Predators Hockey Discussion 22-23

[Porter Stoutheart]

Fine, trade Trenin then. He'd get a haul as well, as he's locked in at $1.7 mil next year also after which he's a UFA.

Does it have to be today? I guess if you're Poile and you KNOW for sure based on your past dealings that he's eager to sail away from here (as opposed to only speculating based on circumstantial stuff like we do), then you can at least entertain the option.

And then it becomes a question whether you think his value would peak now, when the team is struggling and he has 3 goals on the season, and other teams have more Cap issues than usual, or whether his value might peak instead at next year's deadline if he has a better season and teams aren't facing as many Cap constraints (albeit he's just a rental at that point).

Again, I'm not going to be eager to "sell low" on any of our players, really. Not until you try the coaching change for a little while first, anyway.

I'm not satisfied settling for "Poile won't fire Hynes... so as a fallback let's start making trades". No, the correct answer is still "Fire Hynes". Whether Poile will do that or not, it's still the preferred option.

 

[AintLifeGrand]

Id be ok with trading saros. Saros still has a pretty good GAA and SV%. Hes just outside the top 10 (minimum 20 games played) in sv%. Nashville is 6th worst team in shots against per game and 3rd worst team in goals for per game. So hes doing pretty well considering he gets shelled consistently and has no goal support. I bet a team like columbus would give alot to have that kind of goaltending. Wed probably have to take elvis back but thatd only increase the return. Elvis minds the net until Askarov usurps him.

yea i think Lankinen could hold it down until Askarov arrives

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Id be ok with trading saros. Saros still has a pretty good GAA and SV%. Hes just outside the top 10 (minimum 20 games played) in sv%. Nashville is 6th worst team in shots against per game and 3rd worst team in goals for per game. So hes doing pretty well considering he gets shelled consistently and has no goal support. I bet a team like columbus would give alot to have that kind of goaltending. Wed probably have to take elvis back but thatd only increase the return. Elvis minds the net until Askarov usurps him.

Good lord, that would definitely put us in the fight for a couple top-5 draft picks anyway. I don't see the sense in this. It's more just flailing out of boredom, right? We have no idea if Askarov will EVER usurp any NHL goalie, and our team simply should not be so bad that we just start trading our best players and committing to blowing things up like this. It's one step too soon for this kind of stuff.

Hire me a decent new coach, see that guy fail as badly as Hynes with these players, and maybe next year I'll get on board. But until then it's just...

No?

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

I don't know what people are expecting out of firing the coach. We're about a #15-#26 team in the league under Hynes. Under a new "good" coach I see us as maybe a #12-#21. The players just aren't that good. Career years from nearly everyone last year has created an illusion of talent that isn't really there. At best, this team is average to above average--and that best (from most of these guys) isn't sustainable.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I don't know what people are expecting out of firing the coach. We're about a #15-#26 team in the league under Hynes. Under a new "good" coach I see us as maybe a #12-#21. The players just aren't that good. Career years from nearly everyone last year has created an illusion of talent that isn't really there. At best, this team is average to above average--and that best (from most of these guys) isn't sustainable.

I think there is a difference between "expect" and "hope". Because you can scan a few other rosters of current playoff teams, and like was mentioned somewhere in a thread recently, other teams with pretty mediocre-looking lineups are doing well with new coaches. It's not JUST our players. There is A LOT of parity in the league, and "good coaching" can make a far bigger difference than just scanning the player roster. Again, we had a Vezina finalist, the guy who should have won the Norris, and two 40-goal scorers last year. Our players are not THAT bad.

But I put "good coaching" in quotations because largely I think that is just a matter of luck and players buying into something or being relieved at a change after things had gone stale in some fashion. None of these guys at the NHL level is actually a "bad coach". But they can become "bad" in relation in a given situation, that's just the nature of the beast. I'm sure Hynes knows every system in the book and works very hard. He might work out somewhere else. He's a smart and dedicated guy. But for whatever reason, he is clearly not the man for the job here right now.

So a coaching change is just the next logical try. Sometimes it works out, and there is also a chance that it won't. It's not an automatic guaranteed SOLUTION. But at this point it has become an obvious thing to try. I don't EXPECT a coaching change to be a solution. But I can at least HOPE that it might be.

Also: I would be very happy with #12 at this point.

 

[Kat Predator]

I don't see how trading away the younger players that have been brought up under Hynes helps anything. It won't make the coach better. It won't fix what's wrong with the high priced big name players who have floundered this season. And a manila folder of draft picks won't be ready to play any time soon. So the strategy screws the team short-term and medium- to long-term all on the hope that some day things will be different because ya know, leprechauns and horseshoes.

 

[Scoresberg]

It's quite fascinating. What do people - that don't want to fire Hynes - want to do?

Is this it? Because like we've gone over here, you cannot trade our big-salary players, nobody will take them. We're not willing to play our youngster so good luck finding a solution there. Not sure if they'd be open to trading the guys who actually have value (Jeannot, Trenin, one of the younger D).

What do we do then? Are we content sitting here? Something needs to be done, period. And firing the coach is the logical solution in that scenario.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

It's quite fascinating. What do people - that don't want to fire Hynes - want to do?

Is this it? Because like we've gone over here, you cannot trade our big-salary players, nobody will take them. We're not willing to play our youngster so good luck finding a solution there. Not sure if they'd be open to trading the guys who actually have value (Jeannot, Trenin, one of the younger D).

What do we do then? Are we content sitting here? Something needs to be done, period. And firing the coach is the logical solution in that scenario.

Are there even any people who don't want to fire Hynes?

I thought everybody did. Except some just think it's "not gonna happen" so are spinning their wheels trying to find some other thing to do to keep ourselves entertained?

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

It's quite fascinating. What do people - that don't want to fire Hynes - want to do?

Is this it? Because like we've gone over here, you cannot trade our big-salary players, nobody will take them. We're not willing to play our youngster so good luck finding a solution there. Not sure if they'd be open to trading the guys who actually have value (Jeannot, Trenin, one of the younger D).

What do we do then? Are we content sitting here? Something needs to be done, period. And firing the coach is the logical solution in that scenario.

I don't really care either way. I can see strong arguments for firing him, but I also don't have high expectations of anyone that replaces him. We are still in a transition phase (despite Poile backing us right up against the cap as though we're a contender) and are going to be up and down until some of these expensive contracts clear and more of the youngsters develop/pan out.

What I wanted to see happen going into the season was acquire two depth scoring pieces, a depth d-man (not a $6M+ one) to help insulate Fabbro/Carrier, run three scoring lines, give all of Glass, Tomasino, Tolvanen, Jeannot, even Trenin, etc.. reasonable opportunities in more offensive deployments, and run a single grinder/Herd line as the 4th (Sissons+).

At this point, I'm not sure what realistic direction I want to see us go in, I'm just not at all that convinced that firing Hynes ultimately gets us in a much different spot.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

McKeown called back up. Dunno if somebody is under the weather or it’s just sensible precaution with back to back games and awkward travel timing.

 

[weeze]

Good lord, that would definitely put us in the fight for a couple top-5 draft picks anyway. I don't see the sense in this. It's more just flailing out of boredom, right? We have no idea if Askarov will EVER usurp any NHL goalie, and our team simply should not be so bad that we just start trading our best players and committing to blowing things up like this. It's one step too soon for this kind of stuff.

Hire me a decent new coach, see that guy fail as badly as Hynes with these players, and maybe next year I'll get on board. But until then it's just...

No?

I think what the fans (this forum) want and what the Owner's want may not be the same. I think the current owners are ok with just making the playoffs and hoping the team can win a round maybe two. Get that playoff revenue and exposure. The fans want a SC or at least look like we are trying to win the SC. I don't think the owners care if they do or not at this moment.

So, until something changes and decides they WANT to go for and win the SC nothing will change. GMDP can make his moves, the team can make the playoffs and all is hunky-dory in Predville per the owners (current).

 

[Armourboy]

Let's pump the brakes a bit here.

Yep. This ownership group has shown no sign that they are willing to do a full on rebuild which is what many of these trades basically point too. Besides the issues isn't guys like Trenin or Jeannot in the first place, so if that's the guys we are moving nothing is going to change because the core is the same.

The start is getting rid of Hynes. If Poile isn't doing that first the last thing I want him doing is a bunch of trades because he won't be doing them to build for the future but to try and make this team better now. As long as Hynes is here that isn't going to happen I don't care who you add.

I don't think Hynes is a good coach not matter what team or situation you put him in. I think he could turn the AV's of last season into a wildcard team.

 

[ShagDaddy]

Yep. This ownership group has shown no sign that they are willing to do a full on rebuild which is what many of these trades basically point too. Besides the issues isn't guys like Trenin or Jeannot in the first place, so if that's the guys we are moving nothing is going to change because the core is the same.

The start is getting rid of Hynes. If Poile isn't doing that first the last thing I want him doing is a bunch of trades because he won't be doing them to build for the future but to try and make this team better now. As long as Hynes is here that isn't going to happen I don't care who you add.

I don't think Hynes is a good coach not matter what team or situation you put him in. I think he could turn the AV's of last season into a wildcard team.

I think you’ve pointed out, in my opinion, the root of what and where the Preds are at this point. The ownership group are not hockey people, they’re very good business people that wanted to keep the team in Nashville. I’m grateful for them doing that. They just want the ROI off their investment and that’s how the team is built, be competitive enough to get butts in the seat, hopefully get a round of playoff revenue maybe two.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

I think you’ve pointed out, in my opinion, the root of what and where the Preds are at this point. The ownership group are not hockey people, they’re very good business people that wanted to keep the team in Nashville. I’m grateful for them doing that. They just want the ROI off their investment and that’s how the team is built, be competitive enough to get butts in the seat, hopefully get a round of playoff revenue maybe two.

Isn't that every group of owners though. Is Jeffrey Vinik a hockey person (moreso than a ROI one)? The Wirtz family? Stan Kroenke? I don't know of a lot of hockey owners that are more Mark Cuban instead of Eugene Melnyk.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I think what the fans (this forum) want and what the Owner's want may not be the same. I think the current owners are ok with just making the playoffs and hoping the team can win a round maybe two. Get that playoff revenue and exposure. The fans want a SC or at least look like we are trying to win the SC. I don't think the owners care if they do or not at this moment.

So, until something changes and decides they WANT to go for and win the SC nothing will change. GMDP can make his moves, the team can make the playoffs and all is hunky-dory in Predville per the owners (current).

Although, in case the owners haven’t checked lately… this team has almost no chance of making the playoffs now, and there is some fan apathy starting to creep in.

So if they just want to make the playoffs and see butts in seats… well, even those objectives are in some peril right now. A “smart businessman” might be advised to recognize those things and try to head them off at the pass?

My feeling is they don’t even really look that closely at all but just trust Poile implicitly. If Poile tells them everything is hunky dory, then that’s all they need. When the ship is already sitting at the bottom of the North Atlantic, long after any iceberg alerts went out, that’s when ownership could come into play. So to me, it’s 100% up to Poile to save us, I’m not looking at ownership. Maybe once Haslam is fully engaged that will change, but that’s not now either.

They are also still working to close that deal right? Maybe there isn’t anything that is allowed to be done anyway? Trading contracts, taking on deadweight salary for fired coaches, it all touches bottom lines that maybe they can’t touch until the deal closes or something?

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Just for a little perspective since hyperbole seems to be the favorite type of post here, there are eight young players still in their RFA years in the lineup right now. Half of the Dmen are younger developing players and 3 of 4 centers are young prospects, one of them is just 21 and in his first season in North America.

This narrative that Hynes WON'T play younger players is just not accurate, it may not be the players YOU want or on the timeline YOU want, but they are playing. Poile ultimately makes the decision to call up, waive, or trade players so clearly he's seeing this the same way Hynes does as far as evaluating the prospects readiness to play in the NHL so that is not going to be a reason Poile would fire his coach.

Regardless of what is said around here about the treatment of Glass, he is now getting the responsibility and trust from the coaches to be matched up with the top players in the league. He was also complimentary of the communication that he had with the staff throughout this process in the article posted earlier in this thread.

I would be willing to bet that if Tomasino puts together a 10 game streak in Milwaukee where he is scoring a point or more per game he'll get a look in Nashville. Management wants to see that desire and determination to prove that he belongs in the NHL by getting big results as a scoring winger in a lower league.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I guess the other thing I ponder on the business side of things… maybe they have a calculation that says they can profit almost as much from really hyping up the Entry Draft ad from playing a couple of playoff games? And the Draft hype will sell better if we have a really high pick?

I envy the many of you actually in town because it’ll be fun to really get into that. Maybe we should be talking a lot more about it here and getting to know the prospects, really.

It doesn’t mean they have to go full Tank, or trade core players or anybody at all really. But if it just so happens the team is bombing on the ice, maybe having a much higher draft pick in the year you host the draft makes it less urgent to try to fix certain problems?

 

[ShagDaddy]

Check out Nashville Predators new owner on wiki.

List of current NHL franchise owners - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Armourboy]

Just for a little perspective since hyperbole seems to be the favorite type of post here, there are eight young players still in their RFA years in the lineup right now. Half of the Dmen are younger developing players and 3 of 4 centers are young prospects, one of them is just 21 and in his first season in North America.

This narrative that Hynes WON'T play younger players is just not accurate, it may not be the players YOU want or on the timeline YOU want, but they are playing. Poile ultimately makes the decision to call up, waive, or trade players so clearly he's seeing this the same way Hynes does as far as evaluating the prospects readiness to play in the NHL so that is not going to be a reason Poile would fire his coach.

Regardless of what is said around here about the treatment of Glass, he is now getting the responsibility and trust from the coaches to be matched up with the top players in the league. He was also complimentary of the communication that he had with the staff throughout this process in the article posted earlier in this thread.

I would be willing to bet that if Tomasino puts together a 10 game streak in Milwaukee where he is scoring a point or more per game he'll get a look in Nashville. Management wants to see that desire and determination to prove that he belongs in the NHL by getting big results as a scoring winger in a lower league.

Sure they are now but that's mostly because he didn't have any other choice. Due to injuries most of those guys finally got an opportunity to play because he literally had no one else to stick in the lineup.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Sure they are now but that's mostly because he didn't have any other choice. Due to injuries most of those guys finally got an opportunity to play because he literally had no one else to stick in the lineup.

Who is injured?

 

[Kat Predator]

Who is injured?

No one. [Ed: Boro. Forgot about him, oops.]

For the record and purpose of discussion, from opening day roster there are the following subtractions:

McCarron is out (but not injured).
Tolvanen is gone. [Those that felt he would fail will be happy to know he's been an absolute zero and forgotten for the Kraken.]
Sherwood was sent down.
Sanford was sent down.

And these additions: Jankowski, Parssinen, Novak, McKeown (D)

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Who is injured?

Wasn't it mostly Forsberg, Ellis, and Duchene? We learned Carrier could replace Ellis, we didn't really need Ellis and his gaudy extension anymore. We learned we could try Tolvanen in Forsberg's spot on the half wall on the PP, and it kind of worked - no it didn't work - no wait, it might have if they put him on the other side, and... well that year we already knew that Duchene sucked, but it gave us the chance to bring up Jeannot, and Herd 1.0 with Olivier could be transformed into something far more deadly with Jeannot. And then there were a smattering of other things with a few other shorter injuries. We learned Davies sucked, Arvidsson was useless without the breakout bombs, Saros could indeed take over from Pekka as full-time #1... there were quite a few transformational things that came out of those injuries and allowed a few young players to step up who might otherwise not have had the chance.

 

[Kat Predator]

Wasn't it mostly Forsberg, Ellis, and Duchene? We learned Carrier could replace Ellis, we didn't really need Ellis and his gaudy extension anymore. We learned we could try Tolvanen in Forsberg's spot on the half wall on the PP, and it kind of worked - no it didn't work - no wait, it might have if they put him on the other side, and... well that year we already knew that Duchene sucked, but it gave us the chance to bring up Jeannot, and Herd 1.0 with Olivier could be transformed into something far more deadly with Jeannot. And then there were a smattering of other things with a few other shorter injuries. We learned Davies sucked, Arvidsson was useless without the breakout bombs, Saros could indeed take over from Pekka as full-time #1... there were quite a few transformational things that came out of those injuries and allowed a few young players to step up who might otherwise not have had the chance.

This is another way to parse the question, for sure.

It points to what is the head scratcher. Yes, Hynes *did* show a willingness to play younger players. There was a really bad stretch of injuries there where he played a ton of depth, and it played very well.

But the confusing part was that on opening day this season, some of those same younger prospects didn't make the opening day roster. Glass is now being given an extended look at has responded. Tomasino seems like his development took a step or three backwards? And Tolvanen was an investment that just failed.

Hynes has changed his tune though with Parssinen and Novak getting their chances while Sherwood and Sanford were sent down to AHL tweener depth pieces and not top 6 forwards.

 

[glenngineer]

As of right now Arvidsson is healthy and playing how one would expect him to play when healthy. His health was the question at the time of the trade, whether he'd be able to play more than 50-60 games a season and how effective he could be after getting banged up during the season, which inevitably was going to happen playing in the central division.

I wish no ill will upon Viktor and I hope he has a long productive career. That doesn't mean it was a mistake to get the assets out of what seemed to be a broken player that got injured every season, including his first in LA.

Another move from Poile that you could've justified at the time it happened, but looking back the move - once again - looks really bad.

A proven 20-goal, 50-point scorer with term left on his deal for a 2nd and 3rd rounder.

Oh well, under Hynes he would've been waived or something.

NIF - agree with you here. We had no idea if he'd ever regain his health and to get assets for a possible broken player that was trending in the wrong direction was the right move at the time.

SB - looking back, it was the right move. His regular season production was never the issue. Once the playoffs started, he disappeared. That's where the big boys make their money. And by big boys, I don't mean size, it's guys who find that other level to perform on the biggest stage. I have no problem with Poile moving players like him, Jarnkrok and Ellis. Ellis put up decent offensive numbers all the while getting outmatched too many times physically on the back end.

Poile didn't draft Stevens. Interim general manager Roger Crozier managed the draft for the Capitals in June of 1982, Poile was hired in August 30, 1982.

I did not realize this. Always thought Stevens was a Poile guy. Still learning things all these years later.

FYI, you'll appreciate this if you didn't see me post about this a year or so ago. Look at the 1991 draft and the abject failure of Poile.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Something that is interesting to me about what it takes to be a professional athlete and the difference between elite talent and lower level talent or NHL vs AHL is how important it is to be able to combine skill-sets into a useful commodity.

As I've said several times, I haven't gotten to really watch a lot of game this season but over the holiday break I've been watching. And, something I've noticed and commented on in the last GDT is that it's rather odd how many high danger chances Smith is in position for, whether it's the breakaways (that we all see in the highlight packages) or the point blank wide open shots he gets from the slot, he seems to be in good position but can't score to save his life at this level. Well, after some smartass comments in that GDT I actually looked at some of his stats. Turns out, his AHL point numbers aren't bad and that's probably because he has a knack for getting high danger chances AND can beat AHL goalies. Looking at that it's conceivable that management was hoping for a 4th line grinder/ PK specialist that could put 7-10 pucks in the net per season but it turns out he just can't beat a NHL goalie.

Conversely, you have a player like Tolvanen, who has a NHL goalie beating shot but can't find any open ice to use it. We had all hoped he'd figure out how to get into the quiet areas of the ice and utilize that shot but it just never happened. Sure he plays hard and throws his body around making him an potential 4th line grinder with upside, not much different from Smith, but I'm sure he was hoping for another opportunity somewhere else so he was waived.

You give either one of those players that little bit of skill from the other person to round out their game and they are difference makers. Just amazes me to look at two players on one team that could be more if they just had that one talent the other one has but also can't utilize fully.