Post Deadline Transactions and Signings

[WTFMAN99]

Because he didn't sign an 8 year contract. But that doesn't change the fact that the valuation on his contract falls between McDavid and Eichel, at both the terms they got and with any reasonable assessment of equal term. If your argument is that they're incomparable due to different terms, then I don't know why you attempted to compare them in the first place.

Because Matthews should have been signed to a similar AAV that he got, but at an 8 year term as McDavid and Eichel did, they were considered his peers at the time of the signing. I also did go into the term quite specifically in the initial post;

This is a debate that has been had time and time again, I really am surprised we're doing it all over again at this point.

Quite simply, is Matthews signed to an 8 year term? No, cool, it's not a contract that fell between McDavid and Eichel to me then.

 

[kb]

Because Matthews should have been signed to a similar AAV that he got, but at an 8 year term as McDavid and Eichel did, they were considered his peers at the time of the signing. I also did go into the term quite specifically in the initial post;

View attachment 670765
This is a debate that has been had time and time again, I really am surprised we're doing it all over again at this point.

Quite simply, is Matthews signed to an 8 year term? No, cool, it's not a contract that fell between McDavid and Eichel to me then.

So when did you become the arbiter of what is or isn't fair? I reject your lack of authority on this or any hockey matter..

He ended up exactly where he needed to be.

You don't base it on AAV across different seasons. It's based on cap hit %

 

[Dekes For Days]

Because Matthews should have been signed to a similar AAV that he got, but at an 8 year term as McDavid and Eichel did, they were considered his peers at the time of the signing.

No, Matthews had shown to be worth more than an 8 year contract at 14.64%. That would have been an undervaluing that would have put his contract closer to Eichel despite him actually being far closer to McDavid. 5 years is the most common post-ELC term for players of that caliber.
If different terms make them incomparable according to you, then just say that and stop trying to compare them, especially incorrectly.

 

[WTFMAN99]

No, Matthews had shown to be worth more than an 8 year contract at 14.64%. That would have been an undervaluing that would have put his contract closer to Eichel despite him actually being far closer to McDavid. 5 years is the most common post-ELC term for players of that caliber.
If different terms make them incomparable according to you, then just say that and stop trying to compare them, especially incorrectly.

Spin Spin Spin

 

[Leaffan1991]

Miles Wood at about 2 million in the off season would be nice. Big, physical, fast and decent hands.

 

[ACC1224]

Because Matthews should have been signed to a similar AAV that he got, but at an 8 year term as McDavid and Eichel did, they were considered his peers at the time of the signing. I also did go into the term quite specifically in the initial post;

View attachment 670765
This is a debate that has been had time and time again, I really am surprised we're doing it all over again at this point.

Quite simply, is Matthews signed to an 8 year term? No, cool, it's not a contract that fell between McDavid and Eichel to me then.

This seems reasonable and most should agree with this assessment.

You’ll never get an honest response, not sure why you bother with it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

This seems reasonable

It's literally the furthest from it.
Matthews' contract factually falls within McDavid and Eichel, at their current terms and if we were to equate their terms by any reasonable assessment.
When this was proven to him, he dismissed the comparison he himself brought up, and argued that unless Matthews got an identical term to them instead of the most common post-ELC term for a player like him, his valuation couldn't be counted and he falls outside - which is illogical and wrong.
The picture he posted also incorrectly represents what McDavid and Eichel's contracts actually were in the context of Matthews' signing, as it uses raw AAV signed under a different cap, instead of the cap percentages they actually negotiated at, that would be relevant to Matthews' negotiation.
And of course, his response was to ignore everything he brought up and falsely accuse others of the very thing he was caught doing...

 

[justashadowof]

I'm guessing that Matthews' 8 year ask was for McDavid money (12.5M aav).

And when thinking about what Matthews will probably demand for aav in the summer of 2024, 12.5aav is probably low even with the austerity measures put on players' salaries over the past 3 seasons.

 

[Jozay]

Bob Mckenzie said that on an 8 year deal Matthews wouldve come in at 1+ million more than McDavid, so its not unreasonable to assume that an 8 year deal wouldve come in at least at 16.57% of an 81.5 million dollar cap (that would be a little over 13.5 a year), which is what the cap was in the first year of Matthews' extension.

 

[ToneDog]

Bob Mckenzie said that on an 8 year deal Matthews wouldve come in at 1+ million more than McDavid, so its not unreasonable to assume that an 8 year deal wouldve come in at least at 16.57% of an 81.5 million dollar cap (that would be a little over 13.5 a year), which is what the cap was in the first year of Matthews' extension.

So $1m more than McDavid with a Calder under his belt and 69, 63 and 73 point seasons. Well done Kyle. Here's your extension.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So $1m more than McDavid with a Calder under his belt and 69, 63 and 73 point seasons.

His contract at 8 years would be less than McDavid relative to cap, and that, of course, wildly misrepresents what Matthews had actually shown through his pre-signing period.

Points per game
McDavid - 1.17
Matthews - 0.98
Eichel - 0.80

Primary Points per game
McDavid - 0.83
Matthews - 0.83
Eichel - 0.63

Most recent pace at time of signing
McDavid - 100
Matthews - 99
Eichel - 77

5v5 P/60
McDavid - 2.83
Matthews - 2.63
Eichel - 1.60

5v5 P1/60
Matthews - 2.27
McDavid - 2.18
Eichel - 1.26

PP P/60
Matthews - 6.47
McDavid - 6.44
Eichel - 6.30

PP P1/60
Matthews - 5.06
Eichel - 4.76
McDavid - 3.61

The only way to pretend like Matthews wasn't relatively close to McDavid at time of signing is to look at exclusively points per game and consider zero context or anything else; essentially attempting to pay Matthews not for the quality of player he had proven to be, but punishing him for Babcock's stubbornness and stupidity, which no player would accept. However, if we were doing that, McDavid's contract would be the one that would be the historical outlier, and one of the best post-ELC contracts ever, and wouldn't make Matthews' contract bad or inconsistent with the history of post-ELC contracts.

 

[ToneDog]

His contract at 8 years would be less than McDavid relative to cap, and that, of course, wildly misrepresents what Matthews had actually shown through his pre-signing period.

Points per game
McDavid - 1.17
Matthews - 0.98
Eichel - 0.80

Primary Points per game
McDavid - 0.83
Matthews - 0.83
Eichel - 0.63

Most recent pace at time of signing
McDavid - 100
Matthews - 99
Eichel - 77

5v5 P/60
McDavid - 2.83
Matthews - 2.63
Eichel - 1.60

5v5 P1/60
Matthews - 2.27
McDavid - 2.18
Eichel - 1.26

PP P/60
Matthews - 6.47
McDavid - 6.44
Eichel - 6.30

PP P1/60
Matthews - 5.06
Eichel - 4.76
McDavid - 3.61

The only way to pretend like Matthews wasn't relatively close to McDavid at time of signing is to look at exclusively points per game and consider zero context or anything else; essentially attempting to pay Matthews not for the quality of player he had proven to be, but punishing him for Babcock's stubbornness and stupidity, which no player would accept. However, if we were doing that, McDavid's contract would be the one that would be the historical outlier, and one of the best post-ELC contracts ever, and wouldn't make Matthews' contract bad or inconsistent with the history of post-ELC contracts.

What am I missing when Bobby Mac says:

"an 8 yr deal would’ve come in north of McDavid’s $12.5M by $1M or more"

How is that not an overpay??

34

97

 

[ToneDog]

Anybody claiming to be worth close to McDavid should chew on this:

This guy is miles ahead of the next best player and the gap is widening. LOL.

 

[Dekes For Days]

What am I missing when Bobby Mac says:
"an 8 yr deal would’ve come in north of McDavid’s $12.5M by $1M or more"
How is that not an overpay??

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97
View attachment 671215

Anybody claiming to be worth close to McDavid should chew on this:

View attachment 671223

This guy is miles ahead of the next best player and the gap is widening. LOL.

1. Bobby Mac doesn't know what an 8 year deal would have ended up at. He would either be guessing, or being fed the agent's ask on unnegotiated term.

2. McDavid and Matthews did not sign at the same time. An 8 year deal in the low 13s for Matthews still would have fallen below McDavid's negotiated (17.76%, which is the relevant comparable number) and post-discount (16.67%) cap hit percentages.

3. Most of the time periods you're posting stats for are irrelevant. Anything after the 2017 offseason is irrelevant for McDavid and anything after early February 2019 was irrelevant for Matthews, and did not factor into their contracts. However you think McDavid and Matthews compare now has zero relevance to how they compared at the time of their respective signings, and the simple fact that you've just been shown is that they were relatively close through their pre-signing periods.

4. I provided you a ton of metrics. You're attempting to cherry pick exclusively overall points per game, because it's the only place McDavid saw some separation, but as I already pointed out, doing so breaks the comparison, because McDavid is the historical outlier when only considering that one specific stat, not Matthews. McDavid's contract being better relative to pre-signing points per game doesn't actually say anything about Matthews' contract. The same thing will be true of pretty much every post-ELC contract ever.

 

[Havoc]

This looked like the most appropriate thread to dump this in out of my options:

Lafferty looks like a bootleg Tyler Ennis (when we loved Tyler Ennis) when he tries to drive offense. Tyler Ennis was our 4th liner. Just take that in.

Every 10 games or so Lafferty will end up finally pulling something off after a bunch of failed attempts to keep you interested in him. This team keeps getting worse but management did a good job hoodwinking everyone to think otherwise.

As for the Matthews talk above give him 100% of the cap and run it 1v5 if needed. Lose that guy and I burn every Leaf thing I own. That would be the final straw for me after mess after mess. Time for a new hobby.

If my posts annoy you lately, I genuinely chose Leafs in 4 against Tampa in the poll last season. I get to run my mouth freely cuz my Homer level is elite. Don't @ me

 

[ULF_55]

This looked like the most appropriate thread to dump this in out of my options:

deleted content ...

As for the Matthews talk above give him 100% of the cap and run it 1v5 if needed. Lose that guy and I burn every Leaf thing I own. That would be the final straw for me after mess after mess. Time for a new hobby.

If my posts annoy you lately, I genuinely chose Leafs in 4 against Tampa in the poll last season. I get to run my mouth freely cuz my Homer level is elite. Don't @ me

I've suggested there are posters who'll pay him anything regardless of the outcome on the team.

Good to see that you accept that.

Myself, I'd like to see a winner, I don't care if Matthews, marner, Nylander, Rielly, McDavid are on the team, it is about the Cup, not individual stats for me. If Matthews and a bunch of 4th. liners can win the Cup for the Leafs, sign me up.

 

[Dreakmur]

Bob Mckenzie said that on an 8 year deal Matthews wouldve come in at 1+ million more than McDavid, so its not unreasonable to assume that an 8 year deal wouldve come in at least at 16.57% of an 81.5 million dollar cap (that would be a little over 13.5 a year), which is what the cap was in the first year of Matthews' extension.

Over the first 4 years of the contract, Matthews trails McDavid by about 130 points. Bryan Rust is closer to Matthews than Matthews is to McDavid….

 

[Dekes For Days]

Over the first 4 years of the contract, Matthews trails McDavid by about 130 points.

Over the first 4 years of the contract, everybody that's not a linemate of McDavid trails McDavid by about 130 points.
He's been healthy, pumped full of minutes and opportunity, and he exploded post-signing into the best PP player the league has seen since Lemieux.

 

[Dreakmur]

Over the first 4 years of the contract, everybody that's not a linemate of McDavid trails McDavid by about 130 points.
He's been healthy, pumped full of minutes and opportunity, and he exploded post-signing into the best PP player the league has seen since Lemieux.

Yes, McDavid is way better than Matthews. There are several reasons for that.

 

[Magic Man]

Not long now til JT is off the books at 11M and McDavid is inked for 8 years. We're getting closer. My body is ready.

If we don't get a cup with McDavid and Matthews as the one-two punch + Marner, then they may never get one.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yes, McDavid is way better than Matthews. There are several reasons for that.

McDavid evolved post-signing into a better player on the PP specifically than Matthews and everybody the league has seen since Lemieux.
That's really the only thing he has on Matthews.

 

[rocketman588]

McDavid evolved post-signing into a better player on the PP specifically than Matthews and everybody the league has seen since Lemieux.
That's really the only thing he has on Matthews.

Matthews has 40% of his goals on the PP this year while Mcdavid is at 34%

Last year mcdavid was at 22% Matthews was at 26%

So by your attempted spin Matthews is even less worth the contract dubas gave him

Guess Matthews is only good because he scores on the power play

 

[Dekes For Days]

Matthews has 40% of his goals on the PP this year while Mcdavid is at 34%
Last year mcdavid was at 22% Matthews was at 26%
So by your attempted spin Matthews is even less worth the contract dubas gave him
Guess Matthews is only good because he scores on the power play

...What in the world are you talking about?
For the record, over the 4-year referenced timeframe, the PP makes up 40% of McDavid's point total and 28% of Matthews'.
Matthews produced at essentially the same rate 5v5 as McDavid, and has been hands down the best 5v5 goal scorer in the league, while being better defensively.
The separation comes largely on the PP, where McDavid has blown everybody out of the water.
And not sure how you think that makes Matthews worth less than his contract... Weird conclusion.

 

[rocketman588]

...What in the world are you talking about?
For the record, over the 4-year referenced timeframe, the PP makes up 40% of McDavid's point total and 28% of Matthews'.
Matthews produced at essentially the same rate 5v5 as McDavid, and has been hands down the best 5v5 goal scorer in the league, while being better defensively.
The separation comes largely on the PP, where McDavid has blown everybody out of the water.
And not sure how you think that makes Matthews worth less than his contract... Weird conclusion.

He is not though

So you just got faced with direct stats that Matthews scores more of his goals then mcdavid on the power play and your response is to just deny it

Interesting. Guess it doesn't fit your narrative

Even this year where mcdavid has his most power play points ( but scores a higher percentage of his goals then AM even strength) he's outscoring him 73-41 on even strength points.

You're literally just making stuff up at this point

He's just a better player then Matthews is while most years Matthews is a better goal scorer there's nothing wrong with that. But mcdavid is significantly better then everyone in the world right now

 

[ULF_55]