Post Deadline Transactions and Signings

[Superstar]

Nhl players are paid on the regular season. 0lus the market went up a bit. Why would marner who keep having career bests that keep him in the top 10 of almost every category breaking every record make the same amount as someone who contributes way less than he does. And you may say the cup, but literally anyone except the leafs can be a cup winner. Doesn't matter how weak and lame you are, if you're on a team and they win the cup so automatically you win the cup.

Breaking Leaf records is not the same as breaking NHL records...if Marner wants the Pastrnak contract fine, but not fine if he's looking for McDavid money.

 

[kb]

I don't think a pay cut is necessarily off of the table. Most top guys who are paid well the first time are willing to do so.

Although I don't see Matthews doing that.

What did Matthews do to deserve a pay cut? If winning 2 Rockets, a Hart, a Lindsay, getting a 1st team all star nomination, followed by having a season where he is playing through various injuries and contributing more on the D side is deserving of a pay cut, I hope he goes to Free Agency so he can be paid what he's worth.

He is absolutely not worth less than MacKinnon, who has none of the above.

 

[WestCoastLeafs]

Trading Matthews for lesser assets (since a hockey trade seems very unlikely) and hoping to somehow get better without a 1C doesn't strike me as a smoother path to a cup though

Seems like a good way to return to the days when we had no elite talent and we spent all day making quantity-for-quality proposals in the other direction.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

What did Matthews do to deserve a pay cut? If winning 2 Rockets, a Hart, a Lindsay, getting a 1st team all star nomination, followed by having a season where he is playing through various injuries and contributing more on the D side is deserving of a pay cut, I hope he goes to Free Agency so he can be paid what he's worth.

He is absolutely not worth less than MacKinnon, who has none of the above.

A pay cut in terms of percentage could be possible. He'd still make more money than he makes now.

 

[Menzinger]

Seems like a good way to return to the days when we had no elite talent and we spent all day making quantity-for-quality proposals in the other direction.

Yep. We've been a bit spoiled in terms of star talent so I think some forget how bad things can be.

Took the team 12+ years to find a true 1C after Sundin left

 

[Fogelhund]

While we are complaining about the greatness of players we've traded away. This Leafs legend scored tonight... what could have been....

""

 

[Americanadian]

Looking ahead to the off season I wonder if there's a deal to be made where the Leafs pick up Myers from VAN with a draft pick at the draft, pay his $5M bonus then flip him to ARI (along with the 24 1st) where he will have a $1M salary and $6M cap hit and bring back Crouse. This assumes his bonus pays out on July 1st.

To TOR: TOR 23 3rd, Crouse, Myers $5M bonus
To ARI: Myers, TOR 24 1st
To VAN: Future Considerations

Not sure the value of $5M real cash, maybe a 2nd instead of a 3rd.

Crouse is due 4.6M next season so this would save ARI 3.6M in real money and increase their cap hit by 1.7M. Win-win for the direction they appear to be going. VAN is currently over the cap for next season and this deal saves them 6M on the cap. TOR can afford Crouse IF they get rid of one of Murray/Samsonov.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Looking ahead to the off season I wonder if there's a deal to be made where the Leafs pick up Myers from VAN with a draft pick at the draft, pay his $5M bonus then flip him to ARI (along with the 24 1st) where he will have a $1M salary and $6M cap hit and bring back Crouse. This assumes his bonus pays out on July 1st.

To TOR: TOR 23 3rd, Crouse, Myers $5M bonus
To ARI: Myers, TOR 24 1st
To VAN: Future Considerations

Not sure the value of $5M real cash, maybe a 2nd instead of a 3rd.

Crouse is due 4.6M next season so this would save ARI 3.6M in real money and increase their cap hit by 1.7M. Win-win for the direction they appear to be going. VAN is currently over the cap for next season and this deal saves them 6M on the cap. TOR can afford Crouse IF they get rid of one of Murray/Samsonov.

There is no dead money, but Marleau had a 6.25 mill cap hit with a lot less real dollars and it cost us a 1st.

I'd want their 3rd this year and a future 3rd at least.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Looking ahead to the off season I wonder if there's a deal to be made where the Leafs pick up Myers from VAN with a draft pick at the draft, pay his $5M bonus then flip him to ARI (along with the 24 1st) where he will have a $1M salary and $6M cap hit and bring back Crouse. This assumes his bonus pays out on July 1st.

To TOR: TOR 23 3rd, Crouse, Myers $5M bonus
To ARI: Myers, TOR 24 1st
To VAN: Future Considerations

Not sure the value of $5M real cash, maybe a 2nd instead of a 3rd.

Crouse is due 4.6M next season so this would save ARI 3.6M in real money and increase their cap hit by 1.7M. Win-win for the direction they appear to be going. VAN is currently over the cap for next season and this deal saves them 6M on the cap. TOR can afford Crouse IF they get rid of one of Murray/Samsonov.

I like the idea. Is this actually feasible though?

Also, would assume Murray is gone, not Samsonov who’s going to be our top guy moving forward.

 

[Gabriel426]

Looking ahead to the off season I wonder if there's a deal to be made where the Leafs pick up Myers from VAN with a draft pick at the draft, pay his $5M bonus then flip him to ARI (along with the 24 1st) where he will have a $1M salary and $6M cap hit and bring back Crouse. This assumes his bonus pays out on July 1st.

To TOR: TOR 23 3rd, Crouse, Myers $5M bonus
To ARI: Myers, TOR 24 1st
To VAN: Future Considerations

Not sure the value of $5M real cash, maybe a 2nd instead of a 3rd.

Crouse is due 4.6M next season so this would save ARI 3.6M in real money and increase their cap hit by 1.7M. Win-win for the direction they appear to be going. VAN is currently over the cap for next season and this deal saves them 6M on the cap. TOR can afford Crouse IF they get rid of one of Murray/Samsonov.

Why don’t Nucks do that themselves?

 

[Americanadian]

Why don’t Nucks do that themselves?

They need to clear significant cap space and can’t take on Crouse. They are already at 82.5M for next season.

They could trade Miller to PIT and flip the draft picks and Myers to ARI for Schmatz to fill their 2C though.

I like the idea. Is this actually feasible though?

Also, would assume Murray is gone, not Samsonov who’s going to be our top guy moving forward.

Agreed on Murray. Is it feasible? Probably not. GMs aren’t really creative, Dubas included.

There is no dead money, but Marleau had a 6.25 mill cap hit with a lot less real dollars and it cost us a 1st.

I'd want their 3rd this year and a future 3rd at least.

I think the real money was around 4M on Marleau but CAR had to eat the full cap hit on their books.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Is it feasible? Probably not. GMs aren’t really creative, Dubas included.

It's not that GMs aren't creative. It's that your proposal is unrealistic.
Why is Toronto paying 5 million dollars for a 3rd round pick?
Why is Arizona trading Crouse, and for what is essentially just a late 1st round pick and a cap dump? He's a long-term player and one of their biggest remaining assets.
Why does Arizona want Myers? They're not really at risk of not hitting the cap floor. With their LTIRs and retentions, they're at ~54m with just 10 players next year. And if they really want to add cap they don't have to pay for, they can just find another LTIR.
And quite frankly, why does Toronto want Crouse? The perception of his "intangibles" will likely increase the return he would actually get more than it should, and if we're making that kind of money and term commitment to that role, we could likely just re-sign Bunting or O'Rielly - which Crouse would largely block.
Why would Vancouver not just pay the signing bonus and move Myers to Arizona themselves as what you seem to think is a positive asset? I'm sure Arizona could get a better offer than a late 1st for Crouse separately.

 

[Americanadian]

It's not that GMs aren't creative. It's that your proposal is unrealistic.
Why is Toronto paying 5 million dollars for a 3rd round pick?
Why is Arizona trading Crouse, and for what is essentially just a late 1st round pick and a cap dump? He's a long-term player and one of their biggest remaining assets.
Why does Arizona want Myers? They're not really at risk of not hitting the cap floor. With their LTIRs and retentions, they're at ~54m with just 10 players next year. And if they really want to add cap they don't have to pay for, they can just find another LTIR.
And quite frankly, why does Toronto want Crouse? The perception of his "intangibles" will likely increase the return he would actually get more than it should, and if we're making that kind of money and term commitment to that role, we could likely just re-sign Bunting or O'Rielly - which Crouse would largely block.
Why would Vancouver not just pay the signing bonus and move Myers to Arizona themselves as what you seem to think is a positive asset? I'm sure Arizona could get a better offer than a late 1st for Crouse separately.

This is a lot to tackle.

1. Why is Toronto paying 5 million dollars for a 3rd round pick?
Why not? As I said, it could be worth more, either way Vancouver appears to want to shed his cap hit.

2. Why is Arizona trading Crouse, and for what is essentially just a late 1st round pick and a cap dump?
Why did they ship out Chychrun? Chychrun appears to be a better asset and he got a 1st and 2 2nds. I don't disagree that Crouse could be worth more. Arizona appears to stock draft capital while decreasing actual spend, based on their actions. This accomplishes both.

3. Why does Arizona want Myers?
They're currently at 56M with 13 roster players next season and none of their expiring contracts will get a raise above 2M. This would give them 1.7M in additional cap hit.

4. And quite frankly, why does Toronto want Crouse?
Crouse has actually been good by the numbers. He's 41st among forwards in EVO GAR and 49th in EVO xGAR. Both are first line numbers. He is young and on a good contract for 4 seasons after this. He'd allow the Leafs to run a top 9 of:

Bunting (3.75M)-Matthews-Marner
Crouse-Tavares-Nylander
Knies-ROR (3M)-Jarnkrok

5. Why would Vancouver not just pay the signing bonus and move Myers to Arizona themselves as what you seem to think is a positive asset?

This is entirely possible. As I said earlier in this thread there is a strong match where Miller goes to PIT, Myers to ARI and Schmaltz to VAN. I am basing the price of Crouse off the price of Chychrun. Given his contract and his production relative to team I would pay more than the 24 1st for him.

Question for you: what is the most creative thing Dubas has done?

 

[ToneDog]

This is a lot to tackle.

1. Why is Toronto paying 5 million dollars for a 3rd round pick?
Why not? As I said, it could be worth more, either way Vancouver appears to want to shed his cap hit.

2. Why is Arizona trading Crouse, and for what is essentially just a late 1st round pick and a cap dump?
Why did they ship out Chychrun? Chychrun appears to be a better asset and he got a 1st and 2 2nds. I don't disagree that Crouse could be worth more. Arizona appears to stock draft capital while decreasing actual spend, based on their actions. This accomplishes both.

3. Why does Arizona want Myers?
They're currently at 56M with 13 roster players next season and none of their expiring contracts will get a raise above 2M. This would give them 1.7M in additional cap hit.

4. And quite frankly, why does Toronto want Crouse?
Crouse has actually been good by the numbers. He's 41st among forwards in EVO GAR and 49th in EVO xGAR. Both are first line numbers. He is young and on a good contract for 4 seasons after this. He'd allow the Leafs to run a top 9 of:

Bunting (3.75M)-Matthews-Marner
Crouse-Tavares-Nylander
Knies-ROR (3M)-Jarnkrok

5. Why would Vancouver not just pay the signing bonus and move Myers to Arizona themselves as what you seem to think is a positive asset?

This is entirely possible. As I said earlier in this thread there is a strong match where Miller goes to PIT, Myers to ARI and Schmaltz to VAN. I am basing the price of Crouse off the price of Chychrun. Given his contract and his production relative to team I would pay more than the 24 1st for him.

Question for you: what is the most creative thing Dubas has done?

The Untouchables.

 

[Fogelhund]

The need for a Crouse, is probably predicated on what Knies does for us somewhat. But, I suppose there is nothing wrong with having two big LW’s either.

If I’m exploring obtaining a big LW in the off-season, I think I’m going for Comtois. He’s likely to become a UFA, he’s going to be cheap, and he actually has a higher PPG than Crouse over his career. Of course Comtois has struggled the last year and a bit, so it’s a gamble, but he’s shown more talent at his best, doesn’t cost assets and would be a third of the cap hit.

 

[Dekes For Days]

1. Why is Toronto paying 5 million dollars for a 3rd round pick?
Why not? As I said, it could be worth more, either way Vancouver appears to want to shed his cap hit.

Why not? Because 5 million is a massive amount to pay for a 3rd round pick...

2. Why is Arizona trading Crouse, and for what is essentially just a late 1st round pick and a cap dump?
Why did they ship out Chychrun? Chychrun appears to be a better asset and he got a 1st and 2 2nds. I don't disagree that Crouse could be worth more. Arizona appears to stock draft capital while decreasing actual spend, based on their actions. This accomplishes both.

They shipped out Chychrun because he requested a trade out of there. He also only had 2 years left in his contract, so he would be off his great deal and likely gone before they had any chance of being competitive anyway. Crouse has 4 years left, and has had no reported trade requests. It's not the same situation. And there's also only so many players you can dump and only so many prospects you can have at one time. Arizona is already loaded with draft picks over the next few years. How are they going to sign all of these prospects if they hit? The value they got for Chychrun (1st + 1st/2nd + 2nd) was pretty bad, which is why the saga stretched out for a year, but it should also be noted how much more a 2023 Ottawa 1st rounder is worth than a 2024 Leaf 1st rounder. Arizona could get more than a late 1st for Crouse. There's no reason for them to take that deal.

3. Why does Arizona want Myers?
They're currently at 56M with 13 roster players next season and none of their expiring contracts will get a raise above 2M. This would give them 1.7M in additional cap hit.

That means they're only about 6m from the floor, and have about 10 roster players to add. Even filling all of those with league minimum players, they'd be over the floor. They don't need Myers, and if they really wanted to add cap they pay less for, they could add LTIRs and pay nothing. Or they could add those draft picks you say they want by taking on actual contracts from teams tight to the cap.

4. And quite frankly, why does Toronto want Crouse?
Crouse has actually been good by the numbers.

Crouse has been good by the numbers, but he's the type of asset that gets overvalued, and he's likely not worth the cost we'd have to pay to go from O'Rielly/Bunting to him.

He'd allow the Leafs to run a top 9 of:

Bunting (3.75M)-Matthews-Marner
Crouse-Tavares-Nylander
Knies-ROR (3M)-Jarnkrok

Bunting at 3.75m is optimistic enough, but you're definitely not getting ROR for 3m.

5. Why would Vancouver not just pay the signing bonus and move Myers to Arizona themselves as what you seem to think is a positive asset?
This is entirely possible.

Seems way more likely, in this scenario.

Question for you: what is the most creative thing Dubas has done?

Guess it depends how you define creative. To name a few...
Using other avenues (overseas, NCAA, undrafted, etc.) to add players and prospects to the team...
Protecting his roster in the expansion draft for a cheap cost...
Taking on the last year of Clarkson's LTIR when we were already in LTIR to both pick up a pick and better protect against Marner negotiations stretching into the season...
Using open cap space while in LTIR to be a 3rd retaining team to pick up a draft pick...
Adding Nash to the team without having him count against the cap because he was on LTIR until the playoffs...
Etc.

 

[Americanadian]

Guess it depends how you define creative. To name a few...
Using other avenues (overseas, NCAA, undrafted, etc.) to add players and prospects to the team...
Protecting his roster in the expansion draft for a cheap cost...
Taking on the last year of Clarkson's LTIR when we were already in LTIR to both pick up a pick and better protect against Marner negotiations stretching into the season...
Using open cap space while in LTIR to be a 3rd retaining team to pick up a draft pick...
Adding Nash to the team without having him count against the cap because he was on LTIR until the playoffs...
Etc.

Skipping past a lot of the argumentative stuff because I just disagree and we're not going to fix that. Although I will revisit this post when ROR/Bunting sign their next contracts.

He definitely isn't the first team to sign European/NCAA/Undrafted UFAs but I will give you the rest. It's unfortunate the only move of consequence was insulating Kerfoot so he doesn't get taken and it probably wasn't the correct move.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Skipping past a lot of the argumentative stuff because I just disagree and we're not going to fix that. Although I will revisit this post when ROR/Bunting sign their next contracts.

It's not "argumentative stuff". It's literally just the facts of the situation, that make your proposal unrealistic. If ROR and Bunting sign for that, that means we got an amazing deal and they signed under market to play for the Leafs. I don't think you can hang a whole proposal on that, and it doesn't fix all of the other issues.

 

[Americanadian]

It's not "argumentative stuff". It's literally just the facts of the situation, that make your proposal unrealistic. If ROR and Bunting sign for that, that means we got an amazing deal and they signed under market to play for the Leafs. I don't think you can hang a whole proposal on that, and it doesn't fix all of the other issues.

I don't think Crouse will go for 2 1sts. I can see 1st+2nd or 1st+good prospect.

I also don't think Bunting is worth more than 3.75M. 3.75Mx8 (30M total) should be a very competitive offer.

I also don't think ROR is even worth more than 3M right now and there's a lot of smoke about him taking a "discount" to stay in Toronto. On yesterdays Leaf Report Mirtle said he's asking for 4M.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

McCabe @ 2m for 2 more years is pure gold for this org.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I don't think Crouse will go for 2 1sts. I can see 1st+2nd or 1st+good prospect.
I also don't think Bunting is worth more than 3.75M. 3.75Mx8 (30M total) should be a very competitive offer.
I also don't think ROR is even worth more than 3M right now and there's a lot of smoke about him taking a "discount" to stay in Toronto. On yesterdays Leaf Report Mirtle said he's asking for 4M.

Crouse can get more than a late 1st and a cap dump - which was your proposal.
Whether or not you think Bunting is worth more than 3.75m or not, he'd be able to get more than that on the open market.
Not sure how you could think ROR is only worth 3m right now. If he takes a discount to stay here great, but until that happens, I don't think we should base already problematic proposals around a series of discounts.

 

[Americanadian]

Crouse can get more than a late 1st and a cap dump - which was your proposal.
Whether or not you think Bunting is worth more than 3.75m or not, he'd be able to get more than that on the open market.
Not sure how you could think ROR is only worth 3m right now. If he takes a discount to stay here great, but until that happens, I don't think we should base already problematic proposals around a series of discounts.

I responded to you earlier and said I'd gladly add on to the 1st for Crouse.

I compare Bunting to Strome on the open market. The entire market saw him as a product of his environment and the market didn't match his point totals. Strome was a C, Bunting a winger. As I said - I think 8 years at 3.75M should be a very competitive offer.

 

[Fogelhund]

I responded to you earlier and said I'd gladly add on to the 1st for Crouse.

I compare Bunting to Strome on the open market. The entire market saw him as a product of his environment and the market didn't match his point totals. Strome was a C, Bunting a winger. As I said - I think 8 years at 3.75M should be a very competitive offer.

Why Crouse for a first ++, @$4.3, over Comtois for free at $1.5? They've had very similar stats over their careers, though Crouse has been better recently, Comtois had the higher peak.

 

[Americanadian]

Why Crouse for a first ++, @$4.3, over Comtois for free at $1.5? They've had very similar stats over their careers, though Crouse has been better recently.

I see Crouse as a perfect fit in the Leafs top 6 right now whereas I see Comtois as a project. Comtois' underlying numbers have taken a huge dive over the last 2 seasons which makes me believe there's something going on besides just bad team. He also doesn't hit as much as you'd want from a power forward which I know isn't everything but it is a quantifiable part of the PWF game.

There was also a lot of speculation that he was one of the 1999 born players named in the Team Canada investigation which may or may not be affecting his psyche and drifting into his on-ice play.

Also - let's say you sign him to a try-out contract similar to Bunting and play him in the top 6 and he turns into the player he was in 2020-21. There's a high likelihood he prices himself out of Toronto in 1-2 seasons whereas Crouse is locked in for 4 more at 4.3M.

I also do like the idea of having Ontario born players on the team. I know it may seem pointless but I personally like the story.

 

[Fogelhund]

I see Crouse as a perfect fit in the Leafs top 6 right now whereas I see Comtois as a project. Comtois' underlying numbers have taken a huge dive over the last 2 seasons which makes me believe there's something going on besides just bad team. He also doesn't hit as much as you'd want from a power forward which I know isn't everything but it is a quantifiable part of the PWF game.

There was also a lot of speculation that he was one of the 1999 born players named in the Team Canada investigation which may or may not be affecting his psyche and drifting into his on-ice play.

Also - let's say you sign him to a try-out contract similar to Bunting and play him in the top 6 and he turns into the player he was in 2020-21. There's a high likelihood he prices himself out of Toronto in 1-2 seasons whereas Crouse is locked in for 4 more at 4.3M.

I also do like the idea of having Ontario born players on the team. I know it may seem pointless but I personally like the story.

the 1999 is a concern, though it wouldn't be hard to determine if he was involved.... and I get the hitting too...

I suppose I'm looking at it from the viewpoint... If you bring Bunting and RoR back... "if"... then you probably don't have the cap room for Crouse.