Possible trade and roster fixes for the Wings, Part III

[The Zermanator]

Trade for an upcoming UFA like Tallinder, Matt Greene, Timonen, Zidlicky, Orpik, Morris, etc.

Mid-level UFA rental d-men shouldn't be too expensive.

Morris for example:

Kronwall-Ericsson
DeKeyser-Smith
Almquist-Morris
Lashoff

That gives us some good D options on ES, PP, and PK. Plus Morris is a righty.

 

[Frk It]

Trade for an upcoming UFA like Tallinder, Matt Greene, Timonen, Zidlicky, Orpik, Morris, etc.

Mid-level UFA rental d-men shouldn't be too expensive.

Morris for example:

Kronwall-Ericsson
DeKeyser-Smith
Almquist-Morris
Lashoff

That gives us some good D options on ES, PP, and PK. Plus Morris is a righty.

Matt Greene please. Doubt Pitt lets Orpik, go but I'd love him too.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I did last year.

Jay Boumeester. Only time I have pulled for Holland to trade for a specific player.

i said the exact same thing

as for vet dmen how about tallinder?

 

[LeighDx59]

Matt Greene please. Doubt Pitt lets Orpik, go but I'd love him too.

Greene or Morris would be perfect.

 

[Crymson]

i'll note, once again, to this and this and this.

some stats have changed a bit as he's played few game since then. but the point stands.

Congratulations on your ability to throw out numbers. They don't disprove the allegation that Edler is very mediocre in his own end. This team does not need another defenseman who cannot play defense.

there are reasons to be concerned with edler; reasons to think that he's not the best fit and not worth the price. but his +/- this year is not one of them. unless one believes he's medicore AHLer. and players like lashoff are better at controlling on-ice sh%. in scoring chance situations, he has twice the on-ice sh% edler does. maybe edler's on-ice sh% is just randomness then?

Having one of the league's worst +/- ratings means something.

edler's on-ice sh% in scring chances is not even half of what it is for the canucks when he's on the ice. and there's no way that can be on him. it's not that he's not doing his part of offense as they are getting chances but they aren't going in. it's not on edler that his forwards can't finish. and that's the biggest thing why his +/- is that bad.

Ah, so it's back to "It's not Edler's fault." If he truly is the team's offensive pivot, then some of the blame falls on him.

moreover, there have been few dman who have been in similar situation like edler is now. all bounced back (in +/-). no one has had as bad on-ice sh% long-term (for many seasons).

He might bounce back, he might not. In the latter event, this team will have met Gillis's surely absurd asking price and become saddled with an expensive defenseman who doesn't perform to expectations. No thanks.

and if edler couldn't generate offense, there probably wouldn't be only 4 dman this season that have scored higher % of goals for their team, when they've been on the ice? 5on5 numbers. edler has a point on 53.3% of goals that the canucks have scored when he's on the ice. only 5 dman this season have more. if edler can't drive offense, there quite many dman in NHL that can't, no (erik karlsson being one of them)?

Again: -23. He's terrible in his own end. Believe it or not, that's important. If he can score, great; but if he also gets the team scored on regularly, then his offensive prowess means much less.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Congratulations on your ability to throw out numbers. They don't disprove the allegation that Edler is very mediocre in his own end. This team does not need another defenseman who cannot play defense.

thank you.

i never said edler isn't medicore in his own end.

he's no stud defensively but i don't agree that he can't play defense.

Having one of the league's worst +/- ratings means something.

yes, it means that he's forwards can't score.

Ah, so it's back to "It's not Edler's fault." If he truly is the team's offensive pivot, then some of the blame falls on him.

some, sure.

tell me, how can edler influence the sh% of canucks forwards?

similar shot location, similar amount of shots. they go in when edler has been out this year and they won't when he's been on the ice. how is that edler's fault? it can't be put on edler that he's not doing his job, not getting the pucks to his forwards, not getting them into scoring areas, being pinned into his own end or anything.

and one can't say that he hasn't been driving offense as he has one of the highest % of goals and points among dmen this year when his team scores.

He might bounce back, he might not. In the latter event, this team will have met Gillis's surely absurd asking price and become saddled with an expensive defenseman who doesn't perform to expectations. No thanks.

ZERO defenseman have had as low on-ice sh% long-term. some have had as bad short-term. like karlsson, subban, campbell etc.

i don't want to make the deal if the asking price is similar to what it was last summer.

edler wouldn't be no where near my first option unless it wasn't out there that wings have been interested him for a long time and he's possibly available.

Again: -23. He's terrible in his own end. Believe it or not, that's important. If he can score, great; but if he also gets the team scored on regularly, then his offensive prowess means much less.

-23 doesn't say he's terrible on his own end or that he gets scored on a lot. i explained why he is -23, Believe it or not, that's important. lidström was on the ice for MORE goals against when he won his 7th norris than edler has been this year, relative to their ice time.

shea weber has been on the ice for more goals against this year. so has ericsson, for example. also relative to their ice time ofc. so edler doesn't get advantage because he's missed time.

same with duncan keith when he won the norris.

he's -23 because canucks forwards can't finish. NOT because he's been terrible on his own end and being scored on a lot. Believe it or not, that's important piece of info.

 

[Henkka]

-23 doesn't say he's terrible on his own end or that he gets scored on a lot. i explained why he is -23, Believe it or not, that's important. lidström was on the ice for MORE goals against when he won his 7th norris than edler has been this year, relative to their ice time.

So just plusses are missing, because the offensive game isn't clicking in tortorella's new system?

 

[InjuredChoker]

So just plusses are missing, because the offensive game isn't clicking in tortorella's new system?

imo it's wrong to say offensive game is missing. he has point on over 50% of goals the canucks score when he's on the ice. they are getting fair amount of shots and though it's from little farther out on average than usual, it's no even close to being enough to explain why they aren't going in. offense hasn't been as good as usual but not missing.

goals for are missing. some players have scored on better rate on penalty kill. small sample but still. can't check as the site isn't working right now.

but iirc, edler's GF/20 was something like less than half of what it has been in the past.

i also think it's unfair to blame it all on torts as canucks F's have been scoring at passable level, overall.

i can't pin point it more closely on what is wrong and what is not as i have seen maybe 10 games or little more of edler this year.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

wouldnt edlers d partner also have on or about the same terrible plus/minus rating if it were in fact solely do to the forwards not scoring problem?

if you're on the ice more often when the other team scores then anyone else in the locker room its not bad luck its you being a poor player, as its quite likely the other 20 players feel you're the reason why their plus/minus isnt bettter or always worse when you're around

deviations from the norm are do to actual reasons not magic or voodooism

 

[InjuredChoker]

like edler has more points/60 than hamhuis and tanev. with edler, canucks actually get more shot attempts.

GF/60 for hamhuis and tanev, respectively: 2.69, 2.54

for edler: 1.27

 

[InjuredChoker]

wouldnt edlers d partner also have on or about the same terrible plus/minus rating if it were in fact solely do to the forwards not scoring problem?

if you're on the ice more often when the other team scores then anyone else in the locker room its not bad luck its you being a poor player, as its quite likely the other 20 players feel you're the reason why their plus/minus isnt bettter or always worse when you're around

deviations from the norm are do to actual reasons not magic or voodooism

his partner lately has been raph diaz but as he was just acquired via trade, the sample size is too small to tell anything.

before that it was garrison. the site still isn't working so can't see the difference with/without them.

similar thing happened with karlsson the year before he won the norris, it happened with subban. coburn and campbell last year/this year.

he has 5 years of track record of good to very good play; and half season of this level of play.

i find the randomness/bad luck to be the most likely explanation, as it's the goals/offense that is missing, not goals against/defense. an this has happened to many players in similar situation before and they have bounced back.

if there's something that he would do a lot differently, something that is missing from his game, something that he doesn't have or does bad and what couldn't be corrected, i would think it would be bad on edler and this displays his true level.

like with some other offensive D's whos game has declined because their skating, decision making, shot etc. have gone south; i haven't seen that from edler.

 

[InjuredChoker]

i would think edler is the guy at fault here if canucks would face significantly more shots and significantly less when he's on the ice; that is not the case. same with shot location; that is not the case either.

it's in the sh% and to smaller extent sv%.

if you think it's something that edler does wrong, i'd like to hear what did jakub kindl do so well on D that he had 5th best sv% last year among D. or brendan smith as he had 11th best.

 

[Henkka]

imo it's wrong to say offensive game is missing. he has point on over 50% of goals the canucks score when he's on the ice. they are getting fair amount of shots and though it's from little farther out on average than usual, it's no even close to being enough to explain why they aren't going in. offense hasn't been as good as usual but not missing.

goals for are missing.

Yeah, I mean the same thing. Those guys at Vancouver defence are pretty equal with ES Goals against. But when Edler is on the ice, team is just not scoring goals.

Like Edler's most common defensive partners have been Garrison and Bieksa at this season.

Edler 40 ES minus goals against
Garrison 41 ES minus goals against
Bieksa 42 ES minus goals against

but

Bieksa 45 ES plus goals for
Garrison 37 plus goals for
Edler 17 ES plus goals for

This is just a perfect example, how plusminus can be a terrible stat. Plusses are missing, but people are looking the stat, and think he is bad defensively, because he has so negative -23 rating.

I could think this is just a statistical fluke, that will be corrected by time.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

his partner lately has been raph diaz but as he was just acquired via trade, the sample size is too small to tell anything.

before that it was garrison. the site still isn't working so can't see the difference with/without them.

similar thing happened with karlsson the year before he won the norris, it happened with subban. coburn and campbell last year/this year.

he has 5 years of track record of good to very good play; and half season of this level of play.

i find the randomness/bad luck to be the most likely explanation, as it's the goals/offense that is missing, not goals against/defense. an this has happened to many players in similar situation before and they have bounced back.

if there's something that he would do a lot differently, something that is missing from his game, something that he doesn't have or does bad and what couldn't be corrected, i would think it would be bad on edler and this displays his true level.

like with some other offensive D's whos game has declined because their skating, decision making, shot etc. have gone south; i haven't seen that from edler.

bieksa is a plus 3
hamhuis is a plus 7
garrision is a minus 3
tanev is a plus 8
edler is a minus 23

to the best of my deductive logic edlers seems to be on the ice 8 times more often when a goal is scored against vancouver then any other single dman among their top 5.

now unless of course he is on the ice by himself as the only dman something seems to be going on here. is it that the forwards once they see alex jump over the boards collectively decide not to score untill next shift or worse they decide to all jump off the ice and let alex face a 5 on 1 situation against, cleary alex edler for one reaosn or another is not getting it done in his own end.

sure some of it can be attributed to the fact that guys like burrows havent scored all season or their is no goal support beyond kesler and the twins but those factors effect all dmen almost equally and yet the negative results are scewed so far against just one of them

i am not saying edler isnt a solid NHL dman but if we want to compare him to karlsson first few seasons in the nhl, well, erik was absolutely atrocious in his own end and thats why he was among the leagues worse in that stat

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Yeah, I mean the same thing. Those guys at Vancouver defence are pretty equal with ES Goals against. But when Edler is on the ice, team is just not scoring goals.

Like Edler's most common defensive partners have been Garrison and Bieksa at this season.

Edler 40 ES minus goals against
Garrison 41 ES minus goals against
Bieksa 42 ES minus goals against

but

Bieksa 45 ES plus goals for
Garrison 37 plus goals for
Edler 17 ES plus goals for

This is just a perfect example, how plusminus can be a terrible stat. Plusses are missing, but people are looking the stat, and think he is bad defensively, because he has so negative -23 rating.

I could think this is just a statistical fluke, that will be corrected by time.

maybe its alex's poor play tha is leading to so few ES goals for when he is on the ice as oppossed to it being everyone elses fault?

 

[Henkka]

maybe its alex's poor play tha is leading to so few ES goals for when he is on the ice as oppossed to it being everyone elses fault?

Could be. But like InjuredChoker wrote, Corsis won't back this theory.

Also in my scoring chance statistics (only one game against Vancouver) Edler was the best defenceman for Canucks creating chances. Chances will lead to goals, sooner or later.

Or is it easier to believe, that he has turned to be a bad offensive defenceman suddenly, when he has been one of the best producer in recent years?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Could be. But like InjuredChoker wrote, Corsis won't back this theory.

Also in my scoring chance statistics (only one game against Vancouver) Edler was the best defenceman for Canucks creating chances. Chances will lead to goals, sooner or later.

Or is it easier to believe, that he has turned to be a bad offensive defenceman suddenly, when he has been one of the best producer in recent years?

these advanced stats really are new to me so I prefer the look and watch test and when i watch him play he seems to struggle in his own more then any other canuck dman(i will admit i have only seen about a dozen or so of their games) and he seems to be out of sync offensively with his teammates(poor decisions, bad passes, late passes, poor shot choices etc)

 

[InjuredChoker]

bieksa is a plus 3
hamhuis is a plus 7
garrision is a minus 3
tanev is a plus 8
edler is a minus 23

to the best of my deductive logic edlers seems to be on the ice 8 times more often when a goal is scored against vancouver then any other single dman among their top 5.

now unless of course he is on the ice by himself as the only dman something seems to be going on here. is it that the forwards once they see alex jump over the boards collectively decide not to score untill next shift or worse they decide to all jump off the ice and let alex face a 5 on 1 situation against, cleary alex edler for one reaosn or another is not getting it done in his own end.

edler's GA is lower than what keith had when he won the norris, shea weber this year, lidström when he won the norris for the 7th time.

his GF is lower than what any player has had long-term, say for multiple seasons.

he has allowed more goals than other canucks D but it wouldn't show up on +/- if the offense was fine.

edler's GF/20 this year is 0.434. the previous 3 years it was 0.817.

GA/20 is 0.840. the previous 3 years it was 0.784.

so what is the bigger problem, canucks get scored on with edler or they can't score?

and why has that happened and why would one assume that he can't get it back?

sure some of it can be attributed to the fact that guys like burrows havent scored all season or their is no goal support beyond kesler and the twins but those factors effect all dmen almost equally and yet the negative results are scewed so far against just one of them

it's a sample size of half season. it would make more sense if he already didn't have 5 years of play when things like these didn't happen.

randomness like this has happened before. andy greene, cam fowler, pk. subban, brian campbell, scott hannan. to name a few.

all of them had low sh% and/or bad +/- compared to their teammates. all of them seem to be doing fine now or at least a lot better.

maybe its alex's poor play tha is leading to so few ES goals for when he is on the ice as oppossed to it being everyone elses fault?

1. what does he do wrong?

2. and what in that makes his forwards shoot at less than half of what they normally do in scoring areas? is that really on edler? what should edler do so canucks forwards would score on their shots? shots that are from similar location.

 

[InjuredChoker]

canucks caught a huge hot streak while edler was down. luongo was playing great, sedins were fine, kesler, kassian and co were scoring, no major player was injured etc.

edler came back around the time that h. sedin was injured iirc. d. sedin has never looked this bad to me. he's been awful.

so i think on the games edler has played, those plus/minuses wouldn't be as bad. meaning the difference in minuses isn't that big.

he was -3 against the montreal game a while back that i catched. that was good game from him but was -3; one bad mistake, went over to help his partner and left MTL player alone in front of the net and he scored. one - came from empty netter. one was when his partner blew a tire and it cause 2 on 1 with edler being the man back and in the end he accidentally kicked it into his own net.

catched the leafs game that was the last one before the break. last period was bad for him. poor decision making.

also he's been mostly with garrison as his partner who had struggled as he had to play his offside.

now with olympic break, i might have to watch the canuck highlights to see if edler pops up there consistently and not in a good way. though it doesn't tell everything as one of my points is that he's been unlucky, so one would actually expect that to happen a lot.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

edler's GA is lower than what keith had when he won the norris, shea weber this year, lidström when he won the norris for the 7th time.

his GF is lower than what any player has had long-term, say for multiple seasons.

he has allowed more goals than other canucks D but it wouldn't show up on +/- if the offense was fine.

edler's GF/20 this year is 0.434. the previous 3 years it was 0.817.

GA/20 is 0.840. the previous 3 years it was 0.784.

so what is the bigger problem, canucks get scored on with edler or they can't score?

and why has that happened and why would one assume that he can't get it back?



it's a sample size of half season. it would make more sense if he already didn't have 5 years of play when things like these didn't happen.

randomness like this has happened before. andy greene, cam fowler, pk. subban, brian campbell, scott hannan. to name a few.

all of them had low sh% and/or bad +/- compared to their teammates. all of them seem to be doing fine now or at least a lot better.



1. what does he do wrong?

2. and what in that makes his forwards shoot at less than half of what they normally do in scoring areas? is that really on edler? what should edler do so canucks forwards would score on their shots? shots that are from similar location.

do you really believe that canucks forwards are choosing to either
a) play bad defence solely when edler is on the ice or,
b) shoot less when edler is on the ice compared to when every other dman steps over the boards?

why would they consciously do that?

is it possible in those previous years edler was simply pulled along by a superior canucks team and now that they're not as good edler is being shown more in his true light?

maybe alex was simply the benefactor of good luck playing on a strong team(like a 4th line rookie who wins the cup in his first year vs ray bourque who had to play 20 seasons before he could win) and nothing more than that

 

[InjuredChoker]

i mean, edler has always had at times, somewhat questionable decision making in d-zone or when he takes off. risks like in pinches etc. skating has never been great. those annoying drop passes have always been in his game. first pass is good but never consistently great.

i haven't seen significant decline in those areas, granted my viewing of him are fairly limited.

one thing that has declined are the hits/mean streak. i wonder if it has to do with the shanabans he's had. destroyed staal's knee just last year at WC's and got suspended and was suspended in NHL this year, iirc.

but that really doesn't explain the lack of goals when he's on the ice.

well it won't be a problem unless wings trade for him; and i don't think they do unless gillis lowers the asking price significantly. i wouldn't pull the trigger if gillis wants 4 pieces (like 1st, tatar, smith and sheahan) or what many canucks fans seem to want from him.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

i mean, edler has always had at times, somewhat questionable decision making in d-zone or when he takes off. risks like in pinches etc. skating has never been great. those annoying drop passes have always been in his game. first pass is good but never consistently great.

i haven't seen significant decline in those areas, granted my viewing of him are fairly limited.

one thing that has declined are the hits/mean streak. i wonder if it has to do with the shanabans he's had. destroyed staal's knee just last year at WC's and got suspended and was suspended in NHL this year, iirc.

but that really doesn't explain the lack of goals when he's on the ice.

well it won't be a problem unless wings trade for him; and i don't think they do unless gillis lowers the asking price significantly. i wouldn't pull the trigger if gillis wants 4 pieces (like 1st, tatar, smith and sheahan) or what many canucks fans seem to want from him.

i wouldnt either but i wouldnt worry too much on what canuck fans are demanding as just 18 months ago they said it would take simmonds and couturier to land luongo or else they dont move him and look how well that turned out for them....

IF Gilles moves edler it will be to change the culture a little bit while addressing the lack of youth and depth upfront and in their organization not to add equally as good players ready to contribute today

 

[InjuredChoker]

do you really believe that canucks forwards are choosing to either
a) play bad defence solely when edler is on the ice or,
b) shoot less when edler is on the ice compared to when every other dman steps over the boards?

nope. canucks F's don't play bad D, the difference in goals allowed/defense is at least parly on edler; maybe even a lot. but the problem isn't the D, it's the offense.

canucks forwards are not shooting less. it they were, it could be pointed on edler; he doesn't do good job getting them them the puck, whether it's bad decision making or whatever.

they are getting as many shots with and without edler. from similar areas. they are just not going in. that's why i don't think it's mainly edler's fault. or fair to blame edler on that.

is it possible in those previous years edler was simply pulled along by a superior canucks team and now that they're not as good edler is being shown more in his true light?

maybe alex was simply the benefactor of good luck playing on a strong team(like a 4th line rookie who wins the cup in his first year vs ray bourque who had to play 20 seasons before he could win) and nothing more than that

yes, i think it's possible and at least some of his point totals are likely inflated bc of playing with sedins imo; but the difference shouldn't be this big.

he was basically top 2 dman; now based on the results, stats, he's like career AHLer playing way above his head. i don't think he was pulled along that much and really can't see legitimate case for it.

there hasn't been any big injury or else that would explain this either.

 

[Frk It]

yes, i think it's possible and at least some of his point totals are likely inflated bc of playing with sedins imo; but the difference shouldn't be this big.

he was basically top 2 dman; now based on the results, stats, he's like career AHLer playing way above his head. i don't think he was pulled along that much and really can't see legitimate case for it.

there hasn't been any big injury or else that would explain this either.

Wait..... What?

 

[CanadaIsIrrelevant]

VAN: Edler - DET: Franzen

This is just a rumor. I don't know the credibility for this but I'd like to just throw this out there. So here goes:

Source: The Fourth Period

The Detroit Red Wings have been long linked to Edler, and whispers around the NHL suggest the two teams continue to discuss a deal that could also involved Wings veteran Johan Franzen.

Franzen, 34, is in year five or an 11-year, $43.5 million contract, and carries a $3.954 cap hit. While he's making $5 million in actual salary this season through the 2015-16 campaign, his salary drops to $3.5 million in 2016-17, $2 million in 2017-18 and $1 million in the last two years of his contract.

Source: Hockeysverige.se - Swedish site

Detroit Red Wings jagar en ny back. Vancouver Canucks vill fylla på med en stark forward. Enligt The Fourth Period kan det utmynna i en trejd där Alexander Edler och Johan Franzén byter klubb.

Google translate: Detroit Red Wings chasing a new defenseman. Vancouver Canucks want to fill with a strong forward. According to The Fourth Period, it may result in a trade where Alexander Edler and Johan Franzen change club.

Eftersom Edler bara är 27 år och Franzén 34 år kommer Red Wings troligen att tvingas ge upp något mer för att kunna tillskansa sig backen från Östersund. The Fourth Period uppger att samtal mellan klubbarna pågår. Ett hinder är de hjärnskakningsproblem som Franzén dras med, problem som tvingade honom att lämna återbud till OS.

Google translate:Since Edler only 27 years old and 34 years Franzen, Red Wings probably be forced to give up any more in order to acquire the defenseman (Edler) from Östersund (Hometown). The Fourth Period report that talks between the clubs progress. One obstacle is the concussion problems that Franzen drawn with problems that forced him to cancel the Olympics.