Predators Hockey Discussion 22-23

[Kat Predator]

Novak is still waiver exempt, though. He has 24 more GAMES before he loses that, so the usual stuff with 10 games or 30 days for non-exempt players isn't in play here. At least per CapFriendly. So nothing on that front changes with 4 days off in Milwaukee.

It's not like other teams didn't send some guys down too for a wee sliver of Cap savings during the 4 days off. A few others were treated likewise. Many many others were not.

I could be wrong, but sending him "down" as a paper transaction may reset some of the hourglasses.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Looking at our contracts that are big enough to actually gain significant capspace

Forsberg - not being traded after being signed.

Duchene - playing well but unlikely to have alot of positive value due to contract and then you have to actually replace his point per game pace hes been on since last season. I just dont see him as a good candidate.

Joey - good defensive 2C being paid 1C money. He can perform at 1C level at times but it has been rare for extended periods over the past several seasons. Might have some positive trade value if you retain heavily or take back a bad contract.

Granlund - likely has some positive value. Has been moved to wing recently. On a 50 point pace this season which is decent for his contract.

Ekholm - should have positive value. Contract is good for now but due to age buyers might be weary.

McDonagh - has a ntc and just got here. Doubt he goes anywhere.

Josi - one of the few players poile has given a nmc to. Hes nkt going anywhere.

Niederreiter - probably got good value but do we trade someone who just signed here and what does that day to future free agents.

I see best options as granlund, ekholm, nino. With granlund back at wing, i think hed be easier for us to move on from. It keeps joey with the team allowing some buffer on the young centers.

I would be surprised if any players - even decent ones - who have large Cap hits past this season would be movable. Guys like Ekholm, Granlund, Joey.... it's not about how good they are, it's just an extremely weird Cap situation coalescing for next season. If we took commensurate salary back, then we could probably trade them at "positive value", but then that sort of defeats the purpose. Or at least, we would have to take 1 season worth of Cap back to get past next year's blockage anyway; maybe teams would think they could get away with future years past that assuming the Cap would go up?

Anyway, I just don't see Poile living in this kind of mindspace. Same as the arguments against him doing retention or buyouts, I don't see him taking contract dumps back, and I don't see him wanting to dismantle his so-called "core" anyhow.

Not that we shouldn't talk about it ourselves, mind you. The further back we fall, the more we are going to talk about it anyway. As long as we keep the reality in the back of our minds at the same time.

 

[101st_fan]

Poile didn't draft Stevens. Interim general manager Roger Crozier managed the draft for the Capitals in June of 1982, Poile was hired in August 30, 1982.

So Poile is 0 for 90-100ish (all positions) rather than 0 for 50 ish (forwards only) when it comes to being the drafting GM of inducted players. He'll probably remain that way for at least another decade with the slim odds of a Rinne first ballot induction ... maybe if Josi makes it past 15 years, another Norris or two, with a few more point per game seasons. Weber's numbers are a few hundred points shy of what got Doug Wilson inducted as a player 17 years after retirement so I'm not holding my breath on that one.

It's probably less about cap and more about keeping his waiver exemption intact.

Waiver is based on games, not days on the roster.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I could be wrong, but sending him "down" as a paper transaction may reset some of the hourglasses.

I could also be wrong, but:

a) "paper transactions" were banned a couple CBAs back. Players sent down actually have to go somewhere. Although when the team the player is sent to is also not playing and it's a holiday season when all players are going elsewhere entirely for the holidays they may get some leeway on that. Nominally anyway, there is no such thing as a "paper transaction" anymore.

b) The only hourglasses for a waiver-exempt player like Novak are years since signing their contract and NHL games. Neither of which are ticking any differently in these 4 days. He doesn't have the same hourglasses as a non-exempt player like when we had Gross, McKeown, Gravel and those guys up.

 

[weeze]

Seems like he's using what he acts is an inevitably bad fate for Nashville to justify a horrible current situation for the Chicago players and fans that, by his estimation, is a guaranteed path to being a cup contender in a few years.

Oddly enough, Kane, a player that has to suffer through this season basically tells him he's fully of shit in a polite way and shoots down everything he's saying.

Tanking sucks for everyone and guarantees nothing in the future.

I think Chicago people are still pissed that the Preds swept them and they have been awful since then! And they blame the Preds for that!

 

[nine_inch_fang]

I think Chicago people are still pissed that the Preds swept them and they have been awful since then! And they blame the Preds for that!

Didn't even think about that, probably not wrong.

 

[KaraLupin]

Out of towner, how do you guys think your 1st, 2nd, 3rd line centers will look like in about 3 years (assume guys will pan out as expected currently) thanks!

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Another move from Poile that you could've justified at the time it happened, but looking back the move - once again - looks really bad.

A proven 20-goal, 50-point scorer with term left on his deal for a 2nd and 3rd rounder.

Oh well, under Hynes he would've been waived or something.

How does it look really bad? He hasn't played a full season for them yet.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Out of towner, how do you guys think your 1st, 2nd, 3rd line centers will look like in about 3 years (assume guys will pan out as expected currently) thanks!

I’m confident that Parssinen will be one of them anyway. Well, barring some unexpected injury issues. He probably doesn’t have the flashy skills to qualify as everybody’s idea of a “true #1” center. But he’s so smart and capable already at a young age that I can’t imagine him not holding one of those spots.

The rest… who knows. Glass is showing some signs of being able to stick but I don’t think of him as a slam dunk yet. Novak has some chance but he’s older and not sure if he has much upside to get even better. Either of Johansen or Sissons could still be in the picture if they age gracefully and are willing to be more “affordable veterans” vs their current premium salaries.

I doubt Svechkov or another already-drafted prospect would be ready yet? Maybe a slim chance if Tomasino got the strength they want him to he could switch back but I wouldn’t expect that.

So probably there is another UFA signing coming too once the Cap goes up and Johansen’s salary comes off the books.

 

[101st_fan]

I think Chicago people are still pissed that the Preds swept them and they have been awful since then! And they blame the Preds for that!

Nothing is ever their fault ... not the missed playoffs, cap hell, off ice criminal issues ... always somebody else to blame.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

I think Chicago people are still pissed that the Preds swept them and they have been awful since then! And they blame the Preds for that!

Eh, I doubt it. The dedicated fans can keep consoling themselves with their Cups, while the rest are now Avs fans.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Out of towner, how do you guys think your 1st, 2nd, 3rd line centers will look like in about 3 years (assume guys will pan out as expected currently) thanks!

Dunno
Dunno
Maybe Johansen (hopefully at much less money)/Sissons

I like what I've seen from Tomasino and Parssinen, but far too small a sample size for the latter (especially if a top 9 role) and the former I think probably ends up a winger. Glass I have hopes for but I'll be surprised if he sticks long-term.

 

[Scoresberg]

How does it look really bad? He hasn't played a full season for them yet.

.74 PPG since leaving Nashville. 60 pt pace over a full season.

How does it not look bad?

 

[nine_inch_fang]

.74 PPG since leaving Nashville. 60 pt pace over a full season.

How does it not look bad?

The point is, he was traded because of health concerns.

He didn't play a complete season last year, jury is still out on this season and the following seasons. Of all the decisions Poile has made to fuss about, this isn't on the list, not yet anyway.

This is just like the crying about losing Pitlick last season. For all the bitching done here, he was still waived by Minnesota part way through the season and isn't even in the league anymore.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

.74 PPG since leaving Nashville. 60 pt pace over a full season.

How does it not look bad?

He was a depreciating asset and has major durability question marks. He doesn't change our current predicament if he's still here and we got two assets that may be more valuable to our future than he was likely be. If he stays healthy through the duration of the contract then it only really looks bad in that we probably should have gotten a little more for him.

I agree with nine. There's a lot of issues to take with our roster building, but I'm not really fussed by either of the Arvy or Ellis trades.

 

[Olderfan]

I’m confident that Parssinen will be one of them anyway. Well, barring some unexpected injury issues. He probably doesn’t have the flashy skills to qualify as everybody’s idea of a “true #1” center. But he’s so smart and capable already at a young age that I can’t imagine him not holding one of those spots.

The rest… who knows. Glass is showing some signs of being able to stick but I don’t think of him as a slam dunk yet. Novak has some chance but he’s older and not sure if he has much upside to get even better. Either of Johansen or Sissons could still be in the picture if they age gracefully and are willing to be more “affordable veterans” vs their current premium salaries.

I doubt Svechkov or another already-drafted prospect would be ready yet? Maybe a slim chance if Tomasino got the strength they want him to he could switch back but I wouldn’t expect that.

So probably there is another UFA signing coming too once the Cap goes up and Johansen’s salary comes off the books.

Preds “act like” they favor Glass to get better. Conversely, they “act like” they don’t favor Novak ignoring that he generally performs well in camp, gets sent down anyway, loses his position as a result of injury, gets “sent down” to save a few thousand all while doing a good NHL job when allowed. It’s as though they didn’t expect him to be a player and don’t believe it when he is. Weird!

 

[herzausstein]

I would be surprised if any players - even decent ones - who have large Cap hits past this season would be movable. Guys like Ekholm, Granlund, Joey.... it's not about how good they are, it's just an extremely weird Cap situation coalescing for next season. If we took commensurate salary back, then we could probably trade them at "positive value", but then that sort of defeats the purpose. Or at least, we would have to take 1 season worth of Cap back to get past next year's blockage anyway; maybe teams would think they could get away with future years past that assuming the Cap would go up?

Anyway, I just don't see Poile living in this kind of mindspace. Same as the arguments against him doing retention or buyouts, I don't see him taking contract dumps back, and I don't see him wanting to dismantle his so-called "core" anyhow.

Not that we shouldn't talk about it ourselves, mind you. The further back we fall, the more we are going to talk about it anyway. As long as we keep the reality in the back of our minds at the same time.

Not many options really
#1) make a trade - difficult to pull off as you point out due to league wide cap issues
#2) buy someone out - difficult for ownership with what appears to be declining sales revenue watching the games and seeing many empty seats
#3) hope rfas sign for reasonable numbers and we can squeeze under the cap and hope next season turns out better with same cast and crew but young guys taking steps forward - i personally dont see cap working out and trading a guy like fabbro isnt likely to bring in a high impact return so i dont see much changing overall in terms of team trajectory
#4) same as #3 but new coaching staff - im open to this idea but doubt poile is

 

[101st_fan]

Preds “act like” they favor Glass to get better. Conversely, they “act like” they don’t favor Novak ignoring that he generally performs well in camp, gets sent down anyway, loses his position as a result of injury, gets “sent down” to save a few thousand all while doing a good NHL job when allowed. It’s as though they didn’t expect him to be a player and don’t believe it when he is. Weird!

It's almost like waiver exemptions create roster flexibility.

 

[Armourboy]

He was a depreciating asset and has major durability question marks. He doesn't change our current predicament if he's still here and we got two assets that may be more valuable to our future than he was likely be. If he stays healthy through the duration of the contract then it only really looks bad in that we probably should have gotten a little more for him.

I agree with nine. There's a lot of issues to take with our roster building, but I'm not really fussed by either of the Arvy or Ellis trades.

And lets not forget the story that he asked to be traded because he didn't like how Hynes was using him. Odds are if he stays here his playing time continues to drop and they keep trying to make him work in a spot on the PP that he has no business being in.

Hynes alone makes the Arvy trade a good one simple because of how he would use him. Ellis trade is good even if Glass completely dies on the vine. Getting rid of that contract when Poile did was even better than moving Subban when he did.

 

[herzausstein]

And lets not forget the story that he asked to be traded because he didn't like how Hynes was using him. Odds are if he stays here his playing time continues to drop and they keep trying to make him work in a spot on the PP that he has no business being in.

Hynes alone makes the Arvy trade a good one simple because of how he would use him. Ellis trade is good even if Glass completely dies on the vine. Getting rid of that contract when Poile did was even better than moving Subban when he did.

I forget about rv wanting traded out because he wasnt getting used properly in his mind. Judging by his play away from Nashville, he was probably right. So can we revisit hynes being head coach yet?

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Not many options really
#1) make a trade - difficult to pull off as you point out due to league wide cap issues
#2) buy someone out - difficult for ownership with what appears to be declining sales revenue watching the games and seeing many empty seats
#3) hope rfas sign for reasonable numbers and we can squeeze under the cap and hope next season turns out better with same cast and crew but young guys taking steps forward - i personally dont see cap working out and trading a guy like fabbro isnt likely to bring in a high impact return so i dont see much changing overall in terms of team trajectory
#4) same as #3 but new coaching staff - im open to this idea but doubt poile is

I guess one way to find out what trade value guys have is to post a thread on the main board. But in my experience it usually turns into “what about Jeannot?”

But aside from some of the usual noise there are fans of other teams who know their needs and Cap situations looking past this year better than we do. It’s not impossible there could be positive value trades out there… but I wouldn’t get my hopes up.

Door #4 continues to be my real hope. I’m just afraid it won’t be done in time to really learn enough about what our team is capable of under a new coach.

 

[herzausstein]

I

I guess one way to find out what trade value guys have is to post a thread on the main board. But in my experience it usually turns into “what about Jeannot?”

But aside from some of the usual noise there are fans of other teams who know their needs and Cap situations looking past this year better than we do. It’s not impossible there could be positive value trades out there… but I wouldn’t get my hopes up.

Door #4 continues to be my real hope. I’m just afraid it won’t be done in time to really learn enough about what our team is capable of under a new coach.

Yeah trading guys like jeannot, fabbro, trenin, carrier, etc can be done but what does it accomplish? Maybe 2M in cap if you replace carrier/fabbro/jeanot with gross/Afanasyev next season. It just doesnt gain us much capspace and the team is likely worse off. Coaching change is probably the absolute easiest path to take.

 

[Armourboy]

There is just something that tells me Poile is going to ride Hynes out. I don't know why but I just think if he was going to do it he already would have. He will probably have his excuses lined up.

 

[Scoresberg]

There is just something that tells me Poile is going to ride Hynes out. I don't know why but I just think if he was going to do it he already would have. He will probably have his excuses lined up.

Joey? Duchene?

Even though they’re at the top of the team’s points per 60, they’re clearly the problem!

 

[Viqsi]

I think Chicago people are still pissed that the Preds swept them and they have been awful since then! And they blame the Preds for that!

Compare and contrast with the other "team of destiny" one of my teams unexpectedly swept in the first round. Some franchises just don't know what it takes to sustain success, I guess.