Predators Hockey Discussion 22-23

[Bringer of Jollity]

Fiala was in the Preds organization for over four seasons. He came over in 2014-15 ... traded at the deadline in 2018-19. I have no idea where you get this "19 games and a handful of off-season months."

Yeah...the amount of time where he went from being a Pred to suddenly becoming a... ~.8 PPG player or so. I'm disputing the Preds not being able to take credit for his development on the basis of his time "developing" in Minnesota wasn't long enough to be able to make such a claim. Is your default just to argue with everyone regardless of whether they are on the same side of the discussion or not?

 

[GeauxPreds1]

Meanwhile in that same 10 year span the Preds are finding and growing forwards. Fiala who in his 4th season in the Preds organization grew into a 20+ goal scorer putting up a total that he's surpassed just one time since being traded away.

Fiala has literally got 20 goals in every season since being traded besides his 1st year. By using fiala one could argue that we hold potential star forwards back from reaching their full offensive potential with the “system” we force upon them by trying to make them “complete” players

 

[LCPreds]

Does anyone truly disagree with this take? It’s written by a Chicago guy so gotta keep that in mind. I don’t really have a take in regards to Chicago. We’ve seen crap teams get stuck in rebuild forever so no way to know whether they are in better shape to be more successful long term relative to the Preds. But I’m basically on board with the Preds side of this take. I just don’t see how they ever get out of mediocrity as the ceiling with the current core roster.

Lazerus: As bleak as things are for Blackhawks, it's actually worse in Nashville

From a team-building standpoint, it’s all but inarguable that the Blackhawks are better set up for future contention than the Predators.

theathletic.com

So surely he has to see that, despite half as many wins as Nashville and being 14 points further out of the playoff picture than the Predators are after they handed Chicago its eighth straight loss Wednesday night, 4-2, the Blackhawks are in a far more favorable position than the team that beat them. Neither team is anywhere near being a contender, or even a playoff-caliber squad. But Chicago GM Kyle Davidson has all but wiped the slate clean. Nashville GM David Poile has all but guaranteed years of mediocrity by locking in a mediocre core.

 

[Scoresberg]

Does anyone truly disagree with this take? It’s written by a Chicago guy so gotta keep that in mind. I don’t really have a take in regards to Chicago. We’ve seen crap teams get stuck in rebuild forever so no way to know whether they are in better shape to be more successful long term relative to the Preds. But I’m basically on board with the Preds side of this take. I just don’t see how they ever get out of mediocrity as the ceiling with the current core roster.

Lazerus: As bleak as things are for Blackhawks, it's actually worse in Nashville

From a team-building standpoint, it’s all but inarguable that the Blackhawks are better set up for future contention than the Predators.

theathletic.com

As of now, I don't disagree with that take.

That all can change if we could get a real coach to get this team back into contention. Our roster is not this bad.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Does anyone truly disagree with this take? It’s written by a Chicago guy so gotta keep that in mind. I don’t really have a take in regards to Chicago. We’ve seen crap teams get stuck in rebuild forever so no way to know whether they are in better shape to be more successful long term relative to the Preds. But I’m basically on board with the Preds side of this take. I just don’t see how they ever get out of mediocrity as the ceiling with the current core roster.

Lazerus: As bleak as things are for Blackhawks, it's actually worse in Nashville

From a team-building standpoint, it’s all but inarguable that the Blackhawks are better set up for future contention than the Predators.

theathletic.com

I can only see the un-paywalled parts, but it sounds like the normal "cellar team looking to draft high for many years will be better off than older team up against the salary cap with numerous veteran players" take that is the bedrock of HF boards. For all we know, and the best outcome for all of us naturally, Chicago becomes the next Buffalo, Edmonton, Columbus, Ottawa, Islanders, Coyotes and spends the next 10 years waiting for their "potential" to pan out.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Does anyone truly disagree with this take? It’s written by a Chicago guy so gotta keep that in mind. I don’t really have a take in regards to Chicago. We’ve seen crap teams get stuck in rebuild forever so no way to know whether they are in better shape to be more successful long term relative to the Preds. But I’m basically on board with the Preds side of this take. I just don’t see how they ever get out of mediocrity as the ceiling with the current core roster.

Lazerus: As bleak as things are for Blackhawks, it's actually worse in Nashville

From a team-building standpoint, it’s all but inarguable that the Blackhawks are better set up for future contention than the Predators.

theathletic.com

I don't agree with it. I would never want to live through a disgustingly bad year (2 years? 5 years? 10 years?) like the Hawks are clearly aiming to. Even if the payoff might be a True Contender roster in 5 years (10 years? Never?) Their roster is just embarrassingly bad. I could never be a fan of a team that so intentionally sunk that low.

Whereas the Preds were already a playoff team last year. And only (on paper/by intention) improved their team this year with the McDonagh/Nino/Lankinen additions, with every intention of being a playoff team again. The "or even a playoff-calibre squad" is just grossly wrong. It's a playoff-calibre squad. Albeit being dragged down atm by the terrible coaching. But nonetheless playoff-calibre.

Now as to the "mired in mediocrity" part... sure, we should atm be a "mediocre" team. That makes the playoff but indeed is not a True Contender. But I don't see any advantage to tanking for 2?5?10? years vs. just continuing to develop our prospects and sign free agents and use all the other tools at our disposal to build a better team. It relies on smart management and a little luck. Well, so does the tanking approach. But I'll take the door that doesn't involve the 2?5?10? years of being disgustingly bad on purpose.

And it's possible we're not an Original Six market that can just ride out 5?10? years of being abysmal also. We may need that mediocrity-at-minimum approach more than we need a Championship. Maybe that will change if the new owner comes in and wishes to bankroll things across such abysmal years as a tradeoff for the vanity of having his name on a trophy, I don't know. But in the meantime, the current ownership/management are taking a smarter approach to running a sustainable business model in their market. They aren't doing it for vanity and aren't looking to lose money along the way.

 

[LCPreds]

Yeah I guess it comes down to if one does believe the ceiling is mediocre, likely not a contender, then how long is that ok? And if it’s not ok then how does a new coach/gm turn everything around with this core? I guess the answer to that question really depends on how much you value the core, their longevity vs their contract, and the youth.

I’m pessimistic on all of these elements so have a more negative outlook: “Too good to be really bad. Too bad to be really good.”

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Yeah I guess it comes down to if one does believe the ceiling is mediocre, likely not a contender, then how long is that ok? And if it’s not ok then how does a new coach/gm turn everything around with this core? I guess the answer to that question really depends on how much you value the core, their longevity vs their contract, and the youth.

I’m pessimistic on all of these elements so have a more negative outlook: “Too good to be really bad. Too bad to be really good.”

The reality is we likely stay right around the middle and continue to do so for many, many years. I actually think we have the "talent" to be much more competitive and even, everything firing on the right cylinders, win the Cup (elite game-breaker or no). But I also don't think It's just a coaching issue. This group of vets, in particular, have shown incapable of maintaining a consistently high-level of play long enough, or during the right times, to get us to that point. There's obviously a host of other random factors that play in as well.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Fiala has literally got 20 goals in every season since being traded besides his 1st year. By using fiala one could argue that we hold potential star forwards back from reaching their full offensive potential with the “system” we force upon them by trying to make them “complete” players

This narrative is a bit misleading...maybe in the Trotz era one could argue this but not really in the Laviolette era, which is when Fiala got traded.
The biggest factor in the suppressed point totals for forwards on this team over the years has always been the fact that the offense was run through or came directly from the defense.
Fiala specifically had a huge problem with the fact that he was expected to cover for the point men that were low in the offensive zone or maybe even during a rush up ice. Laviolette's system was very focused on offense but not necessarily favoring the forwards. Unless there was a long bomb type pass the transitions were skated by the defensemen rather than being passed up to the forwards through the Nzone.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I would be “satisfied” With making the playoffs almost every year and maybe getting one run to the finals by random good fortune… well basically our last decade, in perpetuity.

But let’s face it, we inevitably have a new coach coming, a new owner will potentially bring a different philosophy, and our GM is 70. Things are going to change. For better or worse I have no idea.

 

[BigFatCat999]

What is "mediocity"? If constantly making the playoffs is mediocre then Columbus would do cartwheels for mediocre

 

[Olderfan]

Glass, Parssinen, and Novak all finding their grooves. Will be interesting how the summer shakes out if all three can be productive and stick with the team for the rest of the year.

What might really be interesting is how they play Friday night; Avalanche! After all those losses the Preds have won only 2. One was OT at home against a talented but disappointing team and on the road against a dying team who gave them all Preds could handle until the 3rd. I saw all the encouraging play of Duchene, Novak, Parssinen, Glass, Carrier, Fabbro and Saros. And with McDonough back, It is very encouraging. But Johansen and Forsberg need to show up every shift, every game; they still have this tendency to float and who can figure out Jeannot snd Trenin? This team has unresponsive talent thus far. Colorado is a different matter; can’t wait to see!

 

[LCPreds]

What is "mediocity"? If constantly making the playoffs is mediocre then Columbus would do cartwheels for mediocre

Half of the league makes the playoffs. To me mediocre is basically saying that you have a chance to make the playoffs. You won’t win the cup if you make it. You’ll have a middling pick that most likely won’t really be the reason you get over the hump if you miss the playoffs.

Basically the Preds as we have almost always known them.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Does anyone truly disagree with this take? It’s written by a Chicago guy so gotta keep that in mind. I don’t really have a take in regards to Chicago. We’ve seen crap teams get stuck in rebuild forever so no way to know whether they are in better shape to be more successful long term relative to the Preds. But I’m basically on board with the Preds side of this take. I just don’t see how they ever get out of mediocrity as the ceiling with the current core roster.

Lazerus: As bleak as things are for Blackhawks, it's actually worse in Nashville

From a team-building standpoint, it’s all but inarguable that the Blackhawks are better set up for future contention than the Predators.

theathletic.com

Seems like he's using what he acts is an inevitably bad fate for Nashville to justify a horrible current situation for the Chicago players and fans that, by his estimation, is a guaranteed path to being a cup contender in a few years.

Oddly enough, Kane, a player that has to suffer through this season basically tells him he's fully of shit in a polite way and shoots down everything he's saying.

Tanking sucks for everyone and guarantees nothing in the future.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

What might really be interesting is how they play Friday night; Avalanche! After all those losses the Preds have won only 2. One was OT at home against a talented but disappointing team and on the road against a dying team who gave them all Preds could handle until the 3rd. I saw all the encouraging play of Duchene, Novak, Parssinen, Glass, Carrier, Fabbro and Saros. And with McDonough back, It is very encouraging. But Johansen and Forsberg need to show up every shift, every game; they still have this tendency to float and who can figure out Jeannot snd Trenin? This team has unresponsive talent thus far. Colorado is a different matter; can’t wait to see!

This is very true, it's easy to look good against subpar talent. But, at least they did it.

I didn't feel like the Chicago game was even close though. Sure, there were the two flukey deflected goals but only for short periods did Chicago have any momentum, mostly during and just after a powerplay. Then in the third the Preds finished out the game like they are the superior team.

I didn't see much of either the Winnipeg or Colorado games but what I did see it didn't seem like they were massively out played. Am I wrong on that? I know the Preds twitter like online fans can't see the forest for the trees but those games seemed like a quality shift in the defensive play that can win games if the offense gets sorted.

 

[triggrman]

Tanking is a loser mentality to me. I prefer to win

 

[Predsanddead24]

Yeah Chicago has been bad for 5 years and have a mediocre prospect pool to show for it to this point. They've stockpiled draft picks these next couple seasons, but that doesn't mean success especially when you need virtually an entire team. The Blackhawks also had a bunch of first round picks in the last few seasons including 3rd overall and 8th overall and are still awful so draft picks don't guarantee success. I could see the argument for someone like the Ducks having a better situation long term than us, but Chicago really just seems like a disaster at this point.

As far as tanking goes, I do think you have higher odds of winning a Cup if you're bad for an extended period of time, but you're also equally if not more likely to be a consistent bottom dweller. I guess it's up to the individual person whether they're more of a championship or bust mentality or happy with consistently good teams that may have less championship potential. Personally, I'm happy if the team feels like they're playing up to their potential and we get to see younger players develop.

 

[Kat Predator]

Yeah Chicago has been bad for 5 years and have a mediocre prospect pool to show for it to this point. They've stockpiled draft picks these next couple seasons, but that doesn't mean success especially when you need virtually an entire team. The Blackhawks also had a bunch of first round picks in the last few seasons including 3rd overall and 8th overall and are still awful so draft picks don't guarantee success. I could see the argument for someone like the Ducks having a better situation long term than us, but Chicago really just seems like a disaster at this point.

As far as tanking goes, I do think you have higher odds of winning a Cup if you're bad for an extended period of time, but you're also equally if not more likely to be a consistent bottom dweller. I guess it's up to the individual person whether they're more of a championship or bust mentality or happy with consistently good teams that may have less championship potential. Personally, I'm happy if the team feels like they're playing up to their potential and we get to see younger players develop.

Well said. Hockey is the ultimate team sport. Getting a generational talent in, say, the top 5 doesn't guarantee your team is going to win Cups for 10 years straight. Nor is there a guarantee you get that generational talent. Or that he stays healthy. Or he develops as expected. Or he meshes with the rest of the team. Or that your goalie isn't a garbage pile reclamation project and sieve named after soup.

 

[herzausstein]

Top 5 pick doesnt promise success but most cup teams have a couple top 5 picks on their team

Colorado - McKinnon, Makar
Tampa - Stamkos, Hedman
Stl - J Bouw, Pietrangelo
Penguins - crosby, malkin

Granted we got a few right now....
Duchene, joey, nino.... glass was 6th overall.

 

[BigFatCat999]

If I was to bet, Sissons is out the door. His contract is JUST enough to give RFA's raises.

 

[Viqsi]

Yeah Chicago has been bad for 5 years and have a mediocre prospect pool to show for it to this point. They've stockpiled draft picks these next couple seasons, but that doesn't mean success especially when you need virtually an entire team. The Blackhawks also had a bunch of first round picks in the last few seasons including 3rd overall and 8th overall and are still awful so draft picks don't guarantee success. I could see the argument for someone like the Ducks having a better situation long term than us, but Chicago really just seems like a disaster at this point.

As far as tanking goes, I do think you have higher odds of winning a Cup if you're bad for an extended period of time, but you're also equally if not more likely to be a consistent bottom dweller. I guess it's up to the individual person whether they're more of a championship or bust mentality or happy with consistently good teams that may have less championship potential. Personally, I'm happy if the team feels like they're playing up to their potential and we get to see younger players develop.

Well said. Hockey is the ultimate team sport. Getting a generational talent in, say, the top 5 doesn't guarantee your team is going to win Cups for 10 years straight. Nor is there a guarantee you get that generational talent. Or that he stays healthy. Or he develops as expected. Or he meshes with the rest of the team. Or that your goalie isn't a garbage pile reclamation project and sieve named after soup.

This is part of why I love this place. People just know and understand these things rather than trying to push the idea of "if we suck hard enough, maybe luck will happen" over and over and over and over and

 

[BigFatCat999]

Keep your ears open, I expect games to be cancelled due to extreme cold.

Van @ Edmonton?
Mon @ Dallas
Col @ Nashville
PHI @ Carolina

 

[LCPreds]

Tanking is a loser mentality to me. I prefer to win

And to be fair I’m not advocating tanking. I do think the author of that article was trying to advocate it on behalf of Chicago. On the other hand, I guess we need a clear definition of ‘winning’ when it comes to the current and future expectations of the Preds. Is simply making the playoffs winning? Something a little better than that? Cup run(s)?

I don’t think I’m asking for a lot here but all I want is a fun product to watch on the ice. I don’t feel that exists currently. Unfortunately we just locked ourselves into 3 more years so hopefully this gets better and doesn’t represent the ceiling or get worse (unless it’s a quick dip/recovery).

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

And to be fair I’m not advocating tanking. I do think the author of that article was trying to advocate it on behalf of Chicago. On the other hand, I guess we need a clear definition of ‘winning’ when it comes to the current and future expectations of the Preds. Is simply making the playoffs winning? Something a little better than that? Cup run(s)?

I don’t think I’m asking for a lot here but all I want is a fun product to watch on the ice. I don’t feel that exists currently. Unfortunately we just locked ourselves into 3 more years so hopefully this gets better and doesn’t represent the ceiling or get worse (unless it’s a quick dip/recovery).

I tend to think back on the first 4 months of last season as an example of fun. Obviously you could go back a few times over recent seasons to something similar, in effect if not style. But even just last season with mostly the same team we had a fun team to watch.

They had some youthful zest and that new tough “identity”… and were winning. Maybe not so much that other cities were starting to list us as Contenders. But enough that the playoffs could almost be tAken for granted and we could secretly harbor some hopes of making some upsets. And teams knew they were in for a battle coming here.

Then it kind of all slid back to the country club and Hynes lost his grip on things and today things aren’t fun. But it’s not really any significant difference in player personnel. We know we can have a fun team with these guys. So I just want that back.

 

[101st_fan]

Yeah...the amount of time where he went from being a Pred to suddenly becoming a... ~.8 PPG player or so. I'm disputing the Preds not being able to take credit for his development on the basis of his time "developing" in Minnesota wasn't long enough to be able to make such a claim. Is your default just to argue with everyone regardless of whether they are on the same side of the discussion or not?

I was unclear what you were detailing, hence the post that stated I didn't know what you were referencing.

Fiala grew to a 23 goal scorer as a Pred .... had a 30+ goal season with the Wild ... yet when he drops down as a King the people here ranting how the Preds don't develop forwards won't then blame LA for ruining him.