BigFatCat999
First Fubu and now Pred303. !@#$! you cancer
and some f***ing how the team will win. 4 pts from WC with 3 games in hand...Its gonna be McCarron with sissons moved up to replaced forsberg
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Predators Hockey Discussion 22-23
- Thread starter nine_inch_fang
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Scoresberg
Perpetual Mediocrity
Look, no one’s advocating for full teardown around here. All we’re saying that we are currently on a path to nowhere and that is depressing from a fan’s standpoint.
Move out a few veteran pieces, reload a season or two and then come back stronger with some elite talent in the pipeline.
Move out a few veteran pieces, reload a season or two and then come back stronger with some elite talent in the pipeline.
Porter Stoutheart
Seen Stamkos?
- Jun 14, 2017
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Maybe it's not quite "ironically", but... I could actually see us being almost immediately better if the veteran pieces you moved were Johansen and Granlund, because frankly they aren't showing themselves to be any better than Glass/Parssinen/Novak are. It's not like you even necessarily take any steps back or "reload" if those are the changes. And it's not like we're moving Forsberg or Josi no matter what. So...
Pretty similar to what we had to do with trading Erat and Legwand. We got youth hungry to come up and contribute. Eventually teams have to reload.Maybe it's not quite "ironically", but... I could actually see us being almost immediately better if the veteran pieces you moved were Johansen and Granlund, because frankly they aren't showing themselves to be any better than Glass/Parssinen/Novak are. It's not like you even necessarily take any steps back or "reload" if those are the changes. And it's not like we're moving Forsberg or Josi no matter what. So...
It took career seasons from multiple players for this team to sneak into the 8th seed last season. This season everyone has reverted back to status quo and we are currently outside looking in but knocking at the door as other teams are struggling as well. We didnt really improve year over year and next years cap situation means we up against the cap with little room to improve except from within. So we either make room for them through trades or we go into next year hoping for the return of career highs from players under contract.
Bringer of Jollity
Registered User
I don't think there are many pieces realistically moveable...Granlund, Sissons, and Nino probably. Nino's been great for us so I'd be reluctant to move him. Sissons I'd be ok with but depends on what we're getting back, he's not worth moving just for the sake of moving him. Granlund, sure, though we're taking,salary back to make it work.
None of the big contracts are going to be moving.
Porter Stoutheart
Seen Stamkos?
- Jun 14, 2017
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I still think the "career seasons" was something of a mirage. We were a much better team through January than we were after. And most of those career-making points totals rocketed up during the part of the season when we weren't as good! So the correlation isn't as strong as folks might think. And also a good PP was a big part of the points totals too. The good part of the season there seemed to be a chemistry and execution/balance advantage vs. the bad part of the season, in a way that transcended the individual points totals of the star players. So its kind of an inverse correlation overall.
Hence... to me, there's no reason our team couldn't be performing much better than it has been, with the same personnel, but lacking "career offensive seasons" from multiple star players. What we are lacking now is execution, chemistry, and a good PP. A lot of which I attribute purely to coaching.
On February 1st last season we were firmly in 2nd place in our division, 10 pts up on the last Wildcard spot we ultimately finished in, and on pace for 107 pts.
Consider these splits:
2021-22 Oct 12-Feb 1
46gp: 28-14-4 = 60pts [+19] (full season pace of 107pts)
Roman Josi 44-13-31-44 1.00 ppg (full season pace of 82 pts)
Matt Duchene 42-21-20-41 0.98 ppg (full season pace of 80 pts)
Filip Forsberg 33-24-14-38 1.15 ppg (full season pace of 94 pts)
Feb 2 - May1
36gp: 17-16-3 = 37pts [-5] (full season pace of 84pts)
Roman Josi 36-10-42-52 1.44 ppg (full season pace of 118 pts)
Matt Duchene 36-22-23-45 1.25 ppg (full season pace of 103 pts)
Filip Forsberg 36-18-28-46 1.28 ppg (full season pace of 105 pts)
... of course you could make cases in the opposite direction on those splits for some other players lower down the roster (like the Herd Line esp. was far more productive in the early part than the latter part) --- but hopefully for those lesser/younger guys that doesn't represent "career seasons"! Anyway, our team was a lot better when it was a more balanced output and the players were executing and working hard consistently vs. later on when it was just a case of the big guns "carrying" the team (to mediocrity) with their career high offensive outbursts.
So again, all of these arguments ultimately come back to: change the coach. He had something going right, lost it, never figured out how to get it back. This team CAN be better than it has been this season. If this coach can't get them back there, try another one. All the ideas about rebuilding/retooling/reloading/etc are to me besides the fact until you have at least tried that one simple thing first.
*IF* you try that and it still doesn't work, fine, I'm ready for that next level of thinking. But until we've tried it... a step in the process is being missed IMHO.
glenngineer
Registered User
Someone mentioned as fans are we happy with just making the playoffs? Me personally, I'm not. Tired of the mediocrity. On the flip side, if this is the edict from the owners, then shame on them. Also shame on me for spending money on this mediocre train.
People have also talked about having a true number 1 center. Johansen and Arnott have probably been the two best we've had and they would've been better slotting in as number 2's. If Poile could ever acquire a true number 1, other guys would slot down into spots that fit their skill sets better. And honestly, the best center Poile ever had on any of his teams was Jason Allison and unfortunately, his career got derailed by injuries.
Poile did fleece the Rangers many years ago trading Bobby Carpenter, who was a high draft pick, I believe number 2 overall for 2 second line centers in Mike Ridley and Kelly Miller. Both went on to solid careers but were not game breakers, much like we've seen here over the years. Carpenter's career was killed by injuries too so while Poile got out from under that possibility, he moved a more dynamic player for two lesser players.
If Poile were to build our top 9 with all top 6 players and have a 4th line with 3rd liners (HERD is already in place), we might get over the hump. Unfortunately, he builds a top 6 with two second lines and then his bottom 6 is the traditional bottom 6, which is why we're good enough to get into the playoffs but never quite good enough to make the leap to true contenders.
People have also talked about having a true number 1 center. Johansen and Arnott have probably been the two best we've had and they would've been better slotting in as number 2's. If Poile could ever acquire a true number 1, other guys would slot down into spots that fit their skill sets better. And honestly, the best center Poile ever had on any of his teams was Jason Allison and unfortunately, his career got derailed by injuries.
Poile did fleece the Rangers many years ago trading Bobby Carpenter, who was a high draft pick, I believe number 2 overall for 2 second line centers in Mike Ridley and Kelly Miller. Both went on to solid careers but were not game breakers, much like we've seen here over the years. Carpenter's career was killed by injuries too so while Poile got out from under that possibility, he moved a more dynamic player for two lesser players.
If Poile were to build our top 9 with all top 6 players and have a 4th line with 3rd liners (HERD is already in place), we might get over the hump. Unfortunately, he builds a top 6 with two second lines and then his bottom 6 is the traditional bottom 6, which is why we're good enough to get into the playoffs but never quite good enough to make the leap to true contenders.
- Aug 13, 2007
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Tomasino isnt available. Hes not in the minors because hes in the doghouse, hes there because the powers that be thought it best for his development.
We arent sellers, at least not yet. And Kravstov is shit. You can keep him.
Bringer of Jollity
Registered User
Geeez, listening to this place you'd think we were Columbus (sorry Viqsi) or freaking Arizona or something. What a drag...
Porter Stoutheart
Seen Stamkos?
- Jun 14, 2017
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Showcase time!
No, you see it's much much worse to be us because unlike them we can't even dream of drafting Berard...
Tomasino will be playing with Johansen and Granlund. Glass Duchene and Nino will be the other line.
Armourboy
Hey! You suck!
Well for the first 30 seconds anyways. With the way Hynes moves lines who knows how long that will last.
Lol.... well right now it is either squeek into the playoffs or get crushed emotionally by just missing it. Its going to be an emotional couple weeksShowcase time!
No, you see it's much much worse to be us because unlike them we can't even dream of drafting Berard...
So start game
Duchene glass sissons
Nino joey granlund
Trenin parssinen jeannot
Smith novak tomasino
End game
Duchene glass josi
Nino joey granlund
Trenin sissons jeannot
Smith parssinen *pressbox*
Duchene glass sissons
Nino joey granlund
Trenin parssinen jeannot
Smith novak tomasino
End game
Duchene glass josi
Nino joey granlund
Trenin sissons jeannot
Smith parssinen *pressbox*
Scoresberg
Perpetual Mediocrity
Good that they called up Tomasino and are giving him top-six minutes. At the same time, I'm more than baffled by Pärssinen's usage. Only 10 minutes in the last game, for example.
Forsberg was in a heater when Parsinnen was centering his line. They moved Parsinnen down and Forsberg scored only 1 goal after that. What do I know though. I’m just a hockey illiterate fan.
Porter Stoutheart
Seen Stamkos?
- Jun 14, 2017
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Hynes has a baffling habit of trying to fix things that ain't broke, doesn't he?
Scoresberg
Perpetual Mediocrity
And look, I'm liking Glass on the top line as well. I just think that how Pärssinen came up and put up points even on the 4th line, he should've been rewarded somehow. Instead, they've just trimmed down his ice-time and right now he's playing with known-scorers such as Smith and Jankowski.
Our points per 60 leaders (all situations):
Forsberg 2.88
Duchene 2.79
Pärssinen 2.35
Glass 2.15
Josi 2.05
Johansen 1.98
Why not go:
Forsberg - Glass - Duchene
Pärssinen - Johansen - Niederraiter
Granlund - Novak - Smith
Jeannot - Sissons - Trenin
Our points per 60 leaders (all situations):
Forsberg 2.88
Duchene 2.79
Pärssinen 2.35
Glass 2.15
Josi 2.05
Johansen 1.98
Why not go:
Forsberg - Glass - Duchene
Pärssinen - Johansen - Niederraiter
Granlund - Novak - Smith
Jeannot - Sissons - Trenin
Bringer of Jollity
Registered User
Parssinen is at 36 games and is...8th in TOI/GP amongst forwards, 11 seconds off Jeannot, 18 off Sissons. I'd wager they're trying to pace/manage his time as much as him being "punished," especially after seeing all of Jeannot, Trenin, Carrier, Tomasino, Fabbro hitting walls last year.
I don't want to see Parssinen playing wing. We have to stop thinking it's a good development path for centers to play on the wing. Just be more patient with them the same way defensemen are developed.
Since Forsberg and Duchene are the top wingers on the roster, why not evaluate their play with the centers they’ve played with and base the top two lines off of that? Forsberg was scoring at a pretty good clip beside Parsinnen, Duchene has been scoring at a pretty good clip alongside Glass. Why not put them together on the top two lines and put Granlund and Niederreiter on the other wings of those lines. Is that a ridiculous concept?
It's not ridiculous at all. Coaches,, including the Preds coaches, talk about finding two players that work well together then adding a third complimentary player.
The position this team is in now, excluding Forsberg's injury, is that Hynes "almost lost the room" and it was because he had demoted the veterans so after the meeting he's given them their ice time and PP1 positions back.
Using Glass and Parssinen as your top two centers pushes Johansen down the lineup which won't go over well, and maybe Parssinen is lagging a bit so it's a bit more complicated than just getting Parssinen and Glass with the most talented wingers at the same time. Seems like it's a choice of either Glass or Parssinen as #1 center Johansen as #2, the odd man out then gets 3rd or 4th line duties.
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