Predators Hockey Discussion 22-23

[ILikeItILoveIt]

Tying him up for 2 years and anything less than the $2.4 million he's asking for is a good deal for us. Poile probably tried to negotiate a 2-year deal at an AAV south of 2 million. When he couldn't, he figured the arbitration process would split the baby and get it under $2 million.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

This arbitration must be very seriously awry. It was the only one scheduled for a hearing that hasn’t been settled(thus far). There were none last year according to published reports. There was apparently only 1 in the prior year. These have become few and far between as almost all get settled and have just been place holders. So they must have been miles apart on actual offers and counter-offers notwithstanding the arbitration meeting numbers we’ve heard. Serious stuff that likely resulted in animosity from both parties. I really regret this.

Yep, 1 case out of 47 that actually went to a hearing in the previous 2 yrs. And all other 17 cases so far this year were also settled before a hearing. It has been extremely rare lately for a case to actually make a hearing. (Aside: where can I apply for the job of NHL Salary Arbitrator... that sounds pretty cushy! )

I suspect they had ample "animosity" even before this, though. Still, Trenin's filing was fair-sh at $2.4M and would have left him RFA afterwards and still open to remaining with the team beyond. Whereas the team's filing was purely Predatory, paying him half what Kunin just got and ensuring the clock is ticking on his time left in the organization. I just don't think Poile likes it when somebody goes around him. He talks very mild and reasonable when dealing with the media, but there are clearly some lines that can't be crossed with him. I would expect Trenin will be traded before he becomes UFA, and any Cap savings we get out of the arbitration award will just go to benefiting some Cap-strapped Eastern Conference team that acquires him for the playoff trenches.

 

[Predsanddead24]

Does Trenin still have the same agent he did during his last negotiations? I don't remember all the details of Trenin's last negotiation but I remember his agent being a bit bombastic. Could definitely see how that could create tension with Poile.

 

[triggrman]

Does Trenin still have the same agent he did during his last negotiations? I don't remember all the details of Trenin's last negotiation but I remember his agent being a bit bombastic. Could definitely see how that could create tension with Poile.

I don't know but that's why Fiala isn't here, IMHO, his negotiations were always tough for Poile.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Does Trenin still have the same agent he did during his last negotiations? I don't remember all the details of Trenin's last negotiation but I remember his agent being a bit bombastic. Could definitely see how that could create tension with Poile.

If this is his agent, he doesn't really have a significant client list, Just a small-time Russian guy...

NHL Contracts by Agent Shumi Babaev | Puckpedia

puckpedia.com

 

[Armourboy]

If this is his agent, he doesn't really have a significant client list, Just a small-time Russian guy...

NHL Contracts by Agent Shumi Babaev | Puckpedia

puckpedia.com

Doesn't mean he doesn't have issues with him especially if the first words out of his mouth are KHL. The Radulov mess could still be playing a part in this, not so much that Poile has an issue with Russians, more that he has more of a problem with them when they are constantly using the KHL as a bargaining chip. We know Trenin has done that in the past, so it may be more of a case where he doesn't like negotiating with the guy and has essentially chosen not too.

It's all speculation at this point but Poile generally hasn't been one to let a guy get to UFA by his own hand so something in all of this is just off. Whether that is Trenin himself obviously we don't know.

 

[Olderfan]

Doesn't mean he doesn't have issues with him especially if the first words out of his mouth are KHL. The Radulov mess could still be playing a part in this, not so much that Poile has an issue with Russians, more that he has more of a problem with them when they are constantly using the KHL as a bargaining chip. We know Trenin has done that in the past, so it may be more of a case where he doesn't like negotiating with the guy and has essentially chosen not too.

It's all speculation at this point but Poile generally hasn't been one to let a guy get to UFA by his own hand so something in all of this is just off. Whether that is Trenin himself obviously we don't know.

This is “off”. Poile has negotiated with dozens of players/agents for many years. There is no reason to believe he is being unfair. He may be a tough negotiator; he may not, I don’t know but I know this; Trenin and his agent are only concerned about Trenin(rightly so). Poile has to be concerned about Trenin, a Salary Cap, a Budget, other Players Contracts, future Expiring Contracts, his Owners, Comparable League Contracts and so on. Poile is many things but two things he is not is unethical and a liar. The Preds have invested a lot of development dollars in Trenin with little return yet to the franchise(one fairly good year) and I’m fairly certain they don’t choose to lose him. So, even though Poile may want to minimize Trenin’s deal for reasons, I’m pretty sure he’s somewhere in a reasonable territory. Bottom line is if you like Poile as a GM then you’ll probably think he’s done his best. If you dislike him as a GM you’ll probably think he’s the villain in this negotiation.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

This is “off”. Poile has negotiated with dozens of players/agents for many years. There is no reason to believe he is being unfair. He may be a tough negotiator; he may not, I don’t know but I know this; Trenin and his agent are only concerned about Trenin(rightly so). Poile has to be concerned about Trenin, a Salary Cap, a Budget, other Players Contracts, future Expiring Contracts, his Owners, Comparable League Contracts and so on. Poile is many things but two things he is not is unethical and a liar. The Preds have invested a lot of development dollars in Trenin with little return yet to the franchise(one fairly good year) and I’m fairly certain they don’t choose to lose him. So, even though Poile may want to minimize Trenin’s deal for reasons, I’m pretty sure he’s somewhere in a reasonable territory. Bottom line is if you like Poile as a GM then you’ll probably think he’s done his best. If you dislike him as a GM you’ll probably think he’s the villain in this negotiation.

Well as to the last part of that... I love Poile as a GM. But I do think he's the villain in this one particular negotiation. Nobody's perfect.

 

[101st_fan]

Well as to the last part of that... I love Poile as a GM. But I do think he's the villain in this one particular negotiation. Nobody's perfect.

Just how do you come to that conclusion based on the total absence of evidence to support Trenin or Poile here?

 

[Armourboy]

This is “off”. Poile has negotiated with dozens of players/agents for many years. There is no reason to believe he is being unfair. He may be a tough negotiator; he may not, I don’t know but I know this; Trenin and his agent are only concerned about Trenin(rightly so). Poile has to be concerned about Trenin, a Salary Cap, a Budget, other Players Contracts, future Expiring Contracts, his Owners, Comparable League Contracts and so on. Poile is many things but two things he is not is unethical and a liar. The Preds have invested a lot of development dollars in Trenin with little return yet to the franchise(one fairly good year) and I’m fairly certain they don’t choose to lose him. So, even though Poile may want to minimize Trenin’s deal for reasons, I’m pretty sure he’s somewhere in a reasonable territory. Bottom line is if you like Poile as a GM then you’ll probably think he’s done his best. If you dislike him as a GM you’ll probably think he’s the villain in this negotiation.

No one is saying he is being unfair, unethical or a liar, what I was saying is he may not like Trenin's freaking agent, which is not a crazy thought after how the last two negotiations have gone. He may have simply reached a position with him where it is far easier to just got the arbitration route than to deal with the agent.

 

[Olderfan]

No one is saying he is being unfair, unethical or a liar, what I was saying is he may not like Trenin's freaking agent, which is not a crazy thought after how the last two negotiations have gone. He may have simply reached a position with him where it is far easier to just got the arbitration route than to deal with the agent.

I’m sorry if you thought I was commenting anything about others opinions. I was just speaking of Poile’s reputation. I just don’t think Poile(the Preds organization actually) chose Trenin to offer an unfair deal. I believe that if we knew the numbers being discussed during negotiations(and we don’t and probably never will) we’d find a fair offer on the table. These low Pred numbers and high Trenin numbers used for arbitration are positioning numbers; not likely the negotiation numbers. But again I was not critical of anyones opinion; just stating mine.

 

[Armourboy]

I’m sorry if you thought I was commenting anything about others opinions. I was just speaking of Poile’s reputation. I just don’t think Poile(the Preds organization actually) chose Trenin to offer an unfair deal. I believe that if we knew the numbers being discussed during negotiations(and we don’t and probably never will) we’d find a fair offer on the table. These low Pred numbers and high Trenin numbers used for arbitration are positioning numbers; not likely the negotiation numbers. But again I was not critical of anyones opinion; just stating mine.

Oh I doubt they were either, I'm going to guess Poile was probably offering him something in line with the Sissons deal but I get the feeling based on their filing that Trenin basically was betting on himself hoping to have an even better season to push that number up.

I also think league wide there are some guys taking some deals just trying to get a year or two down the road until the cap goes up.

 

[101st_fan]

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I also think league wide there are some guys taking some deals just trying to get a year or two down the road until the cap goes up.

If Gary Bettman is to be believed, the Cap is not going up in the next year or two. Or not by more than this year's $1M anyway. But as with the Klingberg deal, if you are left without a chair when the music stops, you may not really have any choice, regardless of what happens with the Cap.

 

[Rock Paper Sissons]

What is the hold up with Trenin, I remember Arbitration hearings a few years ago we used to hear the ruling right away. Like what are they waiting for??

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

What is the hold up with Trenin, I remember Arbitration hearings a few years ago we used to hear the ruling right away. Like what are they waiting for??

In theory, the ruling was already sent to the Preds and Trenin at 9am this morning.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

No one is saying he is being unfair, unethical or a liar, what I was saying is he may not like Trenin's freaking agent, which is not a crazy thought after how the last two negotiations have gone. He may have simply reached a position with him where it is far easier to just got the arbitration route than to deal with the agent.

I wouldn't let not liking an agent stand in the way if I liked the player.

I look at the Miles Wood contract with the Devils. Wood hasn't really done a lot lately. He was basically injured all last year. But the Devils stepped up and said, hey, we like you as a player and we want to keep you, even if things didn't go so well lately. Not at your QO, but we still believe in you. And they made a very generous offer. And the sides worked things out. If you like the player, you should be a little more eager to find ways to work things out. And I don't care how much I hate the agent, I won't make my team worse on the ice just because the agent is a dick. (Although to be fair here, most of what I've read about the agent is that his players like him and he's a reasonable and intelligent guy. Very Russian-centric viewpoint, but why not - he's Russian and all his clients are Russian and they really do have options outside the NHL. That reality is also something which should not upset or surprise Poile.)

 

[101st_fan]

48 hours after the hearing ... hearing is up to 3 hrs long ... assuming it did start at 9am EDT and wasn't shifted to a different time by agreement

 

[Predsanddead24]

I don't know why either side needs to be the bad guy here. Trenin wants to maximize his money and uses any leverage he has (including threatening to go the KHL) which is a perfectly reasonable position. However, if you're making it clear that you're probably going to go to the highest bidder when you hit UFA (which most likely won't be us) I think it's also perfectly reasonable for Poile to say ok well I'm going to try and get you to as cheap as possible up until that point.

 

[BigFatCat999]

Trenin award was supposed to be 9AM no announcement yet. Preds trying to trade him?

 

[herzausstein]

Trenin award was supposed to be 9AM no announcement yet. Preds trying to trade him?

Is it possible to still trade him before signing? I imagine he’d get some big interest especially from a team like florida that could use the 2nd buyout window that comes with an arbitration award.

 

[BigFatCat999]

Is it possible to still trade him before signing? I imagine he’d get some big interest especially from a team like florida that could use the 2nd buyout window that comes with an arbitration award.

If my memory is correct, yes.


Here is where my heart is: Trenin+ for Barzal

My head says: Trenin for pick

My expectation is: Trenin back on the team

 

[Olderfan]

Since the Preds get some time(I guess) to decide 1 year or 2 years, maybe they’re thinking it over for awhile. Or just maybe they are working a trade and let the trade partner tell them how many years they want? This is lots of fun, isn’t it!

 

[Armourboy]

Since the Preds get some time(I guess) to decide 1 year or 2 years, maybe they’re thinking it over for awhile. Or just maybe they are working a trade and let the trade partner tell them how many years they want? This is lots of fun, isn’t it!

The years are decided in the hearing so that's already done.

 

[BigFatCat999]

Since the Preds get some time(I guess) to decide 1 year or 2 years, maybe they’re thinking it over for awhile. Or just maybe they are working a trade and let the trade partner tell them how many years they want? This is lots of fun, isn’t it!

Josh Bailey?