Potential Atlanta NHL Expansion Team Thread

[nhlfan79]

Don't forget that we also thought the Thrashers were safe because Philips's naming-rights deal was dependent on the arena having two tenants. Well, once word got out that that deal had been quietly renegotiated, that was when Spirit's end game became obvious.

 

[KevFu]

Maybe.

I don't know the specifics of the proposed Forsyth bonds but we've already seen sports leagues waive relocation fees to put franchises in better cities. For example, the MLB just waived a $300 million relocation fee to get the A's into Vegas.

Well, that's totally different (ignoring the Vegas vs having two Bay Area teams isn't really "better city")... Getting the A's stadium resolved anywhere allows them to go ahead with expansion; and the expansion fees will be massive. So it's in their interest to clear as many hurdles for the A's as possible.

But the second reason its totally different is that Oakland moving to Las Vegas does not require any re-drawing of the TV territories that already exist. That's a big part of the reason expansion and relocation fees in the first place: you're paying to carve out a TV territory from existing ones.

Oakland moving to Vegas requires no adjustment. The A's and Giants share northern California and northern Nevada now; and also shared southern Nevada with the Giants, Dodgers, Angels, Padres and D-Backs now. In Las Vegas, their territory would be exactly the same.

 

[dj4aces]

For example, the MLB just waived a $300 million relocation fee to get the A's into Vegas. Considering what the rumored relocation fee is now in the NHL, convincing the Board of Governors to reduce or outright waive the relocation fee to offset the debt on bonds is certainly possible if things get bad enough and a willing buyer exists somewhere else.

This falls into two quick points, I think:

a. I'm not a sports business scholar, nor did I spend the night in a Holiday Inn Express in Oakland, CA, but I'm willing to bet the relocation fee is waived because the league doesn't think the owner can actually do it. I mentioned the A's in another thread (I don't recall which one, maybe the SLC thread?) recently, and learned that not all things are rosy with the plan to move them to Vegas.

b. The NHL, especially its owners, really love their fees. I sincerely doubt they'd ever waive a relocation fee. Being that it would be Atlanta's third team, if something were to happen, the team falls into the wrong hands, and relocation was back on the menu, I'm willing to bet one option in the league's back pocket would be to ramp up those fees to make relocation as unattractive as possible.

 

[Yukon Joe]

b. The NHL, especially its owners, really love their fees. I sincerely doubt they'd ever waive a relocation fee. Being that it would be Atlanta's third team, if something were to happen, the team falls into the wrong hands, and relocation was back on the menu, I'm willing to bet one option in the league's back pocket would be to ramp up those fees to make relocation as unattractive as possible.

So Atlanta to Winnipeg was the only relocation fee I believe the NHL has ever imposed.

The reason it was imposed, I believe, is they didn't want to give ASG a big windfall simply because they gave up on the team. The team was worth more in Winnipeg than it was in Atlanta, and the league wanted that extra money - not to leave it to ASG.

So if Meruelo has to sell the team to new owners to move it to SLC - I think they'd charge a relocation fee.

In a situation though like the A's to Las Vegas, where it's the same owner- I can understand why no relocation fee would be charged.

 

[dj4aces]

In a situation though like the A's to Las Vegas, where it's the same owner- I can understand why no relocation fee would be charged.

Entirely possible! I know next to nothing about the business side of the MLB, but this sounds logical to me.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Not a fan of Steak Shapiro, but this is a good take:

https://www.audacy.com/929thegame/s...pport-hockey-critics-should-do-their-homework

 

[dj4aces]

Not a fan of Steak Shapiro, but this is a good take:

https://www.audacy.com/929thegame/s...pport-hockey-critics-should-do-their-homework

I saw it last night... and while they're right in the sense that the city absolutely could support a team, I also feel like they're barely scratching the surface. I'd be interested if they did a segment where they interviewed some folks who'd provide some history.

It's easier to tell folks to "do your homework", but we all know the naysayers are incapable of that, as they'd much rather make stuff up or repeat the things they convinced themselves are true. But if you get someone like Dom, Russo (co-wrote the article about Atlanta in The Athletic last year) or Friedman to come on the show to talk about that history, it goes a long way towards illustrating for folks exactly what happened here.

Just my $0.03,

 

[sneakytitz]

Not a fan of Steak Shapiro, but this is a good take:

https://www.audacy.com/929thegame/s...pport-hockey-critics-should-do-their-homework

I think the criticism of the people that don't want a team in Atlanta is willful ignorance. Other fans in other (Canadian) cities want a franchise in their city, facts be damned. It's easy just to say HURR DURR THEYVE FAILED TWICE than to address the facts.

In other news, these recent Arizona developments certainly bode well for an Atlanta expansion.

 

[dj4aces]

In other news, these recent Arizona developments certainly bode well for an Atlanta expansion.

I mean... yeah, in a manner of speaking. The situation there is still very fluid, but we're coming to a head, to be sure. I truly, genuinely hope they don't have to relocate, but regardless if they do or not, expansion is absolutely coming.

 

[sneakytitz]

I mean... yeah, in a manner of speaking. The situation there is still very fluid, but we're coming to a head, to be sure. I truly, genuinely hope they don't have to relocate, but regardless if they do or not, expansion is absolutely coming.

At this point, if the Coyotes stay put, SLC and Atlanta have to be the obvious candidates. If they relocate the Coyotes to SLC, Atlanta is the lightyears ahead, top candidate for expansion. Everything is in place. They're moving earth on the south Forsyth site as I type this.

 

[dj4aces]

At this point, if the Coyotes stay put, SLC and Atlanta have to be the obvious candidates. If they relocate the Coyotes to SLC, Atlanta is the lightyears ahead, top candidate for expansion. Everything is in place. They're moving earth on the south Forsyth site as I type this.

Are they really? I know they've been doing work on 400 for the infrastructure improvements, but haven't heard (and can't really get over there to see) anything about them physically putting shovels in the ground yet. I'd think that kinda thing would've been bigger news.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

At this point, if the Coyotes stay put, SLC and Atlanta have to be the obvious candidates. If they relocate the Coyotes to SLC, Atlanta is the lightyears ahead, top candidate for expansion. Everything is in place. They're moving earth on the south Forsyth site as I type this.

I mean. they said the arena is contingent on getting an NHL team to anchor it. It may be even further along than many of us realize.

 

[KevFu]

I think the criticism of the people that don't want a team in Atlanta is willful ignorance. Other fans in other (Canadian) cities want a franchise in their city, facts be damned. It's easy just to say HURR DURR THEYVE FAILED TWICE than to address the facts.

In other news, these recent Arizona developments certainly bode well for an Atlanta expansion.

I think the hurt feelings of Quebec City, Winnipeg and Hamilton fans are totally understandable. I just think they're displacing their frustration onto southern cities, when Hamilton's ire should be directed at Toronto and the others at those who didn't get arena deals done at the right time.

The more the NHL expands, the closer to the top of an expansion list Quebec gets, and the largest non-adjacent markets without NHL teams are in the West, which means Quebec can facilitate getting two of Salt Lake, Houston, San Diego or Phoenix 2.0, plus Atlanta into the league.

If the NHL wants 4x9 with three of them, is the NHL going to go to Orlando, Charlotte, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Baltimore or Hartford for the 18th East team with Tampa, Carolina, Columbus, Buffalo, Washington and Boston/NYC3 right next door? Probably not.

If I'm a Quebec fan, I'm rooting HARD Atlanta and two Western cities to build arenas.

 

[dj4aces]

I mean. they said the arena is contingent on getting an NHL team to anchor it. It may be even further along than many of us realize.

It might be, assuming that it's actually arena stuff being worked on, and not 400 infrastructure stuff. If it legit is arena stuff though, then either you're right, or Krause+investors have chosen to build without a team for the time being with the hopes of landing one soon, as per the podcast/interview I linked a couple pages back.

Either way, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

It might be, assuming that it's actually arena stuff being worked on, and not 400 infrastructure stuff. If it legit is arena stuff though, then either you're right, or Krause+investors have chosen to build without a team for the time being with the hopes of landing one soon, as per the podcast/interview I linked a couple pages back.

Either way, I'm not holding my breath.

That article said the Forsyth has already committed $370 mil of public funds but they have to have a team first. I’d think it would be way too big of a gamble to move forward without league approval

 

[sneakytitz]

Are they really? I know they've been doing work on 400 for the infrastructure improvements, but haven't heard (and can't really get over there to see) anything about them physically putting shovels in the ground yet. I'd think that kinda thing would've been bigger news.

You can see it along 400 but yeah, they've been grading the land, working on drainage/piping, etc. There's been a construction trailer on site since right around the time it was brought to the Board.

 

[dj4aces]

You can see it along 400 but yeah, they've been grading the land, working on drainage/piping, etc. There's been a construction trailer on site since right around the time it was brought to the Board.

If they're actually doing work on the land (because, again, can't get there to look for myself), I think that's what matters. Even if it's just grading, it's an important first step before any real development takes place anyway.

 

[sneakytitz]

If they're actually doing work on the land (because, again, can't get there to look for myself), I think that's what matters. Even if it's just grading, it's an important first step before any real development takes place anyway.

Agreed. They've still got loads to do before they start building up but might as well do what you can while you can. Certainly a good bit of money to be spending on mere hopes, to me its like KSE knows it's happening.

 

[nhlfan79]

I think too much is being made of Bettman's comments from last weekend. With my lawyer's ear, all I heard him to say is that there's nothing to report at this moment. The league is not actively looking to expand right now, which is best understood to mean essentially literally. In other words, we have no news to share with you at this very moment in time. The fact that they're not ready to announce something right now doesn't mean nothing is happening behind the scenes, that assurances weren't given, or that the Atlanta effort is chasing a pipe dream that will never actually happen.

It may be two days, two weeks, two months, or two years, who knows? When there's actually something to say, they'll say it. It'd have been an entirely different matter if he'd said something along the lines of "expansion isn't even on our radar right now. We're focused on building upon the success and momentum of our two newest teams and also looking forward to showcasing our players once again on the biggest international stage at the next two Winter Olympics." The fact that he even openly mentions Atlanta at all, given the sordid history of the Thrashers' exit, is noteworthy in and of itself.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

If they're actually doing work on the land (because, again, can't get there to look for myself), I think that's what matters. Even if it's just grading, it's an important first step before any real development takes place anyway.

And this is why I'd think, IF (a huge IF) relocation was on the table, that Atlanta should be preferred over SLC. If a brand-new arena/development is a huge bonus to Bettman, then Atlanta is lightyears ahead of Utah.

 

[dj4aces]

I think too much is being made of Bettman's comments from last weekend. With my lawyer's ear, all I heard him to say is that there's nothing to report at this moment. The league is not actively looking to expand right now, which is best understood to mean essentially literally. In other words, we have no news to share with you at this very moment in time. The fact that they're not ready to announce something right now doesn't mean nothing is happening behind the scenes, that assurances weren't given, or that the Atlanta effort is chasing a pipe dream that will never actually happen.

It may be two days, two weeks, two months, or two years, who knows? When there's actually something to say, they'll say it. It'd have been an entirely different matter if he'd said something along the lines of "expansion isn't even on our radar right now. We're focused on building upon the success and momentum of our two newest teams and also looking forward to showcasing our players once again on the biggest international stage at the next two Winter Olympics." The fact that he even openly mentions Atlanta at all, given the sordid history of the Thrashers' exit, is noteworthy in and of itself.

That presser definitely had a lot of LawyerSpeak™ and extremely carefully chosen words though, which does lead a lot of folks to speculate. It's also difficult to not feel the slightest bit of excitement at the prospect of having the NHL back in Atlanta once more, which also leads to speculation and, in some ways, unbridled hope and excitement.

At the end of the day... while Atlanta is part of the discussion once more, and someone who at least seems to have resources or investors might maybe possibly be doing something with the land they bought, I'm not getting excited until I see Bettman doing a press conference announcing an expansion team to Atlanta, and not a moment sooner.

 

[GreenHornet]

I think too much is being made of Bettman's comments from last weekend. With my lawyer's ear, all I heard him to say is that there's nothing to report at this moment. The league is not actively looking to expand right now, which is best understood to mean essentially literally. In other words, we have no news to share with you at this very moment in time. The fact that they're not ready to announce something right now doesn't mean nothing is happening behind the scenes, that assurances weren't given, or that the Atlanta effort is chasing a pipe dream that will never actually happen.

It may be two days, two weeks, two months, or two years, who knows? When there's actually something to say, they'll say it. It'd have been an entirely different matter if he'd said something along the lines of "expansion isn't even on our radar right now. We're focused on building upon the success and momentum of our two newest teams and also looking forward to showcasing our players once again on the biggest international stage at the next two Winter Olympics." The fact that he even openly mentions Atlanta at all, given the sordid history of the Thrashers' exit, is noteworthy in and of itself.

Yep, the NHL (and really, any sports league) likes to make announcements on its own terms and its own timeline.

I guarantee you nothing with regard to expansion is going to be announced until there's something at least close to a definitive disposition (one way or the other) with regard to the Arizona situation. Things seem to be moving in that direction, so let's keep an eye out for either the end of the regular season or (more likely, IMHO) this summer and see what happens (if anything).

 

[dj4aces]

And this is why I'd think, IF (a huge IF) relocation was on the table, that Atlanta should be preferred over SLC. If a brand-new arena/development is a huge bonus to Bettman, then Atlanta is lightyears ahead of Utah.

Agreed. While SLC would be preferable to the league to maintain the alignment, the development here is past the planning stage, the land is already acquired, and a tentative agreement on supplemental funding from the local government has been made. If I recall, the Smith team in Salt Lake has only briefed the city of Draper on his plans for an arena, and doesn't yet own land for the development.

In both cases though, temporary arrangements exist. Smith has the advantage here, because he owns the building they'd play in temporarily.

 

[KevFu]

I think too much is being made of Bettman's comments from last weekend. With my lawyer's ear, all I heard him to say is that there's nothing to report at this moment. The league is not actively looking to expand right now, which is best understood to mean essentially literally. In other words, we have no news to share with you at this very moment in time.

I have the same kinda inkling towards the Coyotes/Salt Lake situation. Everything I've read about it sources one of TWO GUYS (who very well might be one guy sourcing the other!)

I think it's entirely plausible that people are connecting dots that aren't there.
- Walsh's comments: he was asked! At the ASG. He didn't "Announce" anything, he said the NHLPA's views, which are "duh."

- Smith's statements: Came the week after the Miller family made the exact same statement about MLB expansion.. and met with A's leaders about being a temp home for the As. (They put up billboards saying "Utah wants the A's!").

Salt Lake is putting together their Olympic bid, and trying to spend no "temp money." Everything needs a legit longterm purpose AND can serve as something during the Olympics. If they put taxpayer money into an MLB stadium, it's going to be used for the medal plaza and/or for Big Air (which didn't exist in 2002). The NBA arena definitely is going to be used for the Olympics. If they build a NEW ONE, they'll use BOTH. But with the ECHL arena and the arena in Provo... both an new NBA/NHL Arena and an new MLB stadium are less essential to an Olympic bid than necessary.

Salt Lake almost certainly will take care of the Jazz with a new arena by 2033. But building an MLB stadium FIRST could reduce the scope and funding of a new NBA/NHL arena and make them wait five extra years.

So is Miller making noise because he has Bettman's approval to talk since he's about to get the Coyotes? Or is he just jockeying for position in Utah for taxpayer funding, and echoing what Miller is saying to baseball?

Agreed. While SLC would be preferable to the league to maintain the alignment, the development here is past the planning stage, the land is already acquired, and a tentative agreement on supplemental funding from the local government has been made. If I recall, the Smith team in Salt Lake has only briefed the city of Draper on his plans for an arena, and doesn't yet own land for the development.

In both cases though, temporary arrangements exist. Smith has the advantage here, because he owns the building they'd play in temporarily.

Atlanta would definitely be further ahead on a brand new "legit NHL arena" with 18,000 seats designed for hockey.

But the Delta Center WAS BUILT for hockey games -- just 14,000 crowds for the Olympics instead of 18,000 for the NHL. It IS a "Legit NBA Arena" and the only reason it isn't a "Legit NHL Arena" is 4000 lower end zone seats.

Which basically makes it ridiculously closer to Winnipeg's arena than something like Mullett Arena or even Barclay's Center (which was NOT built for hockey).

So the issue of a new arena deal in Salt Lake is not really time sensitive or looming large. If the NHL believes in the success of the Salt Lake market, the NHL is going to think playing in the Delta Center until the closing ceremony of the 2034 Olympics would be totally worth it to either (a) solve the Coyotes situation or (b) get Atlanta into the league.


And no one has any doubt that the Jazz are going to get a new arena. It's a question of when, not if. Their owner (Ryan Smith) lives in Utah, went to BYU, is an LDS member and also owns the MLS team.

You also have the Miller family trying to bring MLB to Salt Lake. The Millers are minority owners in the Jazz. Smith was a minority owner of the Jazz, until he bought the majority... from the Millers. And it came about because Smith asked the Millers to partner on buying the MLS team, or bringing them into a joint organization to run both. The Millers passed, but realized they finally had someone who they could sell to who'd be guaranteed to keep the team in Utah after years of turning down shark bids. Smith also owns a minority stake in the minor league baseball team, with the Millers owning the majority.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Atlanta would definitely be further ahead on a brand new "legit NHL arena" with 18,000 seats designed for hockey.

But the Delta Center WAS BUILT for hockey games -- just 14,000 crowds for the Olympics instead of 18,000 for the NHL. It IS a "Legit NBA Arena" and the only reason it isn't a "Legit NHL Arena" is 4000 lower end zone seats.

Which basically makes it ridiculously closer to Winnipeg's arena than something like Mullett Arena or even Barclay's Center (which was NOT built for hockey).

So the issue of a new arena deal in Salt Lake is not really time sensitive or looming large. If the NHL believes in the success of the Salt Lake market, the NHL is going to think playing in the Delta Center until the closing ceremony of the 2034 Olympics would be totally worth it to either (a) solve the Coyotes situation or (b) get Atlanta into the league.

In terms of Atlanta vs. Utah, not sure what's more important to the league. On one hand, SLC is the better temporary fix as they have a better temporary arena to play in. Atlanta could try to work it out where they play in Gas South Arena, though it has lots of moving parts as the potential ownership doesn't own that arena. Plus, it would seat about 3,000 less for games.

However, on the other hand, if SLC's allure is that they're getting the Olympics and is looking to start building a new, full NHL seating, arena several years down the road, Atlanta is lightyears ahead. Dirt's already moving.

In the end, at least reading the media, it appears SLC would be first in line IF relocation was on the table. I'm just not sure if Atlanta can't swoop in with a better bid.