Poll: If you had to decide now: Would you extend Kyle Dubas or let him walk ?

[ULF_55]

Maybe trade the core

Dubas has to be held accountable, he may be only responsible for Tavares in the double digits, he has had opportunity to change those players. But other than the Montreal fiasco by marner and Matthews, and the unfortunate Tavares injury, the best producers continue to be Matthews, marner, Nylander and Tavares with a brief appearance by Kerfoot.

O'Reilly may be the biggest playoffs pick-up in Dubas career. Now he may not be 2018-2019 O'Rielly but he was PPG last year in the playoffs.

This is likely the best post season team since Sundin was with the team. Maybe even Dougie?

Two keys this year, both are completely on Dubas: Goaltending and Coaching.

As fans how much would you have been willing to pay for a top 8 goaltender:

a) 1 first round pick
b) multiple first round picks
c) one of Matthews or marner (I could put in any other player but that would make it too easy to decide)
d) Knies, Liljegren and a first

 

[Confucius]

Losing to Tampa and announcing a Dubas extension will go over so well with Leaf nation. I am sure it will give Leaf fans more comfort and hope than the respect they gained in the handshake line last year. Then again, it is MLSEL.

If they don’t do well this year the future is looking grim and how can he build a better team with fewer draft picks going forward. He traded away 2 1sts this year, I would have obtained 2 1sts instead. That’s a swing of 4 1st round picks just there alone. Traded 1 last year and the year before. Team should be way better with 6 more 1st round picks in the system and that’s just over the last 2 seasons. Build through the draft, maybe if we are Boston it would be good to add a player on top of the team they have now.

 

[Osmows OReilly]

Let him walk of course. Not only has he had zero postseason success with the core he inherited and built around, he may have screwed the team in the long run trading picks for rentals that may not make much difference come playoff time (and that he won’t be able to resign in the offseason). We can and we will!

 

[ULF_55]

I know.

Imagine being the head and vision of a corporation that spins it's wheels for 5 years. The customers are giving this company feedback telling them what is wrong with the product. They do nothing but ignore the customers. Then, suddenly in the last year this head's contract, he scrambles together as much of what the customers demanded all along. The problem is because it was rushed together there are flaws (Not unlike our tending potentially). If the customers feel the product is better overall (We win) it works out. Does it mean that this person is the right person for the job? No. There is other dynamics to the product as well, like how much he pays for the production of the product (Our contracts). Do you trust that person still?

All I see is low bar fans with knee jerk reactions to anything and everything they perceive to be positive.

Well, obviously if they took the advice of "customers" they would have traded the entire team multiple times.

To me the only real question is goaltending and coaching.

I don't even think Cap is an issue at this point. By moving players without trade clauses they could have easily made any amount of space available. Any of the top 3 forwards without clauses could have been moved. Rielly could have been moved before his clauses. Those choices were made but moving them unless for a goaltender would not address the biggest question mark.

 

[Sypher04]

picked up a solid D but he's not close to some of the other D that were moved -Ekholm/Orlov/Chycrhum

- picked up a solid frwd but he's not a level he was or as good as some of the other mover - Meir/Kane

- the rest of the p/u are dime a dozen depth guys

To play devils advocate:

McCabe is not Ekholm or Chychrun level, granted, but he’s also only costing us 2M for this and 2 more years. He’s tremendous value for that cost and fills a clear need on D.

There is a reasonable argument to be made that ROR is a better pickup than Kane (who seemingly only wanted NYR anyway). ROR is younger, a Selke calibre defensive forward, a center, great on faceoffs, plays with grit, clutch/conn Smythe winner like Kane, and has shown since arriving here he is still a productive player. I think he fits the need on this team much better than Kane would have - for less cap space. Also, I think we have a reasonable chance of re-signing ROR this summer, whereas I’m not sure we would have been able to do so with Kane. Meier is clearly the best of the 3, but would have cost the most, and had the least potential of being retained beyond this season.

As for the other guys, we revamped our fourth line and I think it should be much more effective for us going forward. We have just been rotating through ineffective mixes on the 4th line all season looking for something to fit and it just wants happening. It’s not really that there’s anything special about Acciari, Lafferty specifically, but more that the impact they can have for us is more dramatic because our team has lacked players like them. They’ve also proven they can chip in some offense this season, both sitting with like 10g is solid.

 

[ULF_55]

If they don’t do well this year the future is looking grim and how can he build a better team with fewer draft picks going forward. He traded away 2 1sts this year, I would have obtained 2 1sts instead. That’s a swing of 4 1st round picks just there alone. Traded 1 last year and the year before. Team should be way better with 6 more 1st round picks in the system and that’s just over the last 2 seasons. Build through the draft, maybe if we are Boston it would be good to add a player on top of the team they have now.

They are only missing a 2025 first round pick.
There is a lot of time between now and June 2025.

 

[Sypher04]

Let him walk of course. Not only has he had zero postseason success with the core he inherited and built around, he may have screwed the team in the long run trading picks for rentals that may not make much difference come playoff time (and that he won’t be able to resign in the offseason). We can and we will!

Who did we acquire that we couldn’t retain in the off-season? Everyone he acquired is retainable (if they choose to be here) or already signed beyond this year.

ROR - probably will cost ~5M
Acciari - won’t get much more than he’s making
Lafferty - signed another year
McCabe - signed two more years at 2M
Schenn - won’t get much more than he’s making

 

[Confucius]

They are only missing a 2025 first round pick.
There is a lot of time between now and June 2025.

Yeah that is how they gloss it over, it’s not correct though. If the team manages to get 1st round picks as they did get 1 back. The point still is they should be collecting 1sts not giving them up. It’s still a swing of 6 1st round picks. Because he got one back it just means we would have had 7 instead of the 1.

 

[the real Fox mulder]

Holl is a useful player (in the right role) on a decent contract. I don’t see much upside to moving him if most upgrades would have cost too much

As for Perron and Acciari. Perron isn’t dealt viable at his full cap hit Detroit gave him, so we were never really an option there, and Acciari for all we know we were in on and he chose to go elsewhere. It’s hard to critique not making a move that we don’t know what actually available to us.

I’d move Kerfoot for an upgrade, but I’m not pushing him out the door either. Good player, very versatile, plays well for us in the post season usually. Lack of finish is a point of some frustration, but overall he clearly brings value imo.

This all said, Engvall 100% should have been moved on from earlier. Absolutely the wrong choice to keep him, but I’m glad they’ve realized that finally

Yea I happy that Dubas finally realized that you need more than skill to win a playoff series, but I think we can all agree that, that conclusion should had been made earlier like last offseason.


The three players I listed if were traded during last offseason, we would have had the cap space to sign Perron and Acciari ( I know it's easy said then done). I heard that Dubas chose to sign Jarnkrok instead of Acciari.

 

[Dragao6]

Sign him, 2/3 years
We replace him with who? If there was a clear upgrade ok but is there?
This is the best team we have taken into the playoff in a very long time
It’s on the players now not dubas. Previous years yes he didn’t pull the trigger on upgrades at deadline but he’s super young as a gm.
He’s learning as he goes, much like he is now recognizing that you can’t just build on talent but u need the grit also
He’s learning, done great with trades and signings, finding good cheap ufa
So a few more years to really determine if he’s an elite gm or not, would hate to give up on him early

 

[ULF_55]

Yeah that is how they gloss it over, it’s not correct though. If the team manages to get 1st round picks as they did get 1 back. The point still is they should be collecting 1sts not giving them up. It’s still a swing of 6 1st round picks. Because he got one back it just means we would have had 7 instead of the 1.

No that's just a fact.

What you are suggesting is purely speculation, and not fact and cannot be proven.

It is what you want, but is just your want not reality.

 

[Sypher04]

Yea I happy that Dubas finally realized that you need more than skill to win a playoff series, but I think we can all agree that, that conclusion should had been made earlier like last offseason.


The three players I listed if were traded during last offseason, we would have had the cap space to sign Perron and Acciari ( I know it's easy said then done). I heard that Dubas chose to sign Jarnkrok instead of Acciari.

I’ve heard people reference that. Realistically, no one probably knows. For all we know Dubas checked with Acciari’s camp before Jarnkrok and either his ask was too high or he had another destination in mind. I’d be cautious of believing most of the claims out there personally. I don’t think most anyone has any real idea. They are just speculating like the rest of us (or in some cases, purely fabricating)

It’s also worth note, if Dubas wanted to sign Acciari after signing Jarnkrok there was nothing stopping him from doing so

 

[thusk]

Dubas had been probabky best gm leafs had last 20

Burke never made the playoffs and the vast majority wanted to give him a lifetime contract . If Dubies turfed the majority of his supporters will turn on him or at least go quiet just like Burkes did ,

Dubie had a decent deadline but it's far from the overwhelming praise some fans are giving him

- picked up a solid D but he's not close to some of the other D that were moved -Ekholm/Orlov/Chycrhum

- picked up a solid frwd but he's not a level he was or as good as some of the other mover - Meir/Kane

- the rest of the p/u are dime a dozen depth guys

but but but he didn't give up any of our top prospects , we only have one and better players were moved and no one else gave up top prospects either

Dubie's deadline was decent but it could have been far far better

I think you just dont undestand how huge mccabe trade is... its easily in top 3 of best trade at deadline

Exemple for the same amount of money... leafs can resign ror at 5M and get a top 4 D in mccabe able to play a shutdown role against best opposite line at the same price than ekholm and 4th line player who will sign close of minimum like ZAR...

 

[Confucius]

Sign him, 2/3 years
We replace him with who? If there was a clear upgrade ok but is there?
This is the best team we have taken into the playoff in a very long time
It’s on the players now not dubas. Previous years yes he didn’t pull the trigger on upgrades at deadline but he’s super young as a gm.
He’s learning as he goes, much like he is now recognizing that you can’t just build on talent but u need the grit also
He’s learning, done great with trades and signings, finding good cheap ufa
So a few more years to really determine if he’s an elite gm or not, would hate to give up on him early

It is on Dubas, it’s sort of like the stock market, when to buy when to sell. My opinion his timing is incorrect, he didn’t improve enough to beat Boston, so it was a useless trading away future potential for not enough now anyway.

 

[Sypher04]

I love the deadline work, but I think you probably still have to wait and see what happens before you talk extension.

I think Dubas has done great work here to put us in a great position, but if goaltending implodes for example (which I don’t expect but could happen) then I think it’s harder to justify keeping him.

Hopefully we win and it’s all moot point anyway. I just wanna see us win

 

[Confucius]

No that's just a fact.

What you are suggesting is purely speculation, and not fact and cannot be proven.

It is what you want, but is just your want not reality.

What do you mean. I would keep my picks so it’s a fact I would have had 4 more 1sts over the last 2 years. I would have traded Mathews, pretty sure I would have gotten at least 2 1sts. So that is the 6. We will see if we have little playoff success and Mathews ends up walking next year and we get nothing for him.

As I say it’s only my opinion and what I would have done. Maybe I’m wrong.

 

[Sypher04]

What do you mean. I would keep my picks so it’s a fact I would have had 4 more 1sts over the last 2 years. I would have traded Mathews, pretty sure I would have gotten at least 2 1sts. So that is the 6. We will see if we have little playoff success and Mathews ends up walking next year and we get nothing for him.

As I say it’s only my opinion and what I would have done. Maybe I’m wrong.

With all due respect, trading Matthews for picks would be and would have been monumentally stupid

 

[Confucius]

With all due respect, trading Matthews for picks would be and would have been monumentally stupid

We were talking picks so I would get 2 1sts plus players. Ofcourse Back to back rockets would get more than just 2 draft picks

 

[All Mod Cons]

If these guys cannot get it done, then they are the one at fault. Dubas has put together a team that has been good enough to win many rounds. The guys on the ice are the ones who have not got it done. How about we put some of this on the players? Has Dubas made mistakes? Yes. But he has also built the best teams this franchise has seen since expansion.

To be fair, if they don't win many rounds, then the GM hasn't out together a team good enough to win many rounds. It's an oxymoron.

Please bring him back. I have hated some moves he made early on as much as anyone, but he has learned. From all appearances our drafts under him have been quite good despite little picks, and his salary cap machinations have been excellent.

I like Keefe, but another 1st round exit and we might have to change that up though.

I think he has definitely learned. But I think his early moves did a huge amount of damage. Hard to crawl back from.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Burke never made the playoffs and the vast majority wanted to give him a lifetime contract . If Dubies turfed the majority of his supporters will turn on him or at least go quiet just like Burkes did ,

Dubie had a decent deadline but it's far from the overwhelming praise some fans are giving him

- picked up a solid D but he's not close to some of the other D that were moved -Ekholm/Orlov/Chycrhum

- picked up a solid frwd but he's not a level he was or as good as some of the other mover - Meir/Kane

- the rest of the p/u are dime a dozen depth guys

but but but he didn't give up any of our top prospects , we only have one and better players were moved and no one else gave up top prospects either

Dubie's deadline was decent but it could have been far far better

I'm surprised, or maybe I'm not, how many people have been absolutely fine with trading Sandin. He had waves and waves of fans while he was a Leaf.

 

[4thline]

To be fair, if they don't win many rounds, then the GM hasn't out together a team good enough to win many rounds. It's an oxymoron.

Not to be fair, to have a completely ignorant and immature of the results of team sports.

The better team on any given day doesn't always win, and the better team doesn't always play better on any given day.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Well, obviously if they took the advice of "customers" they would have traded the entire team multiple times.

To me the only real question is goaltending and coaching.

I don't even think Cap is an issue at this point. By moving players without trade clauses they could have easily made any amount of space available. Any of the top 3 forwards without clauses could have been moved. Rielly could have been moved before his clauses. Those choices were made but moving them unless for a goaltender would not address the biggest question mark.

It's a tricky one because they have their core (and best players), maybe sans Tavares playing one type of game. And then the rest of the group playing a different type of game. Hopefully it meshes together.

I personally think you only need 3 game breaking forwards and the rest of the group playing to your identity. Pair two together and then the other one drives his own line. So ideally we'd have Matthews, Marner, Nylander and then disperse Tavares' money accordingly.

Having an 11mil 2nd line centre is bold to say the least.

 

[ShaneFalco]

The only thing this team has been missing in his tenure is playoff success. They have broken almost every other franchise record. You cannot just choose to look at one side. Yes, ultimate success means a cup, but if they guy has built the best team possible and the core players piss themselves at every opportunity to take the next step, I'm looking at the players more than the GM.

I have a hard time blaming Dubas. So many things went against him with the fixed cap... really bad timing.

You think if we keep the same team and change the GM we have different success?

Players need to get it done.

The Leafs could out early in the first round for 3more years and the excuses would remain.
Let's not forget that Shanny basically said they lack a killer instinct, don't stick.up for eachother (gutlless)etc. And last year was the only time in.the last 4 or so.where they showed they belong in the playoffs.

 

[Osmows OReilly]

Who did we acquire that we couldn’t retain in the off-season? Everyone he acquired is retainable (if they choose to be here) or already signed beyond this year.

ROR - probably will cost ~5M
Acciari - won’t get much more than he’s making
Lafferty - signed another year
McCabe - signed two more years at 2M
Schenn - won’t get much more than he’s making

I can’t see us retaining Acciari, Schenn, and ROR if we’re resigning Matthews and Nylander and also giving Bunting and Kampf a raise.

 

[thewave]

Well, obviously if they took the advice of "customers" they would have traded the entire team multiple times.

To me the only real question is goaltending and coaching.

I don't even think Cap is an issue at this point. By moving players without trade clauses they could have easily made any amount of space available. Any of the top 3 forwards without clauses could have been moved. Rielly could have been moved before his clauses. Those choices were made but moving them unless for a goaltender would not address the biggest question mark.

I think that's disingenuous to the fans that wanted moderate changes all along. I seldomly ever read people calling for the trade of AM WN MM JT etc. They did call to shore up the net and the D. They also pushed for getting some elements that make us tougher to play against. That's been the more mainline traditional fans opinion that I have observed here.

Add: Absolutely the coaching has been suspect, but that's roster management to me. I don't really know what he could have done with player trades and cap. Something different that allowed us to win a round or two would have been nice.

It's been a long and tiresome process of losing in the first round with a core that should be winning most 1st rounds and at least a second round or two. Simply put, Kyle Dubas mismanaged the cap and the roster delivering a product that did not achieve any success come the playoffs for over 5 consecutive years.

I will not support an extension to a man that's team does not hit the ECF. That's the bar for me personally.