Potential Atlanta NHL Expansion Team Thread

[BKIslandersFan]

You kind of have to look at the post I was quoting when I made that comment to see that I wasn't just talking about governments and tax payer spending. For sure it includes them but it's also the fans and the sponsors and in this case, the owners of the team who are being grifted here. It's a project that will eventually fail for a number of different reasons which I've written about before. I have little doubt that the project will move forward and get built, and I also have little doubt that they won't get an NHL team. But as I said above, the team will not be successful long term, and will be another stain on the NHL.

Also, how many teams have gotten their team back after losing it twice?

Washington got MLB team back after losing them twice. And I think Cleveland lost NFL team twice, albeit first one was close to 100 years ago.

It happened before. Past failure does not equal future failure.

 

[GreenHornet]

Washington got MLB team back after losing them twice. And I think Cleveland lost NFL team twice, albeit first one was close to 100 years ago.

It happened before. Past failure does not equal future failure.

Correct. Cleveland was the original home of the Rams from 1937-46 (with the exception of the 1943 season due to World War II), and then lost the first version of the Browns in the 1990s.

And as you point out, the first Washington Senators went to Minnesota to become the Twins in 1961 and the second Senators franchise went to Texas to become the Rangers in 1972 before the Montreal Expos moved to D.C. to become the Washington Nationals in 2005.

Leave us also not forget that Los Angeles lost both the Rams and Raiders in 1995 before getting the Rams back in 2015, and later getting the Chargers a few years ago.

And I believe someone in a thread on this board also mentioned that Denver lost the WHA Spurs (who moved to Ottawa in the middle of the 1975-76 season, and then folded after just two games there), before gaining the original Colorado Rockies when the Kansas City Scouts moved the next season, and then losing them to New Jersey in the early '80s.

 

[ponder719]

Correct. Cleveland was the original home of the Rams from 1937-46 (with the exception of the 1943 season due to World War II), and then lost the first version of the Browns in the 1990s.

And as you point out, the first Washington Senators went to Minnesota to become the Twins in 1961 and the second Senators franchise went to Texas to become the Rangers in 1972 before the Montreal Expos moved to D.C. to become the Washington Nationals in 2005.

Leave us also not forget that Los Angeles lost both the Rams and Raiders in 1995 before getting the Rams back in 2015, and later getting the Chargers a few years ago.

And I believe someone in a thread on this board also mentioned that Denver lost the WHA Spurs (who moved to Ottawa in the middle of the 1975-76 season, and then folded after just two games there), before gaining the original Colorado Rockies when the Kansas City Scouts moved the next season, and then losing them to New Jersey in the early '80s.

Milwaukee lost the original Brewers in 1902 and the Braves in 1966, before getting the Brewers from Seattle.

To add to LA, they also lost the AFL Chargers to San Diego in 1961.

 

[aqib]

Because someone saw how badly the first two were run and wants to make a go of it???

The Flames weren't poorly run they made the playoffs 6 out of 8 years and were 500 or better most of the time there.

As far as making a go of it, it was one thing when the Time Warner paid $85 million for the Thrashers who were going to play in an arena that they were already building for the Hawks vs this proposal where they will spend $1 billion on an arena and $700 million for an expansion team.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

As far as making a go of it, it was one thing when the Time Warner paid $85 million for the Thrashers who were going to play in an arena that they were already building for the Hawks vs this proposal where they will spend $1 billion on an arena and $700 million for an expansion team.

Owners won't be coming out of pocket much for the arena. If the NHL commits to an expansion in Atlanta, it'll fall on taxpayers just like everything else. Plus, billionaires don't care about the team costs. Look at what the owners in recent sales across sports are buying teams for. It's insane.

 

[Bostonzamboni]

Because since the team moved just over a decade ago, Atlanta MSA has added 1.5 million in population and has added a lot of corporate money (Mercedes, Google, Microsoft, NorfolkA Southern, State Farm, etc...)

And added a highly popular MLS team just a few years ago, which may not have been as popular or even feasible when the Thrashers were there and the metro area was smaller.

And I think in just the past three years, the Atlanta tv market size rapidly jumped from 10 or so to 7? That suddenly surpassed Boston!

And the Atlanta Hawks and Braves, probably due to recent success and the new Braves ballpark (and yes, maybe the larger metro population?) now sell out almost every game! Along with MLS and I assume NFL.

It's quietly become one of the best sports cities in America...but nobody seems to acknowledge it...plus rabid college sports interest unlike here in Boston which is pro only despite all our colleges and UMass 90 miles away.

Yet it seems most or all Boston sports radio talk hosts seem to constantly diss Atlanta as the worst or one of the worst sports cities in America! Because Boston is the best! At least according to Bostonians Tampa gets dissed, too. And they further diss those cities and their ilk and their supposedly mostly uneducated and stoopid populace vs. smart and educated Boston, the "best city in the world" -- according to some or many locals.

Sure. a large percentage of inner-city Atlanta is people of color who obviously won't care about hockey, but from what I read, some of the suburbs there have lots of northern transplants who might care.

Oh, and Atlanta did sell out their only two home playoff games against the Rangers. Not all NHL teams have sold out early-round playoff games the past 20 years or so; heck, I think Philadelphia couldn't sell out against Pittsburgh (!) just a few years ago....either struggled to sell out or fell a bit short both games. And...Boston couldn't sell out a first round against Capitals in the 90s...and some games in the 80s, I think even a game 7 or two. Sold out against Montreal in 2009 only because supposedly so many Habs fans bought tix.

And yes, Atlanta drew fairly well until the last few years there. Not sure if due to possibly many freebies or heavily discounted tix, but no, never averaged only 10,000, as many might think, and never drew fewer than 8,000 or so on some weeknights in their last few seasons. No worse than the Caps, Pens, Blues, Preds, Panthers, Canes, Coyotes, Ducks, CBJ, Sharks, Ducks, Sens, many other Canadian teams at times, Kings at times, Islanders, Devils and Sabres at times. Dallas had a bad team and bad ownership last decade and drew poorly for a stretch.. Now with good ownership and success....it seems like a solid hockey market once again.

Atlanta can't be the same? I would like to see them get a chance with good ownership and favorable expansion draft rules.

 

[TheLegend]

The Flames weren't poorly run they made the playoffs 6 out of 8 years and were 500 or better most of the time there.

As far as making a go of it, it was one thing when the Time Warner paid $85 million for the Thrashers who were going to play in an arena that they were already building for the Hawks vs this proposal where they will spend $1 billion on an arena and $700 million for an expansion team.

The Coyotes had playoff runs their first few seasons in Phoenix.

W-L records don’t always translate into how a franchise is run.

 

[RoyalAir]

The Flames weren't poorly run they made the playoffs 6 out of 8 years and were 500 or better most of the time there.

As far as making a go of it, it was one thing when the Time Warner paid $85 million for the Thrashers who were going to play in an arena that they were already building for the Hawks vs this proposal where they will spend $1 billion on an arena and $700 million for an expansion team.

Philips was built for the Thrashers, not the Hawks.

The building was cleanly, and clearly, designed with hockey in mind. When ASG bought both, they essentially "flipped the script" and made everything about the Hawks, while completely neglecting the fact that the Thrash even played there.

Your point about costs of buildings/teams is well-founded, however.

It's quietly become one of the best sports cities in America...but nobody seems to acknowledge it...plus rabid college sports interest unlike here in Boston which is pro only despite all our colleges and UMass 90 miles away.

This is an interesting point from an outside observer.

Braves have always had fans, as a mixture of it being the only game in town in the summertime, regional dominance, invested ownership, and success on-field. Now, with SunTrust, it's the best atmosphere for a baseball game I've ever seen. It's a party that happens to have a ball game in the middle of it.

The Hawks finally have a committed ownership group, and they've marketed well (even though they're the very definition of mediocre). The Falcons and UTD have excellent ownership.

This is *in spite of* the rabid fervor that is college sports here. I don't expect out-of-region fanbases to understand it, but Atlanta is really the capital of college football.

This has been discussed before, but one of the major failures of the Thrashers (and there were many), is that the marketing department did not try to weave it into the Atlanta/Georgia sports fabric. For a long, long time, they were content to get Bruins and Rangers fans in the building. Vegas has shown an excellent blueprint on how to make a team a part of the region, and really embrace being Vegas' team. If ATL gets another kick at the can, I really hope they learn those lessons, and become a part of the community. I have extensive notes on how to do this

 

[MMC]

 

[GreenHornet]

Not really much new in this article, but it IS interesting that folks as high up the food chain as Bill Daly continue to talk favorably about the Atlanta market.

 

[Gnashville]

Given the new Expansion rules I offer the Predators to Atlanta with a new Nashville expansion team!!!

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Not really much new in this article, but it IS interesting that folks as high up the food chain as Bill Daly continue to talk favorably about the Atlanta market.

Agreed. In the end though, I won't get excited until a potential owner emerges.

 

[GreenHornet]

Agreed. In the end though, I won't get excited until a potential owner emerges.

I have to think Daly wouldn't have given the answer he did if he didn't already have a pretty good idea who the ownership group consists of. OTOH, he and Bettman and the BOG apparently thought the Atlanta $pirit Septocluster™ was just fine. So, ...

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

I have to think Daly wouldn't have given the answer he did if he didn't already have a pretty good idea who the ownership group consists of. OTOH, he and Bettman and the BOG apparently thought the Atlanta $pirit Septocluster™ was just fine. So, ...

Maybe...I think I'm just skeptical after the rumors of random groups of retired sports stars (Carter or Glavine) or Kincade's Balkin or even this guy behind the Gathering which is just some car dealership owner with no development experience.

And I totally agree about the BOG voting in ASG. That's one of my biggest questions behind the Thrashers. Why on earth were they voted in after they publicly were against owning the team. Like, they literally said that they didn't want the team.

 

[Bostonzamboni]

But...I've read that this proposed arena/entertainment complex in the desirable northern suburbs does not have direct rail/MAARTA access, that once taking MAARTA near the proposed arena, that fans would need to take some type of bus or shuttle to the venue? What a pain!

Does the Braves' new and successful suburban complex have direct MAARTA rail access...or a combo of MAARTA rail then maybe a shuttle bus?

Oh, does MAARTA just refer to the rail system, or all the buses also?

 

[nhlfan79]

And I totally agree about the BOG voting in ASG. That's one of my biggest questions behind the Thrashers. Why on earth were they voted in after they publicly were against owning the team. Like, they literally said that they didn't want the team.

I've always assumed that they had no realistic choice, once the NBA had approved the same group as owners of the Hawks. That would have been a complete poop show if the NHL had then disapproved them as owners, pitting the NBA vs. the NHL and throwing the entire sale into a lurch, especially with the AOL-Time Warner collapse happening at the same time.

 

[nhlfan79]

But...I've read that this proposed arena/entertainment complex in the desirable northern suburbs does not have direct rail/MAARTA access, that once taking MAARTA near the proposed arena, that fans would need to take some type of bus or shuttle to the venue? What a pain!

Does the Braves' new and successful suburban complex have direct MAARTA rail access...or a combo of MAARTA rail then maybe a shuttle bus?

Oh, does MAARTA just refer to the rail system, or all the buses also?

No, MARTA rail goes nowhere near The Battery. I circled on the map where the Braves play. The proposed site of the Gathering is far north of the top edge of the map. It's at least ten miles further up from the current end point of the north "Red" rail line. It would take a decade or more, billions of dollars, and a huge amount of political capital to get MARTA extended that far north. The people that live up there actively *don't* want MARTA, for fear it will only bring crime and undesirable people to their neck of the woods. Read into that what you like (and you wouldn't be wrong).

 

[hockey20000]

no just no atlanta has had 2 chances now give a team to someone else.

 

[BMN]

No, MARTA rail goes nowhere near The Battery. I circled on the map where the Braves play. The proposed site of the Gathering is far north of the top edge of the map. It's at least ten miles further up from the current end point of the north "Red" rail line. It would take a decade or more, billions of dollars, and a huge amount of political capital to get MARTA extended that far north. The people that live up there actively *don't* want MARTA, for fear it will only bring crime and undesirable people to their neck of the woods. Read into that what you like (and you wouldn't be wrong).

@nhlfan79 is 100% correct that a lack of public transit is a feature, not a bug, for the residents of these counties.

I will add that public transit isn't 100% useless re: the Battery. It just adds a metric butt ton of time. As long as you don't mind getting to Arts Center Station first.....*then* getting the bus....*then* walking 10-20 minutes....

 

[aqib]

The Coyotes had playoff runs their first few seasons in Phoenix.

W-L records don’t always translate into how a franchise is run.

I know about the Coyotes having playoff runs early. I point that out a lot on the Coyotes threads when people say that if the team was better the support would be there.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

i hope it does come to atlanta and revamp the youth hockey scene here.

 

[TheLegend]

I know about the Coyotes having playoff runs early. I point that out a lot on the Coyotes threads when people say that if the team was better the support would be there.

Because Phoenix is a fair weather market. Most recent example being the Suns.

Right up to just before the pandemic the team was playing better and attendance went up three years straight.

If you want to go back further they were at one point running in the middle third of ALL teams in attendance.

 

[BMN]

Because Phoenix is a fair weather market. Most recent example being the Suns.

Right up to just before the pandemic the team was playing better and attendance went up three years straight.

To be fair, that's not necessarily logically inconsistent with people who would argue against the NHL in Phoenix for that very reason (AKA "who needs fairweather markets?"). Sometimes we lump all relocationists into the same pile of "they think it can't work in Phoenix because south/hockey/DERRRRRPPPPP!" But some are just "I think this market is lousy for pro sports writ large." (Same goes for Atlanta. I've heard some people argue against it using "south/hockey/derp" but I've also heard "pro sports fandom (except maybe baseball and some people are even stubborn about that somehow) in Atlanta isn't as good as elsewhere so I don't see hockey as any exception."

Mind you, the logical retort to that is that there are probably more fairweather than non-fairweather markets in any major sports league.....

 

[TheLegend]

To be fair, that's not necessarily logically inconsistent with people who would argue against the NHL in Phoenix for that very reason (AKA "who needs fairweather markets?"). Sometimes we lump all relocationists into the same pile of "they think it can't work in Phoenix because south/hockey/DERRRRRPPPPP!" But some are just "I think this market is lousy for pro sports writ large." (Same goes for Atlanta. I've heard some people argue against it using "south/hockey/derp" but I've also heard "pro sports fandom (except maybe baseball and some people are even stubborn about that somehow) in Atlanta isn't as good as elsewhere so I don't see hockey as any exception."

Mind you, the logical retort to that is that there are probably more fairweather than non-fairweather markets in any major sports league.....

For sure... but then you have to take into consideration that prior to Gary Bettman, the NHL had no real plans to come to Arizona. The original Jets ended up in Arizona as a last minute "plan B" in wake of their owners unable to secure an arena deal in Minnesota. They could have ended up somewhere else and with the same problems because you just can jump into a new market without some sort of plan (and the money to carry it out).

People like Bill Foley had a plan for Vegas, and the money to carry it out.

I'm only hoping the people behind going back to Atlanta have the same.

 

[aqib]

Because Phoenix is a fair weather market. Most recent example being the Suns.

Right up to just before the pandemic the team was playing better and attendance went up three years straight.

If you want to go back further they were at one point running in the middle third of ALL teams in attendance.

Not to distract since this is an Atlanta thread, but attendance faded when they were still downtown and still making the playoffs (I am guessing the novelty wore off), rebounded when they got the new arena then it faded again before falling off the floor when they filed bankruptcy. That's despite how cheap tickets are.