peters. There are teams every year that are projected to be bad that still over perform. Why couldn't Peters ever do what the Isles that were viewed as a trash heap last year were able to do? That Devils team a few years ago wasn't that good, some of the previous Colorado teams, etc.

As for Francis, he's responsible for goaltending and players with talent. It wasn't easy, but looking at the goalies he pulled off the trash heap versus the goalies we got off the trash heap these last two years, he chose poorly and that's completely on him. Unwavering faith in a mediocre or worse (by that time, not always) goalie in Ward is entirely on him. Other poor decisions in that department are on him.

Hell, Brindy and Waddell were under all the similar constraints last year and managed to pull it off, but somehow it was impossible for Francis and Peters to do the same? I just don't buy it. I wish neither Francis or Peters ill will at this point. They both seem to be in spots that are good fits for them now. But in a results oriented business, they sucked for us. Sometimes you aren't dealt the best hand, but you still can't suck forever and not have it fall on you at least some. I remember Dundon said something early on to the effect of if the results are always the same and are always bad and you have the same people around, sometimes you just have to start looking in the direction of those people.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I'm personally of the belief that Peters (and RF, for that matter) wasn't the issue here, which is why both him and RBA are thriving as head coaches in different locales. The problem was Karmanos, goaltending, and a lack of high-percentage shooters. All of these issues have been slowly fixed over time under new, cap-ceiling spending ownership.

Mostly true. I also think there seemed to be a rift between Peters and Francis at the end though. When someone posted that a couple of years ago, I balked at it back then, but as more came to light, I think it was true. And they never "over-achieved" even a little during their tenure.

Francis was committed to the "draft and develop" model and Peters wanted more NHL help now. I remember that one draft where the Canes had a lot of picks and Peters publicly said "I can't wait for Ronnie to work his magic" and "We won't be making all those picks". In the end, we pretty much made most/all of those picks. Peter openly lobbied for more talent more than once. There seemed to be a rift regarding call-ups as well. A guy would get called up and Peters would play him 5 min / game. Ronnie then stopped calling guys up and when asked by the press why, he publicly stated: "I'm not going to call guys up to play 5 minutes a night." There are other examples.

If the Canes had a bunch of talent maybe those rifts don't exist, but GMs and coaches have to be on the same page through good times and bad.

At the end of the day, talent makes or breaks a coach.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Mostly true. I also think there seemed to be a rift between Peters and Francis at the end though. When someone posted that a couple of years ago, I balked at it back then, but as more came to light, I think it was true. And they never "over-achieved" even a little during their tenure.

Francis was committed to the "draft and develop" model and Peters wanted more NHL help now. I remember that one draft where the Canes had a lot of picks and Peters publicly said "I can't wait for Ronnie to work his magic" and "We won't be making all those picks". In the end, we pretty much made most/all of those picks. Peter openly lobbied for more talent more than once. There seemed to be a rift regarding call-ups as well. A guy would get called up and Peters would play him 5 min / game. Ronnie then stopped calling guys up and when asked by the press why, he publicly stated: "I'm not going to call guys up to play 5 minutes a night." There are other examples.

If the Canes had a bunch of talent maybe those rifts don't exist, but GMs and coaches have to be on the same page through good times and bad.

At the end of the day, talent makes or breaks a coach.

This is a very good point on the situation. Their lack of cohesion as time went on really screwed up their progress as well most likely. I think they both did some positive things for the organization, but they couldn't quite bring it home.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Mostly true. I also think there seemed to be a rift between Peters and Francis at the end though. When someone posted that a couple of years ago, I balked at it back then, but as more came to light, I think it was true. And they never "over-achieved" even a little during their tenure.

Francis was committed to the "draft and develop" model and Peters wanted more NHL help now. I remember that one draft where the Canes had a lot of picks and Peters publicly said "I can't wait for Ronnie to work his magic" and "We won't be making all those picks". In the end, we pretty much made most/all of those picks. Peter openly lobbied for more talent more than once. There seemed to be a rift regarding call-ups as well. A guy would get called up and Peters would play him 5 min / game. Ronnie then stopped calling guys up and when asked by the press why, he publicly stated: "I'm not going to call guys up to play 5 minutes a night." There are other examples.

If the Canes had a bunch of talent maybe those rifts don't exist, but GMs and coaches have to be on the same page through good times and bad.

At the end of the day, talent makes or breaks a coach.

I don't disagree with you on the premise that the two had some rifts about team trajectory, among other things. I just think that many of those rifts had to do with bad ownership rather than about philosophical disagreements. One of the major reasons why RF relied on drafting-and-developing so heavily is precisely because of the purse-clutching boss behind him. Yes, he is more Cheveldayoff than he is a McPhee/Poile/Waddell, but I don't think that Francis is a natural cheapskate, either (neither is Chevy, BTW), and I think that Peters and Francis would've co-existed just fine under a Dundon-type owner.

 

[The Stranger]

RF never had unwavering support in Ward...in fact he told Ward that he was no longer part of the team's plans going forward...summer of 2015 I believe.

Ronnie just completely whiffed twice on his attempt to replace Ward.

As for Peters, he did get the team to perform well his first couple of seasons...they out-performed their on-paper talent...but they they were just a bottom barrel team from a personnel perspective.

I think if they had an average starter to pair with Ward in BP's last season, that team probably would've made the playoffs.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I wish someone would show me I'm not in their plans by giving me a two year $6+ million deal. And yes, he completely whiffed on all possibilities to replace him. That's the point. He's the reason we didn't have competent goalies those years.

And yes, the first couple of years, Peters got the team to over perform (though that's probably not a great thing in hindsight). But that didn't continue as time went on, at least in my mind.

 

[bleedgreen]

I'll get the obvious out of the way first. Francis and Peters had a hard job, and Karmanos is and was a bad owner, especially during their tenure.

I still don't completely buy that there is no or even little blame for Francis or Peters. There are teams every year that are projected to be bad that still over perform. Why couldn't Peters ever do what the Isles that were viewed as a trash heap last year were able to do? That Devils team a few years ago wasn't that good, some of the previous Colorado teams, etc.

As for Francis, he's responsible for goaltending and players with talent. It wasn't easy, but looking at the goalies he pulled off the trash heap versus the goalies we got off the trash heap these last two years, he chose poorly and that's completely on him. Unwavering faith in a mediocre or worse (by that time, not always) goalie in Ward is entirely on him. Other poor decisions in that department are on him.

Hell, Brindy and Waddell were under all the similar constraints last year and managed to pull it off, but somehow it was impossible for Francis and Peters to do the same? I just don't buy it. I wish neither Francis or Peters ill will at this point. They both seem to be in spots that are good fits for them now. But in a results oriented business, they sucked for us. Sometimes you aren't dealt the best hand, but you still can't suck forever and not have it fall on you at least some. I remember Dundon said something early on to the effect of if the results are always the same and are always bad and you have the same people around, sometimes you just have to start looking in the direction of those people.

How were Brindy and Waddell under similar constraints? There was no expectation to win because they had shipped off numerous skill players and headed into the season stuck with Darling. TD will pay anything, as long as it makes sense. I dont see how Waddell and Rod were under the same constraints as Peters and Francis. As for Francis and his unwavering faith in Ward, there weren't any other goalies for us to get at the time and we talked about that quite a bit back then. I agree I would've preferred Ward jettisoned, along with Jstaal back then but if no one wants the players and we'd have to take money back when our owner doesnt want to pay anything more than minimum while he's transitioning out what do you do? Peters couldn't do what the Isles were able to do because he didn't get the same goaltending, and didn't have Barzal, Lee and some other players at the top of their game. Comparisons like those rarely make sense as every situation is completely different obviously. Colorado was ridiculously fast, we werent at the time. The Devils had the the best forward in the league that year dominating and carrying the team. We didnt have that at the time.

Peters deserves crap for creating the two captain mess, his choices for three on three, his inability to challenge anything correctly (though he's supposed to be getting advice on this from others) and a few other things for sure. Francis gets crap for Darling, but everyone and their mother thought it was a smart play. I ironically was one of the unsure opinions that day, as I had just watched Darling in the playoffs and thought he was sloppy as hell - but the media even thought it was brilliant. Still it was his contract so he gets the tag. Rask too, though it seemed to be a good bet at the time as well. Francis made the moves the one year there were moves to be made and some of them were great. Williams and TVR. He really only had two off seasons to add to the core, and no one made any moves at all the first year. I didnt think we were ready to add anyways so I never understood the fuss that third off season.

 

[A Star is Burns]

How were Brindy and Waddell under similar constraints? There was no expectation to win because they had shipped off numerous skill players and headed into the season stuck with Darling. TD will pay anything, as long as it makes sense. I dont see how Waddell and Rod were under the same constraints as Peters and Francis. As for Francis and his unwavering faith in Ward, there weren't any other goalies for us to get at the time and we talked about that quite a bit back then. I agree I would've preferred Ward jettisoned, along with Jstaal back then but if no one wants the players and we'd have to take money back when our owner doesnt want to pay anything more than minimum while he's transitioning out what do you do? Peters couldn't do what the Isles were able to do because he didn't get the same goaltending, and didn't have Barzal, Lee and some other players at the top of their game. Comparisons like those rarely make sense as every situation is completely different obviously. Colorado was ridiculously fast, we werent at the time. The Devils had the the best forward in the league that year dominating and carrying the team. We didnt have that at the time.

Peters deserves crap for creating the two captain mess, his choices for three on three, his inability to challenge anything correctly (though he's supposed to be getting advice on this from others) and a few other things for sure. Francis gets crap for Darling, but everyone and their mother thought it was a smart play. I ironically was one of the unsure opinions that day, as I had just watched Darling in the playoffs and thought he was sloppy as hell - but the media even thought it was brilliant. Still it was his contract so he gets the tag. Rask too, though it seemed to be a good bet at the time as well. Francis made the moves the one year there were moves to be made and some of them were great. Williams and TVR. He really only had two off seasons to add to the core, and no one made any moves at all the first year. I didnt think we were ready to add anyways so I never understood the fuss that third off season.

I just mean last year they won with a team that didn't spend much at all. Those are the constraints I'm talking about.

And you just named a lot of their mistakes. Those mistakes and others are why I'm saying they earned blame, instead of those that are saying they weren't the issue. I just think it's crazy to not see that they played large roles in our failures as well.

And we'll never agree on this, because it's the same every time, but I disagree that there were no moves to make during RF's tenure.

 

[bleedgreen]

I just mean last year they won with a team that didn't spend much at all. Those are the constraints I'm talking about.

And you just named a lot of their mistakes. Those mistakes and others are why I'm saying they earned blame, instead of those that are saying they weren't the issue. I just think it's crazy to not see that they played large roles in our failures as well.

And we'll never agree on this, because it's the same every time, but I disagree that there were no moves to make during RF's tenure.

What moves that other teams made were there? Specifically in that third off season. I don’t think it’s fair to say he should’ve added a thing up to that point.

 

[A Star is Burns]

What moves that other teams made were there? Specifically in that third off season. I don’t think it’s fair to say he should’ve added a thing up to that point.

That's why we'll never agree. I think there were moves that didn't happen in the league that might have if Francis were willing to make them. There may have been moves that did happen he could have been in on, but I don't care nearly enough to go back and look at actual moves and rosters from years ago.

I think a GM with a mindset like Waddell could have made something happen and Francis couldn't or wouldn't. I still maintain that wasn't what he was comfortable with. That's just how I feel about it now and did at the time. Francis wasn't the right guy to find those trades to me.

 

[bleedgreen]

That's why we'll never agree. I think there were moves that didn't happen in the league that might have if Francis were willing to make them. There may have been moves that did happen he could have been in on, but I don't care nearly enough to go back and look at actual moves and rosters from years ago.

I think a GM with a mindset like Waddell could have made something happen and Francis couldn't or wouldn't. I still maintain that wasn't what he was comfortable with. That's just how I feel about it now and did at the time. Francis wasn't the right guy to find those trades to me.

Francis went to the draft armed with picks and publicly said he wanted to make moves that year. He came back empty handed saying few teams wanted to make moves, and that the moves they wanted all involved us giving up valueable assets in deals that neither they or we as fans would’ve approved of. As no one else was able to make any moves with the media saying exactly the same thing for all of those teams I think it’s safe to agree. Watching the frustration on TD and DW’s faces at the first day of the draft while Bob Mack is kind of chuckling about the fact they couldn’t get anyone to play ball with them to me was a bit of vindication even two years later when the market was still tight. The second day they got someone to take two of our most valuable trade assets for one player that was being run out of town with public comments by his own gm, a ufa to be they knew they couldn’t afford and we didn’t keep and a prospect their fan base knew wasn’t going to sign with us or them. Sure.....they got it done and we got a great player in Hamilton but that is questionable value. Then there’s the Skinner trade and their inability to get Faulk traded when they needed to which led to Faulk running the pp all year and Pesce asking for a trade.

I’m not clowning those moves in a regime comparison, that’s the argument about what the trade market has been like the last five years. I’m absolutely fine with Francis not paying prices like that in the third off season. 100%. The fact that you won’t come up with a single example of what he should’ve matched in other transactions or have any ideas on things we could’ve tried speaks to your general feeling here. You weren’t a fan of Francis and Peters. To me that’s fine and enough of an argument to leave at that. If you’re going to say Francis didn’t do enough and deserved to be fired I think you should at least put up some examples of why in that particular off season. He made a bunch of moves in the fourth.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Francis went to the draft armed with picks and publicly said he wanted to make moves that year. He came back empty handed saying few teams wanted to make moves, and that the moves they wanted all involved us giving up valueable assets in deals that neither they or we as fans would’ve approved of. As no one else was able to make any moves with the media saying exactly the same thing for all of those teams I think it’s safe to agree. Watching the frustration on TD and DW’s faces at the first day of the draft while Bob Mack is kind of chuckling about the fact they couldn’t get anyone to play ball with them to me was a bit of vindication even two years later when the market was still tight. The second day they got someone to take two of our most valuable trade assets for one player that was being run out of town with public comments by his own gm, a ufa to be they knew they couldn’t afford and we didn’t keep and a prospect their fan base knew wasn’t going to sign with us or them. Sure.....they got it done and we got a great player in Hamilton but that is questionable value. Then there’s the Skinner trade and their inability to get Faulk traded when they needed to which led to Faulk running the pp all year and Pesce asking for a trade.

I’m not clowning those moves in a regime comparison, that’s the argument about what the trade market has been like the last five years. I’m absolutely fine with Francis not paying prices like that in the third off season. 100%. The fact that you won’t come up with a single example of what he should’ve matched in other transactions or have any ideas on things we could’ve tried speaks to your general feeling here. You weren’t a fan of Francis and Peters. To me that’s fine and enough of an argument to leave at that. If you’re going to say Francis didn’t do enough and deserved to be fired I think you should put up some at least examples of why in that particular off season. He made a bunch of moves in the fourth.

Yeah, I'm not going to waste time looking over every transaction that happened and try to say what we should have done. And again, only looking at transactions that were made and acting like no other transactions were possible is ridiculous. Francis would have sat on his hands last off season as per usual, and if a Hamilton trade never happened because of that, you would say that no trade was available. If it went down to a different team in a similar trade, you would say it was too much to pay. Francis showed no ability to do anything other than play it safe and not make big moves.

And on the contrary about me hating them, I hated their results. I've defended Francis as a guy that could take advantage of cap strapped teams, he was good at re-signing our guys to great deals, he was good with the patient drafting and developing plan, and he was able to trade rentals for great returns. But I said from early on when I was still a fan of RF as a GM that the true test would be putting the team over the top, not just hoarding picks and prospects. He never did it. I find it odd that people say well, if we only had goaltending, but gloss over that it was his job to find it.

As for Peters, again, I was plenty a fan of his early on, but eventually, you have to be able to move forward. He didn't, and the team seemed to tune him out. He had his questionable make a save tirade. He didn't seem interested in adapting his system to players. I feel like by the end of his tenure, the structure and ability to get more out of our players was gone. Maybe some of that was the fact he was here for four years, and you get tuned out if you don't get results. But that's the nature of the business. He didn't get better, the team didn't get better, and I have no problem that he was let go.

You think me being critical of their failures means that I hated them or hate them, but it's just not the case. I hate that they didn't do enough to get this team over the hump, and I find it puzzling that some still don't want to see the role they played in our team being bad and their own demises. Again, they didn't have it easy, but they were a huge part of the problem. Good for them that they are in better situations now, and good for us that we are as well.

 

[bleedgreen]

Yeah, I'm not going to waste time looking over every transaction that happened and try to say what we should have done. And again, only looking at transactions that were made and acting like no other transactions were possible is ridiculous. Francis would have sat on his hands last off season as per usual, and if a Hamilton trade never happened because of that, you would say that no trade was available. If it went down to a different team in a similar trade, you would say it was too much to pay. Francis showed no ability to do anything other than play it safe and not make big moves.

And on the contrary about me hating them, I hated their results. I've defended Francis as a guy that could take advantage of cap strapped teams, he was good at re-signing our guys to great deals, he was good with the patient drafting and developing plan, and he was able to trade rentals for great returns. But I said from early on when I was still a fan of RF as a GM that the true test would be putting the team over the top, not just hoarding picks and prospects. He never did it. I find it odd that people say well, if we only had goaltending, but gloss over that it was his job to find it.

As for Peters, again, I was plenty a fan of his early on, but eventually, you have to be able to move forward. He didn't, and the team seemed to tune him out. He had his questionable make a save tirade. He didn't seem interested in adapting his system to players. I feel like by the end of his tenure, the structure and ability to get more out of our players was gone. Maybe some of that was the fact he was here for four years, and you get tuned out if you don't get results. But that's the nature of the business. He didn't get better, the team didn't get better, and I have no problem that he was let go.

You think me being critical of their failures means that I hated them or hate them, but it's just not the case. I hate that they didn't do enough to get this team over the hump, and I find it puzzling that some still don't want to see the role they played in our team being bad and their own demises. Again, they didn't have it easy, but they were a huge part of the problem. Good for them that they are in better situations now, and good for us that we are as well.

I think Francis would’ve made a Hanifin for Hamilton based trade. I don’t believe he wanted to sit on his hands and hoard his prospects forever. He said himself he would make the moves when they were there and when the team was ready. We never got a chance to see the fifth year, and if at the end of that we were in the same boat I would’ve been fine with moving on.

You make good arguments about the good things he did, and you say the major thing he didn’t do was make the big move. I think he didn’t do that because we weren’t ready and he was right to wait until we were. Both are fair concepts. I do find it puzzling you want to leave that off season to “I’m sure there was a great deal for us out there and he just wouldn’t do it”, but I agree it’s a cyclical go nowhere argument.

My big argument to your theme was actually this. I didn’t think we were bad. I thought I saw improvements every year, and to me the game plan was still clear and in progress. Everyone just gave up on it before it was given the time allotted. I like the success we’ve had since, this isn’t about that. Like hockeyluv said earlier both regimes did a good job with the group they had and the resources they possessed. It should be enough to leave it at that, I know you don’t agree.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Basically, we had everything in place other than money and talent.

Ok, I lol'd.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

someone had to.

Is that green guy Necas at 30 years old?

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Like hockeyluv said earlier both regimes did a good job with the group they had and the resources they possessed. It should be enough to leave it at that, I know you don’t agree.

Ron Francis is the GM of Seattle now, isn't he? Why don't you focus on that?

 

[GoldiFox]

Kochetkov traded to a Vityaz. Whose current 2 goaltenders have a 0.976 sv% (7 games) and 0.940 sv% (11 games)

 

[Canes]

smh knew we should have drafted Søgaard

HC Vityaz going to turn him into a goon

 

[Unsustainable]

Kochetkov traded to a Vityaz. Whose current 2 goaltenders have a 0.976 sv% (7 games) and 0.940 sv% (11 games)

do you know who their top scorer is?

semin

 

[Lempo]

do you know who their top scorer is?

semin

Nope, I can't work this into a Russian reversal no way no how.

 

[Svechhammer]

do you know who their top scorer is?

semin

So what you're saying is, once you've gotten a taste of Semin on your team, there's no going back

 

[GoldiFox]

Jamieson Rees comes back from suspension and puts up 1G/2A in his first full game. It was his team's first win this year as they sit 1-7-0.

He's got a ways to go to catch up to other HFCanes favored 2nd pick Nick Robertson who has 12 Goals and 19 points in 10 games so far this year.