Predators Hockey Discussion 22-23

[Armourboy]

I think more than one thing can be true at a time. The players need to play harder and better but Hynes isn't a good coach.

Remember last year all of the guys we are now complaining about not giving effort all had either career years or close to it, heck Josi had one we haven't seen in decades and Hynes still couldn't do anything with it.

I think a better thought is that if they guys play hard and well they can win a lot of games, but Hynes is so poor that effort and good play can only take them so far.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

I think more than one thing can be true at a time. The players need to play harder and better but Hynes isn't a good coach.

Remember last year all of the guys we are now complaining about not giving effort all had either career years or close to it, heck Josi had one we haven't seen in decades and Hynes still couldn't do anything with it.

I think a better thought is that if they guys play hard and well they can win a lot of games, but Hynes is so poor that effort and good play can only take them so far.

Both of those things can definitely be true at the same time.

The reasons for the poor results the last 30 some games last year and the beginning of this year aren't the same problems or on an equal level so throwing them in the same "the coach just sucks" bucket just doesn't work for me.

The beginning of this season was much more reminiscent of the first half of 2021 season where the veterans played like shit the goal tending was less than ideal and the secondary scoring was non-existent. We know that season turned around because of the youth taking over and adjusting the culture during the stretch of injuries and supplying some scoreing depth. Some of the veterans then played better as they came back from injury and Saros was great so the team climbed back into playoff contention.

Last year had a rough first 5-6 games but once they got on track they looked great. The new whittled down "core" had bought in and were playing the system, there was secondary scoring from forwards, the D were chipping in some scoring as well, and Saros was at the top of his game again.
After the all-star break last year three things happened.
One, the younger players faded and most of the secondary scoring dried up.
Two, the high scoring core were still racking up points, mostly, on the PP but were also giving up too many goals and getting out scored 5v5.
Third, Saros cooled off magnifying the issues in numbers 1 and 2 then was injured at the end of the season creating a complete collapse. Not only did they fall out of the WC1 spot they then had to play the buzzsaw that was the Avalanche who only lost 4 games in the playoffs and swept two teams, one of them being Edmonton, the land of first overall draft picks and a revolving door at GM and coach.

This year's first 20 games, like the start of the 2021 season, sees the core gifted minutes and PP status but vastly under performing and Saros being less than ideal. The second twenty has been a type of youth movement again, creating some secondary scoring and allowing for the demotion of the core players as a wakeup call. Hell, I'm glad that they were pissed and "Hynes almost lost the room" since the core players were "lost" since the beginning of the season as far as team success goes, all while getting everything they wanted.

What remains to be seen is what this team can do while the core has their heads screwed on right offensively and defensively, the youngsters continue to create secondary scoring and not be liabilities defensively, and Saros stays healthy and plays to his capabilities.

 

[Armourboy]

Both of those things can definitely be true at the same time.

The reasons for the poor results the last 30 some games last year and the beginning of this year aren't the same problems or on an equal level so throwing them in the same "the coach just sucks" bucket just doesn't work for me.

The beginning of this season was much more reminiscent of the first half of 2021 season where the veterans played like shit the goal tending was less than ideal and the secondary scoring was non-existent. We know that season turned around because of the youth taking over and adjusting the culture during the stretch of injuries and supplying some scoreing depth. Some of the veterans then played better as they came back from injury and Saros was great so the team climbed back into playoff contention.

Last year had a rough first 5-6 games but once they got on track they looked great. The new whittled down "core" had bought in and were playing the system, there was secondary scoring from forwards, the D were chipping in some scoring as well, and Saros was at the top of his game again.
After the all-star break last year three things happened.
One, the younger players faded and most of the secondary scoring dried up.
Two, the high scoring core were still racking up points, mostly, on the PP but were also giving up too many goals and getting out scored 5v5.
Third, Saros cooled off magnifying the issues in numbers 1 and 2 then was injured at the end of the season creating a complete collapse. Not only did they fall out of the WC1 spot they then had to play the buzzsaw that was the Avalanche who only lost 4 games in the playoffs and swept two teams, one of them being Edmonton, the land of first overall draft picks and a revolving door at GM and coach.

This year's first 20 games, like the start of the 2021 season, sees the core gifted minutes and PP status but vastly under performing and Saros being less than ideal. The second twenty has been a type of youth movement again, creating some secondary scoring and allowing for the demotion of the core players as a wakeup call. Hell, I'm glad that they were pissed and "Hynes almost lost the room" since the core players were "lost" since the beginning of the season as far as team success goes, all while getting everything they wanted.

What remains to be seen is what this team can do while the core has their heads screwed on right offensively and defensively, the youngsters continue to create secondary scoring and not be liabilities defensively, and Saros stays healthy and plays to his capabilities.

Hard to say because we don't really know. Once other teams take a step up even playing as well as we did early last year I don't know if we would stack up all that well.

I'm just not convinced Hynes can make changes in game plans that are effective. He seems to like to just keep pounding the same thing hoping something will change.

 

[herzausstein]

I will say there have been some big stretches were the top players looked like they were there to collect a paycheck not win a game.

 

[Flgatorguy87]

Or maybe the eight million dollar babies need to grow up and start playing better so the whole team can enjoy a successful season? Remember at the beginning of the season when people were fussing that the top players weren't getting benched for screwing up? And now it's horrible coaching that the top players mad about their icetime getting cut? Which do we want, the country club where players are always happy or accountability where lazy/selfish player lose icetime?

Glass seems to be doing just fine. Both he and the coaches have talked about his confidence issues earlier in the season and how he had to work through them. Yet, here it's all this stuff about Cody being better in spite of the coaching staff when Cody himself gives them credit. Here, it's a story about Hynes lying to the media about the path Cody took when Cody himself confirms this path in the media.

Coaches and systems don't make shitty passes, drop good passes, skate into 1v4 situations in the Nzone just to turn the puck iver and give up a breakaway, watch opponents score goals without lifting a finger to help in the Dzone, cry about not getting icetime when playing like shit, and overall just in general be mentally checked out.

If there really was a team meeting held by Hynes before the StL game that had a "you all have to play like you give a shit if you want to win" type message that fell on deaf ears, I'd put money on the message that Johansen had for the players was basically the same damn thing only it was also an admission of guilt and a request to the coaching staff to put the $8M guys back in their top 6 rolls with their dedicated PP1 status. Essentially the same thing that happened summer of 21 before they all had career years then got comfortable and lazy again.

Hynes may never win a cup or amount to any more than what we've seen so far but to act like this set of top players are victims of his bad coaching is just foolish. You can see examples every single game and during the bad games it's every single shift that these top players are out to lunch and letting their teammates down.

The group around here that has chosen to hate Hynes has basically come out and said as much and I don't think that's changing. They don't find his judgement trustworthy nor does he have any skins on the wall to get any slack.

The fanbase as a whole is in a weird place and I am starting to think that alone is a reason for changing something in the leadership with Poile and Hynes. You obviously can't run a team based purely on fan perception and opinions, but at a certain point it has to factor in if you are simultaneously in a doldrum as an organization. I think the option becomes more viable the longer we stay in this middle section. A 1st round exit could be a bigger trigger than missing the playoffs in my opinion.

 

[weeze]

The group around here that has chosen to hate Hynes has basically come out and said as much and I don't think that's changing. They don't find his judgement trustworthy nor does he have any skins on the wall to get any slack.

The fanbase as a whole is in a weird place and I am starting to think that alone is a reason for changing something in the leadership with Poile and Hynes. You obviously can't run a team based purely on fan perception and opinions, but at a certain point it has to factor in if you are simultaneously in a doldrum as an organization. I think the option becomes more viable the longer we stay in this middle section. A 1st round exit could be a bigger trigger than missing the playoffs in my opinion.

It will only be a trigger for GMDP as the Ownership has already stated they are not Hockey people and will defer to GMDP for all Hockey decisions. The current owners will be glad for a first round playoff. Two games at home with a full barn, thats just what they would want.

 

[Flgatorguy87]

It will only be a trigger for GMDP as the Ownership has already stated they are not Hockey people and will defer to GMDP for all Hockey decisions. The current owners will be glad for a first round playoff. Two games at home with a full barn, thats just what they would want.

New ownership blood is coming

 

[Armourboy]

New ownership blood is coming

But ain't there yet.

 

[Scoresberg]

Ultimately, it boils down to this:

Most can agree that we are pretty much in the same spot as we were under Lavy, roster-wise. Arguably, Lavy had even weaker roster to work with.

BUT

During Laviolette's Era, in the first year we matched up in the playoffs against the eventual Cup Champs and almost beat them without Weber. There were a few overtime games and had we managed to turn those around, we would've won the series. Very good series overall for us.

The second year, we beat the Ducks who were a strong team in 7 games. Second round, we were gassed from all the travel and yet took the eventual WC Champs the Sharks to 7 games. Another good playoff run for us.

Third year.. well, I don't need to go into that.

Fourth year, we won the President's Trophy and went onto the 2nd round against the 2nd best team in the league, the Jets. It was a really tight series overall, and we happened to be wrong side of. Definitely a positive season overall, and frankly, that series could've also gone in our way as well.

Fifth year.. that's when things started to fall apart.

But basically, the same level of team as we have right now. Vezina-goaltending, Norris-level defenseman, and a couple more "star" forwards than in Lavy's Era who had Ribeiro and Fisher as his top-six centers.

Question is, do you see the above happening under Hynes?

 

[Kat Predator]

The group around here that has chosen to hate Hynes has basically come out and said as much and I don't think that's changing. They don't find his judgement trustworthy nor does he have any skins on the wall to get any slack.

The fanbase as a whole is in a weird place and I am starting to think that alone is a reason for changing something in the leadership with Poile and Hynes. You obviously can't run a team based purely on fan perception and opinions, but at a certain point it has to factor in if you are simultaneously in a doldrum as an organization. I think the option becomes more viable the longer we stay in this middle section. A 1st round exit could be a bigger trigger than missing the playoffs in my opinion.

Hate framing misses the mark.

Sports is a results oriented business. John Hynes could be your best friend, but it's clear from the record he hasn't elevated this team. Not yet. Maybe never. He has no track record of elevating any NHL team. It comes down to a business economics decision in the end. Blind loyalty, love, and bosom buddy-ness aside.

Hopefully he finds a magic bean in his sock drawer and we win the Cup. That'd be great. Don't demand everyone hold their breath to be a bona fide fan though.

 

[LCPreds]

I get that Lavy may not have always had great rosters but that SCF/Pres Trophy group was far better than what we have right now. I just have this fear that regardless of what happens with Hynes we are most likely stuck in no man's land for the next several years. But with that said I'd rather we try replacing Hynes vs. screwing around with the roster. The last time Poile decided to go roster over coach it cost us Fiala. (I'm leaving Tolvy out of this due to sample size)

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I get that Lavy may not have always had great rosters but that SCF/Pres Trophy group was far better than what we have right now. I just have this fear that regardless of what happens with Hynes we are most likely stuck in no man's land for the next several years. But with that said I'd rather we try replacing Hynes vs. screwing around with the roster. The last time Poile decided to go roster over coach it cost us Fiala. (I'm leaving Tolvy out of this due to sample size)

Hm, I'm not at all convinced that the SCF/Pres Trophy group was "far better" than what we have right now. Especially with the injuries at the time. We got on a roll, but the personnel was... possibly inferior? We did have a nicer conjunction on defense, because Subban was basically a Norris-level type of player, but Josi wasn't as dominant then as he is today. Ellis wasn't much different than if you just turned Carrier loose. Johansen and Smith and Wilson were hurt. All those guys like Yannick Weber, Zolniercyk, McLeod, Gaudreau, Aberg... those guys were worse than what we have on hand today, right? Jarnkrok was his usual no-show, and Fisher also had a pretty awful playoff. Despite all those depth holes, we got onto a run.

That's why you always want to make the playoffs. But I do feel like today's roster should be capable of going off on some kind of similar run if the stars aligned. And should be capable of making the playoffs to get that dice roll. Whereas... we're lagging behind making the cut on the entry criterion to that right now.

 

[LCPreds]

You really think the current roster might be close to as good as that one? Come on. They got on a run because they finally started to gel at the right time. I would be totally with you if they hadn’t followed that up with a Pres Trophy season.

Maybe I’m wrong but I see no way this current roster sneaks in to the playoffs, wins the whole thing, and even sniffs a preds trophy next year. There is no way that happens. It’s far more likely we miss the playoffs this season and next.

 

[Flgatorguy87]

Hate framing misses the mark.

Sports is a results oriented business. John Hynes could be your best friend, but it's clear from the record he hasn't elevated this team. Not yet. Maybe never. He has no track record of elevating any NHL team. It comes down to a business economics decision in the end. Blind loyalty, love, and bosom buddy-ness aside.

Hopefully he finds a magic bean in his sock drawer and we win the Cup. That'd be great. Don't demand everyone hold their breath to be a bona fide fan though.

Nobody is demanding anything. In my few interactions with you, you seem to consistently create an extreme view or stance that doesn't exist so you have an argument to push back on.

I am pretty sure I stated the best option for the fan base was to move on, as well as stating your same point that he hasn't gotten results and has no skins on the wall. What are you pushing back against?

"Hate" in this capacity was my way of saying there is a group of fans on this board that tend to heavily weigh the failures and quickly dismiss any success as luck. I do understand you don't actually have hate for the man that you have probably never met and only see on TV.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

You really think the current roster might be close to as good as that one? Come on. They got on a run because they finally started to gel at the right time. I would be totally with you if they hadn’t followed that up with a Pres Trophy season.

Maybe I’m wrong but I see no way this current roster sneaks in to the playoffs, wins the whole thing, and even sniffs a preds trophy next year. There is no way that happens. It’s far more likely we miss the playoffs this season and next.

Yes, the current roster for the first 60-70% of last season was one of the best teams in the NHL. We fell off a cliff after that, but the idea that we could have 3 balanced scoring lines, a solid D group, great size and physicality, and Vezina-level goaltending DOES say we should be an outside-shot mini-Contender. We currently aren't a even that kind of Contender, however. But to me, yes, that is 100% on coaching. That's what I see.

I know the organization is kind of self-arguing against that viewpoint for some reason, but c'mon man, you are letting them off the hook if you just buy into that. I definitely agree that we are likely to miss the playoffs this season and next. But the key is: we SHOULDN'T be in that situation. Look at the rosters on half the teams that do make the playoffs. We aren't worse, on paper. We just don't have the coaching/cohesion/chemistry/mojo to be there. We aren't one of the mega-stacked Top Contenders. But just like that previous Lavy team, we SHOULD be able to put up a better fight as an Underdog. That we aren't there, and that we are just passively accepting that grinds my gears.

 

[triggrman]

You really think the current roster might be close to as good as that one? Come on. They got on a run because they finally started to gel at the right time. I would be totally with you if they hadn’t followed that up with a Pres Trophy season.

Maybe I’m wrong but I see no way this current roster sneaks in to the playoffs, wins the whole thing, and even sniffs a preds trophy next year. There is no way that happens. It’s far more likely we miss the playoffs this season and next.

Let's take a look at who made up that roster

Arvidsson
Forsberg
Neal
Fisher
Jarnkrok
Johansen
Smith (only had 12 goals that season)
Wilson
Fiala
Sissons
Watson
Ribeiro (46 games, 25 points)

Josi
Ekholm
Subban
Ellis
Weber
Irwin

I'd say Forsberg and Duchene are as good as Arvy Forsberg.
Nino and Neal are close too.
Fisher was better all around than Granlund but Granlund better offensively.
I think Parssinen is equal to Jarnkrok
Johanssen then better than Johansen now.
Glass is better than Wilson
Trenin is equal to smith but better all around
Jeannot is better than Watson, all around
Fiala is better than Novak
Sissons now is better than Sissons then
Ribeiro is better than well you know

All and all up front, that team had a bit more experience but today's team has more overall talent.

Defensively.
Josi then and now are equal, weird, right
Subban that year is better than McDonagh today
Ekholm then better than Ekholm today
Ellis then better than Carrier today
Lauzon is way better than Irwin
Fabbro is way better than Weber.


Today's team is better skating defensively but that team's defense was stacked, today's not nearly as good.

 

[herzausstein]

Let's take a look at who made up that roster

Arvidsson
Forsberg
Neal
Fisher
Jarnkrok
Johansen
Smith (only had 12 goals that season)
Wilson
Fiala
Sissons
Watson
Ribeiro (46 games, 25 points)

Josi
Ekholm
Subban
Ellis
Weber
Irwin

I'd say Forsberg and Duchene are as good as Arvy Forsberg.
Nino and Neal are close too.
Fisher was better all around than Granlund but Granlund better offensively.
I think Parssinen is equal to Jarnkrok
Johanssen then better than Johansen now.
Glass is better than Wilson
Trenin is equal to smith but better all around
Jeannot is better than Watson, all around
Fiala is better than Novak
Sissons now is better than Sissons then
Ribeiro is better than well you know

All and all up front, that team had a bit more experience but today's team has more overall talent.

Defensively.
Josi then and now are equal, weird, right
Subban that year is better than McDonagh today
Ekholm then better than Ekholm today
Ellis then better than Carrier today
Lauzon is way better than Irwin
Fabbro is way better than Weber.


Today's team is better skating defensively but that team's defense was stacked, today's not nearly as good.

I think you are being a little generous to McRibs, FiFi, and Fish 'n' Chips.

McRibs didnt play a single playoff game because he was waived in Feb of that year and cleared. His nhl career was effectively over due to his off ice personal life.

Fiala was fresh on the scene. 11G 5A in 56 games. He was young and inexperienced. Is he better than Novak now... absolutely no doubt. Is Novak now with all his experience better than Fiala at the point in he career? Novak has 4G 7A in 19 games so hes producing better and has a more rounded game than Faila did at that point in his career.

16-17 was Mike Fishers last full nhl season and had clearly lost a step. Id put him and Granlund on even footing.

 

[triggrman]

Well, Ribs was the 12th forward listed, compare him to our current 12th forward.

I don't remember the Fish and Chips reference or the Fifi reference. So I don't know how to debate those.

If you break it down by positions
Centers now are better than the centers then, overall.
Wingers now are better than wingers then
Defense then is better than defense now.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Well, Ribs was the 12th forward listed, compare him to our current 12th forward.

I don't remember the Fish and Chips reference or the Fifi reference. So I don't know how to debate those.

If you break it down by positions
Centers now are better than the centers then, overall.
Wingers now are better than wingers then
Defense then is better than defense now.

And goaltending... possibly better "now". Just that Pekka had some breakdowns that run, alas.

All in all, now is at least not demonstrably "worse" than then. So if we could actually get that playoff wildcard slot, we're on par. We'd still need the critical roll to get on the run at the right time, but at least the opportunity is there.

And we're almost "intentionally" lagging behind having that opportunity atm, due to the obvious coaching issues that have not been addressed.

 

[Predsanddead24]

You can go back and read the threads from 16-17 and it doesn't seem like anyone thought that team was capable of going on a run either. In fact, there are a lot of posts that you could pretty much copy and paste into threads nowadays and change a couple names and get a lot of agreement. Specifically, a lot of people questioning Lavi as a coach and putting him on the hot seat. A lot of posts questioning if Pekka is on his way out and we should turn to Saros more. The thing is I think those were perfectly reasonable takes at the time, but things can change really quickly in the NHL. I don't particularly have confidence we could go on a run in the playoffs, but I think our roster is definitely capable of it. Similarly, I'm not crazy about Hynes but we've had runs under him where we've been as good as anyone in the league too.

 

[Armourboy]

Well, Ribs was the 12th forward listed, compare him to our current 12th forward.

I don't remember the Fish and Chips reference or the Fifi reference. So I don't know how to debate those.

If you break it down by positions
Centers now are better than the centers then, overall.
Wingers now are better than wingers then
Defense then is better than defense now.

Overall agree with one caveat on the defense. The top isn't as good but that bottom pairing today is far and away better than back then. For that reason alone I'm inclined to think as an overall group it's pretty close.

 

[herzausstein]

Overall agree with one caveat on the defense. The top isn't as good but that bottom pairing today is far and away better than back then. For that reason alone I'm inclined to think as an overall group it's pretty close.

How ive tried so hard to forget the y.weber/irwin pairing.

 

[drwpreds]

You can go back and read the threads from 16-17 and it doesn't seem like anyone thought that team was capable of going on a run either. In fact, there are a lot of posts that you could pretty much copy and paste into threads nowadays and change a couple names and get a lot of agreement.

Yep- in fact, there were a whole lot of Preds fans who wanted to blow it all up during that Cup run season.

You just never know what is going to happen.........

 

[drwpreds]

And speaking of the Cup run year, it is kind of mind blowing and a little depressing that it has almost been SIX years since that happened. Crazy. Although in some ways for me it feels like 20 years ago.

 

[LCPreds]

Overall agree with one caveat on the defense. The top isn't as good but that bottom pairing today is far and away better than back then. For that reason alone I'm inclined to think as an overall group it's pretty close.

I'm definitely a half empty kind of guy when it comes to the Preds and based on my comments above I'm super pessimistic, apparently to the opposition of many here, about the current roster.

So here's my question, and this is kind of addressed to all but using your post as the kick off:

If the roster is legit 'pretty close' then why are the results so terrible relatively speaking? It has to be Hynes, right? Because if we're establishing the rosters are comparable at a base level I don't know what else it could be. Other than an extreme amount of bad puck luck.