Predators Hockey Discussion 22-23

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Kat Predator

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So long as the compliance buyout rules were limited to 1 or 2 players per team, it's not clear that the NHLPA would put up too much of a fuss. Most players would remain locked in under their existing contract. And speaking of majorities, most of the teams have spent themselves into a corner. The players would also have to weigh the value of free agency and allowing more players to seek the greener grass on the other side of the highway.
 

badi

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Jan 21, 2008
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Forsberg - Johanssen- Duchene

Niederraiter - Glass- Grandlund

Trenin - Pärssinen - Jeannot

Jankowski - Sissons- Smith
 

Porter Stoutheart

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Well the owners were originally under the impression of a couple million cap boost vs 1. Im sure some deals were done with the understanding that the cap would actaully rise significantly next season.

As far as the PA is concerned, due to the stagnant cap even with a compliance buyout i imagine wed end right back where we are with almost all the teams against the cap. so its not like theyre going to be losing funds... theyll just be allocated differently. Regular buyout would restrict future signings due to the cap penalty which would lower the potential earnings of replacement players.
Well no, they were originally under the impression that there would only be a $1M cap boost, since that's the whole framework that was signed up to under the Covid amendments, and then re-iterated by Daly this summer. It was only a little later near the start of the season that the reports of a potential tidal wave of revenue wiping out the escrow debt came out, culminating in Bettman suggesting that a bigger rise would indeed be possible. But that was AFTER teams made the vast bulk of their summer moves.

Sooner or later they need to do something about this whole situation with the majority of teams spending to the Cap. Players definitely do not like escrow, and the whole midpoint concept is basically out the window if teams are always going to spend like this. One carrot that can probably be dangled to the PA would be the removal of escrow... that's what I would push for if I was on the PA side. If the owners are going to outspend the midpoint, make that their problem entirely. Under that kind of amendment, I'd certainly be open to allowing Compliance buyouts to seed that new era of profitability for my union members. :)
 
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Byrddog

Lifer
Nov 23, 2007
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Its dissapointing. Last year up until January, the team looked good, then all the rookies hit the mid season wall and luckily enough for the Preds, Duchene/Forsberg and Josi basically carried the team into the Playoffs at the expense of their play, which didnt carry over into the series with Colorado. Ill give Poile credit (I have certain issues with how he handles the team otherwise) with upgrading the team with adding McDonagh, Lankinen and Nino, but theres no excuse for the team to be as bad as they are right now, thats on Hynes. Im not saying we should be a top team, but the Preds shouldnt be struggling this badly. Theres no excuse for borderline NHL players like Smith or Jankowski being in the lineup every night while Tolvy gets waived/claimed and Tomasino is in the minors. Im all in on the fire Hynes bandwagon, he needs to go.
A case can be made that Hynes should have never been hired. And the way he has handled players impacts there performance. Players can get a coach fired, players need to be held accountable too. Individual players can have rough periods but to have Forsberg, Duchene, Johansen and Josi all fall off the bus at once is suspicious. You can not expect players to have record years year after year but dropping production like these guys have is unacceptable and yes coaching has some impact but getting a big contract and then just sitting down is on the player. We have seen that before here as well. There is little proof that the kids are going to impact this team anytime soon. When one looks at Tolvanen’s numbers from the outside he projects to be a 40 point guy tops, the team needed more. So if they bring up guys for two years and they perform no better, the organization gives up on them look back at those who developed more slowly that Poile and coaches wanted. Leaving here and having successful careers. To impact that deeper this team other than Radulov has never drafted and developed high end offense and now it looks like the defense development has dropped as well. Ekholm and Ellis have been the last , Fabbro may or may not be a solid top pairing guy even Jones has never lived up to what he should have been having played third pair here he’s now struggling in Chicago. The first step needs to be Poiles retirement the new GM bringing in a new coaching and development staff. Getting the team away from Poiles patching the roster just to make it to post season. The one run at the cup was magical but it will be a decade before the team turns around. The cap spending is out of whack and will be for two more years as many have pointed out moving a player with term and $$$$ is difficult in the league right now currently Duchene and Johansen are overpaid and Mac will be in a year or two. Right now is the time to develop guys and stand behind those who will be part of the team when the big contracts start to fall off. This is the path Colorado took Jersey traded all there veterans off and sucked for a while drafted well and are now rebuilt to compete. David Poile will not take either route.
 

Viqsi

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Well the owners were originally under the impression of a couple million cap boost vs 1. Im sure some deals were done with the understanding that the cap would actaully rise significantly next season.

As far as the PA is concerned, due to the stagnant cap even with a compliance buyout i imagine wed end right back where we are with almost all the teams against the cap. so its not like theyre going to be losing funds... theyll just be allocated differently. Regular buyout would restrict future signings due to the cap penalty which would lower the potential earnings of replacement players.
The stagnant cap is the PA's own damn fault for perpetually ignoring the escrow problem.
 

glenngineer

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Jan 27, 2010
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What is the expectation for the team by the owners? If it's to make the playoffs and hope for the best, then Poile has fulfilled his duties.

If the expectation is to win a Cup, he has failed.

If the expectation is to compete hard for the Cup, he's failed.

Just because I want the team to win a Cup doesn't mean that's the goal of the people paying the bills.

Do we have a competitive team year in and year out, sure. Are they ever going to win anything, doubtful.
 

LeighDx59

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Nov 23, 2011
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A case can be made that Hynes should have never been hired. And the way he has handled players impacts there performance. Players can get a coach fired, players need to be held accountable too. Individual players can have rough periods but to have Forsberg, Duchene, Johansen and Josi all fall off the bus at once is suspicious. You can not expect players to have record years year after year but dropping production like these guys have is unacceptable and yes coaching has some impact but getting a big contract and then just sitting down is on the player. We have seen that before here as well. There is little proof that the kids are going to impact this team anytime soon. When one looks at Tolvanen’s numbers from the outside he projects to be a 40 point guy tops, the team needed more. So if they bring up guys for two years and they perform no better, the organization gives up on them look back at those who developed more slowly that Poile and coaches wanted. Leaving here and having successful careers. To impact that deeper this team other than Radulov has never drafted and developed high end offense and now it looks like the defense development has dropped as well. Ekholm and Ellis have been the last , Fabbro may or may not be a solid top pairing guy even Jones has never lived up to what he should have been having played third pair here he’s now struggling in Chicago. The first step needs to be Poiles retirement the new GM bringing in a new coaching and development staff. Getting the team away from Poiles patching the roster just to make it to post season. The one run at the cup was magical but it will be a decade before the team turns around. The cap spending is out of whack and will be for two more years as many have pointed out moving a player with term and $$$$ is difficult in the league right now currently Duchene and Johansen are overpaid and Mac will be in a year or two. Right now is the time to develop guys and stand behind those who will be part of the team when the big contracts start to fall off. This is the path Colorado took Jersey traded all there veterans off and sucked for a while drafted well and are now rebuilt to compete. David Poile will not take either route.

I dont disagree with this at all either, I would love to see a new general manager as well as new coaching staff. Realistically though, its unlikely Poile goes anywhere until he wants too. I think their defensive scouting staff is in Detroit now, and like you said, we havent had any superstars drafted up front either. And I cant say that ive ever liked the Hynes signing, I thought there were way more better options than him, he wasnt even on my radar.

My thing right now, is I feel like after a few tweakings (removing Smith/Jankowski), this team could do some damage right now. Theres enough talent that can win, its just not going too as long as Hynes is at the helm. Id love to see Taylor or Trotz come in and see what happens.
 
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Byrddog

Lifer
Nov 23, 2007
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I dont disagree with this at all either, I would love to see a new general manager as well as new coaching staff. Realistically though, its unlikely Poile goes anywhere until he wants too. I think their defensive scouting staff is in Detroit now, and like you said, we havent had any superstars drafted up front either. And I cant say that ive ever liked the Hynes signing, I thought there were way more better options than him, he wasnt even on my radar.

My thing right now, is I feel like after a few tweakings (removing Smith/Jankowski), this team could do some damage right now. Theres enough talent that can win, its just not going too as long as Hynes is at the helm. Id love to see Taylor or Trotz come in and see what happens.
I would hope your right but the issue remains that the big three have just plain laid down again. It’s expected from Johansen but Duchene does seem to huddle most of the time but overall has been a disappointment minus last season. Forsberg is frustrating the guy can turn it on really any time he wishes. But he has looked really bad this year why is the question? Had he laid down since he cashed out? Even with the great years those three had last year it was a squeak to get in playoffs. And then a drubbing 1st round exit. I guess what m point is the secondary player movmnt means little without the vote clicking on all cylinders.
 

Olderfan

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Jul 3, 2019
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Just 3 small observations:
Is it feasible that Forsberg, Duchene, Granlund, Josi, Saros, Jeannot, Trenin, Johansen, McDonough all forgot how to play hockey this summer? 5 on 5, 4 on 4 and the PP? Feasible but not very likely, yet here we are.
Is it feasible that Jeannot and Trenin were just flukes. Again, not likely but possible I guess.
Did Tomasino and Tolvanen deserve their fates? Not that likely but maybe.
Is Milwaukee just suddenly lucky or are there some really good players there?
Look for a common denominator and It has to be the coach, his system and his decisions; roster decisions, line decisions, D pairing decisions. Players just look out of synch and somewhat confused. At the end of camp the wrong roster was selected. Everyone saw players who should have been here but were in Milwaukee; Ok, at least called up first.
Now, he even looks baffled on the bench during games but that’s probably unfair to say. We don’t know what’s in his mind.
I’d say he’s lost the room.
That brings us to Poile. His summertime job was:
Backup Goalie
Bunch of AHL vets to back up NHL roster
Another top forward for NHL
Will he address the Preds problem soon? Clocks ticking.
 

BigFatCat999

First Fubu and now Pred303. !@#$! you cancer
Apr 23, 2007
19,119
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1/3rd of the season done. 500 team. PLaying like a level of dog shit. When I lose hope, that's saying something.

EDIT: Trotz wants a coach/GM job, Trotz is talking about taking this yr off. Connor Beddard is playing for Trotz's old team, the Regina Pats.

Imagine Trotz "consulting" behind the scenes?
 
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Scoresberg

Perpetual Mediocrity
May 28, 2015
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I think Granlund's still playing too big of a role on this team right now.

To me, he's lost a step. Especially on that PP1, I think he's the one slowing everyone else down.

We need to go back to winger-Granlund, cause I think he's over his head right now as the 1C. Give that job to Pärssinen, or to Joey even who can still be useful in that role.
 

LeighDx59

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Nov 23, 2011
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Detroit, MI
I would hope your right but the issue remains that the big three have just plain laid down again. It’s expected from Johansen but Duchene does seem to huddle most of the time but overall has been a disappointment minus last season. Forsberg is frustrating the guy can turn it on really any time he wishes. But he has looked really bad this year why is the question? Had he laid down since he cashed out? Even with the great years those three had last year it was a squeak to get in playoffs. And then a drubbing 1st round exit. I guess what m point is the secondary player movmnt means little without the vote clicking on all cylinders.
They seem like theyre trying to do too much by themselves most nights. The amount of times ive seen Forsberg or Duchene try to get through three players by themselves is ridiculous. And this season the lack of secondary scoring is very apparent. Jeannot, Trenin, Granlund have all taken steps back, Jeannot has to be somewhat of a sophmore slump. Tomasino in the minors and Smith/Jankowski cant score to save their live. Nino has been solid but has also cooled off. Which means we lean on the top guys even more, and if theyre not scoring consistently, you get the team were watching right now.

This team is not on the same page at all.
 

triggrman

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They seem like theyre trying to do too much by themselves most nights. The amount of times ive seen Forsberg or Duchene try to get through three players by themselves is ridiculous. And this season the lack of secondary scoring is very apparent. Jeannot, Trenin, Granlund have all taken steps back, Jeannot has to be somewhat of a sophmore slump. Tomasino in the minors and Smith/Jankowski cant score to save their live. Nino has been solid but has also cooled off. Which means we lean on the top guys even more, and if theyre not scoring consistently, you get the team were watching right now.

This team is not on the same page at all.
Good job, couldn’t agree more
 

Porter Stoutheart

Seen Stamkos?
Jun 14, 2017
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Forsberg is still on pace for his second best season in his career, Josi is too, Duchene is around his career average point wise.
Don't forget scoring is up all around the league. A lot of very average players are scoring at a point-per-game clip this season, and a lot of D are getting pretty surprising points.

They could get the "second highest point totals" in their careers, but that wouldn't necessarily mean the same thing as having their "second best season".
 
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triggrman

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Don't forget scoring is up all around the league. A lot of very average players are scoring at a point-per-game clip this season, and a lot of D are getting pretty surprising points.

They could get the "second highest point totals" in their careers, but that wouldn't necessarily mean the same thing as having their "second best season".
Scoring is up overall but down on the Preds team so relative to their peers, it could very well be their best season
 

triggrman

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Disagree. If you think those guys are possibly having their best seasons, I can't help you.
If you think that’s what I said, I can’t help you but I will try.

I don’t think the players for the most part are the problem. I think relative to the rest of the team, they’re doing what they can. There’s no power play scoring or secondary scoring, it’s amazing they are where they are point wise. This system is a failure

Johansen though, looks defeated, checked out. I think he’s done with Hynes and his play will get worse.
 

Porter Stoutheart

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If you think that’s what I said, I can’t help you but I will try.

I don’t think the players for the most part are the problem. I think relative to the rest of the team, they’re doing what they can. There’s no power play scoring or secondary scoring, it’s amazing they are where they are point wise. This system is a failure

Johansen though, looks defeated, checked out. I think he’s done with Hynes and his play will get worse.
That's better, but I still don't find their seasons to be "amazing". Or in any contention for being possibly their best. Even with all the valid excuses taken into consideration.

Anyway it still comes down to the same thing: time to change the coach and see.
 

herzausstein

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Aug 31, 2014
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If you think that’s what I said, I can’t help you but I will try.

I don’t think the players for the most part are the problem. I think relative to the rest of the team, they’re doing what they can. There’s no power play scoring or secondary scoring, it’s amazing they are where they are point wise. This system is a failure

Johansen though, looks defeated, checked out. I think he’s done with Hynes and his play will get worse.
Jeoy seens frustrated. Hes taken some bad penalties as of late and is getting put with lesser players. I guess the same thing i gripe about pairing glass with jankowski and smith applied to johansen. You cant really pair a pass first skills center with players that dont score and expect them to succeed.
 

Porter Stoutheart

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Jeoy seens frustrated. Hes taken some bad penalties as of late and is getting put with lesser players. I guess the same thing i gripe about pairing glass with jankowski and smith applied to johansen. You cant really pair a pass first skills center with players that dont score and expect them to succeed.
I would tend to think Poile kind of has to be getting frustrated with some of these things too. I mean, he's the ultimate architect of this team, he assembled it based on certain ideas of how the players could best be used, he gave them the contracts that are representative of those perceived abilities.

Anyway, if I was in his place I'd be getting very frustrated. Guys I picked in the 1st round of the draft (Fabbro, Tomasino, Tolvanen), guys I signed to $8M contracts, guys I acquired in trades... I would feel like if I went out and got these guys, and they aren't being utilized in positions to succeed, or are regressing in their development, I would be a lot less patient than he seems to be. And then on top of that at his age, he probably knows that this roster is his last chance, as faint as that might be. The Nino/Lankinen/McDonagh adds went straight to the heart of making this the best final hurrah he could manage within the constraints of the rest of the roster he constructed.

I am getting the sense that Hynes is sort of one of those TryHard guys... he really does put a lot of effort into what he's doing, he's got energy, expresses himself well and has sincere conviction behind what he says, but... end of the day his ideas aren't good ones, and he can't seem to translate all his visions into something that actually works. We're getting near the end of the line in terms of how much benevolent fatherly tolerance Poile can show here before it's too late. :dunno:
 

Kat Predator

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Nov 28, 2019
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Jeoy seens frustrated. Hes taken some bad penalties as of late and is getting put with lesser players. I guess the same thing i gripe about pairing glass with jankowski and smith applied to johansen. You cant really pair a pass first skills center with players that dont score and expect them to succeed.
It's also possible that many of the players have figured out that throwing big checks and getting in fights doesn't score goals.

Parssinen seems to be getting the Johansen treatment now.

On the bright side, being so hard up against the cap ceiling means none of the forwards have to worry about being taken out of the lineup for niggling mistakes.
 

Armourboy

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Jan 20, 2014
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I don't know how Poile hasn't fired him, especially with Trotz sitting there doing nothing. Maybe you have but you at least pick up the phone and make that call and if he is on board you can Hynes. This isn't going to get better, Hynes actually believe this is a winning system.

He made the playoffs in NJ on the back of an incredible season by Taylor Hall. He's barely made into the playoffs here on the back of Forsberg, Duchene, and Josi having career years. David Poile has watched more hockey than probably most of this board put together. There is no way in heck he isn't seeing exactly what we are.
 
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Byrddog

Lifer
Nov 23, 2007
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I don't know how Poile hasn't fired him, especially with Trotz sitting there doing nothing. Maybe you have but you at least pick up the phone and make that call and if he is on board you can Hynes. This isn't going to get better, Hynes actually believe this is a winning system.

He made the playoffs in NJ on the back of an incredible season by Taylor Hall. He's barely made into the playoffs here on the back of Forsberg, Duchene, and Josi having career years. David Poile has watched more hockey than probably most of this board put together. There is no way in heck he isn't seeing exactly what we are.
That’s the thing Trotz indicated before the season he wanted to take the season off. Could this be why ZPoile has not pulled the trigger?
 
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