Post Deadline Transactions and Signings

[Phion Keneuf]

I'd still do it. Jeannot is going to a fine bottom 6 player. Tomasino will be a more impactful players (offense+defense) at a more premium position than Nylander. Overall they would have been 5M cheaper this season as well.

It's hard for me to respect your opinion as unbiased given your username.

That’s horrible.

 

[WestCoastLeafs]

That's a highly misleading take on the impact of the Eichel trade on Buffalo. Finished 1 point out of a playoff spot, huge year over year improvement (and indeed much better single season result than they ever had with Eichel) with nothing resembling a starting goalie on the roster and the majority of the (potential) return as yet unrealized.

Yes, compared to where they were with Eichel injured, they improved moderately. Still well below where they would have wanted to be with a healthy Eichel.

 

[Buds17]

Marner for Keller + Schmaltz

Clayton Keller's dad said he will not stay with the Coyotes. If Arizona is indeed moving to Salt Lake, they'll want a star player to be the new face of their franchise. Who better than magic Mitch?

I don't know how well that might work out for Keller considering the amount of term left on his contract? Aside from that, it wouldn't appear to be in the best interests of that franchise to acquire a player in return that's much closer to reaching UFA status than Keller is.

 

[Kurtz]

I wasn't the one who proposed this. My 2 proposals for Marner in this thread were Marner for Mercer, Bastian and Marner for Jarvis, Morrow.

I do think the Wilson proposal is good though. I don't value Marner as highly as this board - not due to pure talent, I think he's a top 10 player, but due to contract situation. 8OA in a deep draft is not a 0% chance to become Marner.

Here's a list of all 8th overall draft picks going back to the 60's.

NHL Draft History - 8th Pick Overall - The Hockey Writers NHL Entry Draft Latest News, Analysis & More

The history of the NHL Draft series continues with a look at the last decade of 8th overall picks, featuring four Sabres picks.

thehockeywriters.com

Go ahead, peruse this list, and tell me how many of the 60 guys drafted there are superior players to Marner.

Hint: you'd have to go back 45 years to find the first one.

 

[Americanadian]

Here's a list of all 8th overall draft picks going back to the 60's.

NHL Draft History - 8th Pick Overall - The Hockey Writers NHL Entry Draft Latest News, Analysis & More

The history of the NHL Draft series continues with a look at the last decade of 8th overall picks, featuring four Sabres picks.

thehockeywriters.com

Go ahead, peruse this list, and tell me how many of the 60 guys drafted there are superior players to Marner.

I'd gladly take an 18 year old Clarke, Quinn, Couturier, Werenski, Nylander in a Marner deal. What you seem to be missing is these players are under team control for 7 years and through their prime. Marner is under team control for 2 years and then his next contract will be after his prime. He also costs 10M more than an ELC. 10M that can be spent on multiple other top 6 options.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Marner for Keller + Crouse would be perfect.

Would love Cooley somehow but don’t see that happening.

 

[the real Fox mulder]

I See a lot of Marner for Lindholm + Andersson trade. I don't think Calgary does that and how do we keep him when Matthew and Nylander contract are up next year.

 

[Kurtz]

I'd gladly take an 18 year old Clarke, Quinn, Couturier, Werenski, Nylander in a Marner deal. What you seem to be missing is these players are under team control for 7 years and through their prime. Marner is under team control for 2 years and then his next contract will be after his prime. He also costs 10M more than an ELC. 10M that can be spent on multiple other top 6 options.

First of all if you would take any of those guys over Marner then I really have to question your ability to evaluate talent.

Secondly, Marner will be 28 at the expiry of his deal. That is not post prime.

Thirdly, an 18 year version of those guys is not able to contribute on any meaningful level for at least 3 years, and won't reach their prime for about 6. So you're actively made the team worse for the next half-decade.

Lastly, what collection of free agents is out there that would improve us more than Marner for $10m?

 

[Phion Keneuf]

If Matthews gets $15M, Marner is gonna want $14M.

Both insane overpayments.

I’d give Nylander the M.Tkachuk contract, which he’s worth, especially compared to those other 2.

 

[Brobust]

I See a lot of Marner for Lindholm + Andersson trade. I don't think Calgary does that and how do we keep him when Matthew and Nylander contract are up next year.

Dubas put emphasis on how Florida got a younger player back.

 

[WillNy29]

I'd still do it. Jeannot is going to a fine bottom 6 player. Tomasino will be a more impactful players (offense+defense) at a more premium position than Nylander. Overall they would have been 5M cheaper this season as well.

It's hard for me to respect your opinion as unbiased given your username.

I took the username because I lost my old account but that's besides the point; Jeannot is not a good hockey player. Outside of sky high shooting percentage last to last season he didn't have good defensive metrics from my understanding it would be a waste to have him in our bottom 6. We should definitely be adding grit but it needs to be fast and defensively responsible. Tomasino is a crap shoot there's a lot of question marks about his game and he hasn't shown much in the 4 years since being drafted to warrant being a main piece in this trade.

If you trade Nylander you need to improve on your Defense and your ability to transition the puck because no one else knows how.

 

[Brobust]

First of all if you would take any of those guys over Marner then I really have to question your ability to evaluate talent.

Secondly, Marner will be 28 at the expiry of his deal. That is not post prime.

Thirdly, an 18 year version of those guys is not able to contribute on any meaningful level for at least 3 years, and won't reach their prime for about 6. So you're actively made the team worse for the next half-decade.

Lastly, what collection of free agents is out there that would improve us more than Marner for $10m?

Are we forgetting that this entire season, whenever a line struggled, Keefe's solution was just stick Marner on that line.

There are maybe 5 wingers in the NHL with that kind of impact. Even less when you consider his 2-way play.

 

[Kurtz]

I don't like that particular trade, but I think that we can come away a better team with the proverbial 4 quarters trade.
Following the Eichel template
Top-6 Forward making 5m for 3-5 more years + top prospect ready to step in + 1st rounder+ 2nd rounder +Use the 5.9 we save on another forward at UFA.

No one player as good as Marner, but (assuming Nylander is re-signed) we still have an elite 1st line RW, two new proven top 6 guys, Knies + another top prospect stepping into the lineup cheaply, and a 1st + 2nd that can either be used to restock the pool for a wider contention window, or provide the base of a deal for another d-man.

Does trading a dollar for quarters often work out? For example, Calgary traded a dollar for quarters this past off-season and went from top of the West to a joke. Florida picked up their dollar for a few quarters and we see the results for them.

I can't think of too many teams who came out ahead by trading their young superstar for pieces.

 

[Americanadian]

First of all if you would take any of those guys over Marner then I really have to question your ability to evaluate talent.

Secondly, Marner will be 28 at the expiry of his deal. That is not post prime.

Thirdly, an 18 year version of those guys is not able to contribute on any meaningful level for at least 3 years, and won't reach their prime for about 6. So you're actively made the team worse for the next half-decade.

Lastly, what collection of free agents is out there that would improve us more than Marner for $10m?

I didn't say they were better than Marner. I said I'd take them at 18 years old over Marner right now. Prime age for NHL players is 24/25 A New Look at Aging Curves for NHL Skaters (part 1).

This team shouldn't be solely focused on next season. They will still be a franchise in 3 years. As I proposed - you can acquire Wilson or Niederreiter or Perron and sign Bertuzzi. The following season you have Debrusk, Reinhart, Pesce, Hanifin in UFA.

 

[Kurtz]

Are we forgetting that this entire season, whenever a line struggled, Keefe's solution was just stick Marner on that line.

There are maybe 5 wingers in the NHL with that kind of impact. Even less when you consider his 2-way play.

Yup. Such insanity to want to trade a 26 year old 100 point selke nominee for lottery tickets, especially given how well he just played against Tampa.

I'd understand proposals like Marner for Heiskanen. If you can get a young #1 dman for him then you absolutely have to consider it. But to think that you can improve by trading him for picks/depth players is ridiculous.

 

[Americanadian]

Does trading a dollar for quarters often work out? For example, Calgary traded a dollar for quarters this past off-season and went from top of the West to a joke. Florida picked up their dollar for a few quarters and we see the results for them.

I can't think of too many teams who came out ahead by trading their young superstar for pieces.

Calgary traded a dollar for two 60 cent players then paid them $1.10. If Calgary signed Huberdeau and Weegar to contracts that reflected their production the trade wouldn't look so bad.

 

[4thline]

Does trading a dollar for quarters often work out? For example, Calgary traded a dollar for quarters this past off-season and went from top of the West to a joke. Florida picked up their dollar for a few quarters and we see the results for them.

I can't think of too many teams who came out ahead by trading their young superstar for pieces.

Calgary didn't trade their dollar for quarters though, they traded a long term dollar for two that were only guaranteed for a season, one of which turned out to be counterfeit, and had their team implode based on coaching/ mix. I wouldn't write that trade off yet.

Buffalo did. I can't think of too many teams that can trade a superstar and still have 3 more. It's the catch-22 of the whole scenario. Either there's nothing wrong with our roster composition and top-heaviness, or a trade either needs to be for a d-man or a package.

 

[Kurtz]

I didn't say they were better than Marner. I said I'd take them at 18 years old over Marner right now. Prime age for NHL players is 24/25 A New Look at Aging Curves for NHL Skaters (part 1).

This team shouldn't be solely focused on next season. They will still be a franchise in 3 years. As I proposed - you can acquire Wilson or Niederreiter or Perron and sign Bertuzzi. The following season you have Debrusk, Reinhart, Pesce, Hanifin in UFA.

Going from Marner to Niederreiter and Bertuzzi is awful management.

Besides, we have plenty of cap space this offseason to get any of those 4 once Murray is LTIR or dealt.

And I love the argument that trading Marner for any of these 4 vets is long-term thinking, when it is clearly a short-term reactionary reflex to losing to Florida last week.

 

[Brobust]

Calgary traded a dollar for two 60 cent players then paid them $1.10. If Calgary signed Huberdeau and Weegar to contracts that reflected their production the trade wouldn't look so bad.

You do realize that Dubas pointed to Florida when mentioning that deal, right?

He put particular empahsis on getting the younger and better player back.

 

[Americanadian]

I took the username because I lost my old account but that's besides the point; Jeannot is not a good hockey player. Outside of sky high shooting percentage last to last season he didn't have good defensive metrics from my understanding it would be a waste to have him in our bottom 6. We should definitely be adding grit but it needs to be fast and defensively responsible. Tomasino is a crap shoot there's a lot of question marks about his game and he hasn't shown much in the 4 years since being drafted to warrant being a main piece in this trade.

If you trade Nylander you need to improve on your Defense and your ability to transition the puck because no one else knows how.

At the time of the trade proposal Tomasino was coming off a full NHL season as a 20 year old where he put up very strong defensive results (his defensive impact number were top 10 in the league among forwards). He also had near identical AHL production to Nylander at the same age. When I made the trade proposal I wasn't claiming Jeannot was a certain 20 goal scorer, my argument was that he would be a good bottom 6 player for under 1M which he was in the 21/22 season.

 

[Americanadian]

Going from Marner to Niederreiter and Bertuzzi is awful management.

Besides, we have plenty of cap space this offseason to get any of those 4 once Murray is LTIR or dealt.

And I love the argument that trading Marner for any of these 4 vets is long-term thinking, when it is clearly a short-term reactionary reflex to losing to Florida last week.

My tone on this core has been the same since Columbus and I've only been proven correct. Again - you are ignoring the 8OA.

When did I propose trading Marner for any of those players one for one? The proposed trades are on post #2574 if you want some context.

 

[Kurtz]

Calgary didn't trade their dollar for quarters though, they traded a long term dollar for two that were only guaranteed for a season, one of which turned out to be counterfeit, and had their team implode based on coaching/ mix. I wouldn't write that trade off yet.

Buffalo did. I can't think of too many teams that can trade a superstar and still have 3 more. It's the catch-22 of the whole scenario. Either there's nothing wrong with our roster composition and top-heaviness, or a trade either needs to be for a d-man or a package.

Which Buffalo trade are we talking about, the one where they gave away ROR to watch him lift the cup and get the Conn Smythe shortly after, or the Eichel trade where there's a good chance that they're about to see him lift the cup and get the Conn Smythe?

 

[Americanadian]

You do realize that Dubas pointed to Florida when mentioning that deal, right?

He put particular empahsis on getting the younger and better player back.

Did I propose trading Marner for 2 older players? Obviously the main piece of a Marner deal should be a younger player.

Which Buffalo trade are we talking about, the one where they gave away ROR to watch him lift the cup and get the Conn Smythe shortly after, or the Eichel trade where there's a good chance that they're about to see him lift the cup and get the Conn Smythe?

Give me Tuch+Thompson at 6.1M this season over Eichel at 10M or ROR at 7.5M. Buffalo was never winning a cup with ROR or Eichel so they dealt them. Toronto need to come to that realization the same way they did with Kadri, Bozak and Kessel.

 

[Brobust]

Did I propose trading Marner for 2 older players? Obviously the main piece of a Marner deal should be a younger player.


Give me Tuch+Thompson at 6.1M this season over Eichel at 10M or ROR at 7.5M. Buffalo was never winning a cup with ROR or Eichel so they dealt them. Toronto need to come to that realization the same way they did with Kadri, Bozak and Kessel.

Then why try to weaken that asset by attaching an older player to it?

If the pick/younger player is the focal point, then try to get the best one possible.

 

[Kurtz]

Did I propose trading Marner for 2 older players? Obviously the main piece of a Marner deal should be a younger player.


Give me Tuch+Thompson at 6.1M this season over Eichel at 10M or ROR at 7.5M. Buffalo was never winning a cup with ROR or Eichel so they dealt them. Toronto need to come to that realization the same way they did with Kadri, Bozak and Kessel.

You've proposed exchanging Marner for a number of vets and the 8th overall pick. Making us worse in the short term, but giving us a lottery ticket that has a chance to hit several years from now.

We're a lot closer to the cup than we were in the Bozak and Kessel years, largely because now we have superstars and no longer need to rely on Bozak to be our #1C.

The Kadri trade was a disaster and it's insane that you view it as something to emulate.