Playoffs: whom to cheer, whom to jeer

[Gniwder]

I'm not comparing GMs, I'm talking exclusively about Ken Holland.

Abby's contract today is not currently weighing down the team, but it did for many years, and that still has an impact on this team today, from those years. A lot of Holland's decisions in his final years resulted in players and contracts that we no longer see on CapFriendly today, but are nevertheless still having an impact.

Having a shitty roster means better draft picks. I don't see how any of those contracts (aside from Abby's $1M for 2 seasons) impacts the team now.

Zadina, Cholo, and Svech busting is a way bigger issue. If Kenny had hit on even one of them, the team would have made the playoffs this season.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

He walked away for Yzerman… Edmonton couldn’t do anything right until he got there. Sorry gang you’re reaching. Him being involved in winning for 30+ years isn’t lucky guys. It is because he is a good talent evaluator and manager of people. His biggest impact in Edmonton has been fixing the culture. Not really debatable now that the impact was massive.

You can argue somebody else would have but they didn’t. Holland did do those things and he warned of the cliff we were approaching starting in 2014. I guess if he takes over Buffalo next it will be the real challenge…

Fixing the culture?

He has Evander Kane and Corey Perry on the same team, my guy.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Abby's gonna cost the team $1M for the next 2 seasons, but at this point Copp and Holl contracts weigh down the team more than Kenny's last remaining contract.

Still feeling the impact of those bad draft picks though.

There was also a pretty big argument at the time when we were in the basement and not trying to be competitive or hit the cap that buying down Abdelkader's contract didn't make any sense. Send him to Robidas Island with LTIR on his degenerative knee. Had you done that for even one year we would be exiting those cap implications.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Fixing the culture?

He has Evander Kane and Corey Perry on the same team, my guy.

This is hockey not the Boy Scouts. We have had shitty people on all of our cup winning teams.

Edmonton had McDavid and the gang before he showed up. He hasn't been flawless by any means, no GM is. But he took a team that had been to the playoffs what once since the Pronger miracle run team that ended Yzerman's career and has consistently put them in the playoffs and now a Finals trip. He balanced the egos around the team and ownership and did get a winner on the ice. We can look at the tweaks as already in place, but I know Edmonton was a disaster before he showed up. They are now in the Cup finals, that to me for those that point out a lot of those pieces are in place, points to him fixing what wasn't working around them and fostering a better environment. Which is a big part of management in all walks of life.

 

[DoMakc]

Fixing the culture?

He has Evander Kane and Corey Perry on the same team, my guy.

Isn‘t Kane on his best behavior since ever? Sounds like a good culture in place that can absorb a shithead like him

 

[Winger98]

I'm pulling for Holland and the Oilers. Honestly, I've pulled for the Oilers since the late90s, and I don't mind pulling for them now. Holland wrapping up his tenure with the Oilers with a cup would be nice

 

[Snuggs]

This is hockey not the Boy Scouts. We have had shitty people on all of our cup winning teams.

Edmonton had McDavid and the gang before he showed up. He hasn't been flawless by any means, no GM is. But he took a team that had been to the playoffs what once since the Pronger miracle run team that ended Yzerman's career and has consistently put them in the playoffs and now a Finals trip. He balanced the egos around the team and ownership and did get a winner on the ice. We can look at the tweaks as already in place, but I know Edmonton was a disaster before he showed up. They are now in the Cup finals, that to me for those that point out a lot of those pieces are in place, points to him fixing what wasn't working around them and fostering a better environment. Which is a big part of management in all walks of life.

He has to get credit for firing the coach mid-season or early season. The Oilers were off the rails early. Even more credit if it leads to a Stanley cup.

I'm not the biggest Holland lover or hater, but I'll acknowledge he's been dealt some really good situations most GMs in the league never have a chance of stepping into, that's also not his fault and he's done something really right to get those chances.

 

[Gniwder]

There was also a pretty big argument at the time when we were in the basement and not trying to be competitive or hit the cap that buying down Abdelkader's contract didn't make any sense. Send him to Robidas Island with LTIR on his degenerative knee. Had you done that for even one year we would be exiting those cap implications.

I remember, because I correctly predicted Stevie would do it anyways. It's real money vs salary cap.

$1M won't make a difference.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

I'd like to see Paul Maurice win a cup, he is 0-2 in cup finals. Due.

 

[dj4aces]

I'd prefer to see Florida win, but only because it'd be their first Cup in franchise history. I'm not gonna go out of my way to say screw the Oilers though, because I'd also like to see McDavid win a Cup.

 

[Henkka]

This is hockey not the Boy Scouts. We have had shitty people on all of our cup winning teams.

Edmonton had McDavid and the gang before he showed up. He hasn't been flawless by any means, no GM is. But he took a team that had been to the playoffs what once since the Pronger miracle run team that ended Yzerman's career and has consistently put them in the playoffs and now a Finals trip. He balanced the egos around the team and ownership and did get a winner on the ice. We can look at the tweaks as already in place, but I know Edmonton was a disaster before he showed up. They are now in the Cup finals, that to me for those that point out a lot of those pieces are in place, points to him fixing what wasn't working around them and fostering a better environment. Which is a big part of management in all walks of life.

Yeah, if something Ken Holland knows, it's the team environment.

Like those messy days are really gone, and the guys seem to be on same paper.

There was also a pretty big argument at the time when we were in the basement and not trying to be competitive or hit the cap that buying down Abdelkader's contract didn't make any sense. Send him to Robidas Island with LTIR on his degenerative knee. Had you done that for even one year we would be exiting those cap implications.

Abdelkader was healthy and wanted to play. He still played 3 years after the buyout in Switzerland, and was USA Captain at 2021 World Championships. Participated also at 2022 Olympics. Think those are big things on his career, and forcing him to "artificial" LTIR would have been ugly move, which won't represent Red Wings classy organization.

 

[RabidBadger]

But last 5 years were terrible, so we all must hate him for eternity? That is some serious "what have you done for me lately" mentality right there.

If you eschew the what have you done for me lately mentality, discussing sports is not a good activity to engage in

 

[FMichael]

I'm going to admit about holding some bitterness towards Kenny and how this team was left in shambles...That said I'm rooting for FLA.

 

[dalem177]

I'm for the Oilers because the Florida Headlocks annoy me. No logic there, just sportsfan pettiness.

 

[Henkka]

I'll celebrate it for Kenny, if Oilers will win.

Holland would retire as the best GM since 1998 to 2024.

4 Stanley Cups as a GM, and no one has more.

And in two different organizations.

Also, bringing the Cup to Canada is one kind of a miracle, which hasn't happened for 31 years.

Thanks to weak Canadian dollar, taxes, cold weather, for whatever fake reason there usually is on the media flying, he could be the master to rise over all damn excusions, and bring the Cup back to Canada.

That would be a huge stamp for his career, and prefectly right time to retire.

 

[GarlicbreadTB]

Barkov is like one of my favourite non Red Wings players so would be cool if he captained his team to a cup. Also I always had a soft spot for Ekman-Larsson.

 

[jaster]

Having a shitty roster means better draft picks. I don't see how any of those contracts (aside from Abby's $1M for 2 seasons) impacts the team now.

Asset management. Prospects are important, but when you poorly manage your assets you are liable to experience a snowball effect of consequences. I'm not terribly interested in re-litigating Holland's final years and mapping out the impacts of all the decisions he made; contracts that blocked better opportunities for the future, lack of draft picks coming back in trades, etc... it's mostly things that could have better set up Detroit for the future (read: now) but instead never happened at all. Collectively, those things affect a franchise for at least what amounts to an entire hockey career, even if they are not tangible and difficult to see.

Zadina, Cholo, and Svech busting is a way bigger issue. If Kenny had hit on even one of them, the team would have made the playoffs this season.

Sure, but the draft is more of a crapshoot. The decision to sign Abdelkader wasn't a crapshoot, it was just crap.... deliberate and incompetent crap.

 

[jaster]

I think you are romanticizing Holland's kneecapping at this point. He clearly didn't find the right solutions to a tough problem, but a lot of his worst decisions were made at a time when we were going to be bad no matter what. We were already summersaulting down the north face of the Eiger. If your argument is that we should have sold off everything earlier, we are having a discussion about ownership as much as Holland.

In terms of what Holland actually did to hold back the rebuild, the conversation starts and ends with the really bad drafting towards the end of his tenure.

Like I said before.... I don't buy the "following ownership orders" argument. Even if it's true, it doesn't matter to me. You're the guy in the seat. If I'm giving you credit for winning (which I have to guess is also following ownership orders), then I am compelled to criticize you for the kneecapping too. If a GM doesn't want that criticism, then step away sooner and let someone else take the blame.

Excusing an NHL GM for the poor decisions he makes because he has a boss is strange to me. I mean, do we think Holland was making all these decisions while gritting his teeth and thinking, 'god damn Mike Ilitch, if I were the owner...." Nah. He was in lockstep and agreed with the plan, we all know that's true.

The drafting was bad, but it's not even remotely the beginning and end of the conversation, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing all this

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Like I said before.... I don't buy the "following ownership orders" argument. Even if it's true, it doesn't matter to me. You're the guy in the seat. If I'm giving you credit for winning (which I have to guess is also following ownership orders), then I am compelled to criticize you for the kneecapping too. If a GM doesn't want that criticism, then step away sooner and let someone else take the blame.

Excusing an NHL GM for the poor decisions he makes because he has a boss is strange to me. I mean, do we think Holland was making all these decisions while gritting his teeth and thinking, 'god damn Mike Ilitch, if I were the owner...." Nah. He was in lockstep and agreed with the plan, we all know that's true.

The drafting was bad, but it's not even remotely the beginning and end of the conversation, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing all this

Are you suggesting that keeping the playoff streak alive for an owner dying of cancer who was trying to develop a publicly subsidized arena "district" was Holland's decision?

The only way to radically have changed the current position of the team (which is really the heart of the matter) is to have traded Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Lidstrom and maybe even Franzen, while they still had tread on their tires like a normal rebuilding franchise. The depth of our rebuild is a function of that. Our refusal to do so is the proximate cause of our current predicament. Not Abby's stupid contract, not running Cleary back (season after season), not Weiss, not Erik Cole, not Fabian f***ing Brunnstrom, not leaving kids in the AHL "too long." We are where we are because we didn't have the stones to move the best players in the organization. You say that decision is on Holland alone. I say it is on the Ilitch family. If you think I am wrong, watch what happens to Pittsburgh if they don't move on from Crosby, Letang and Malkin.

The next biggest cause (and something within Holland's general control) was our drafting.

 

[jkutswings]

Are you suggesting that keeping the playoff streak alive for an owner dying of cancer who was trying to develop a publicly subsidized arena "district" was Holland's decision?

The only way to radically have changed the current position of the team (which is really the heart of the matter) is to have traded Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Lidstrom and maybe even Franzen, while they still had tread on their tires like a normal rebuilding franchise. The depth of our rebuild is a function of that. Our refusal to do so is the proximate cause of our current predicament. Not Abby's stupid contract, not running Cleary back (season after season), not Weiss, not Erik Cole, not Fabian f***ing Brunnstrom, not leaving kids in the AHL "too long." We are where we are because we didn't have the stones to move the best players in the organization. You say that decision is on Holland alone. I say it is on the Ilitch family. If you think I am wrong, watch what happens to Pittsburgh if they don't move on from Crosby, Letang and Malkin.

The next biggest cause (and something within Holland's general control) was our drafting.

I wholeheartedly agree with the topic, and the biggest reason I walked away from the Wings for several years was their refusal to sell off pieces while they still had value.

But it doesn't have to be an either/or. I can acknowledge that ownership told Holland to either keep the streak or leave...while still saying that Holland was a chump for not responding to that ultimatum by leaving.

Towing a stupid company line is on both ownership and the front office.

 

[jaster]

Are you suggesting that keeping the playoff streak alive for an owner dying of cancer who was trying to develop a publicly subsidized arena "district" was Holland's decision?

The only way to radically have changed the current position of the team (which is really the heart of the matter) is to have traded Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Lidstrom and maybe even Franzen, while they still had tread on their tires like a normal rebuilding franchise. The depth of our rebuild is a function of that. Our refusal to do so is the proximate cause of our current predicament. Not Abby's stupid contract, not running Cleary back (season after season), not Weiss, not Erik Cole, not Fabian f***ing Brunnstrom, not leaving kids in the AHL "too long." We are where we are because we didn't have the stones to move the best players in the organization. You say that decision is on Holland alone. I say it is on the Ilitch family. If you think I am wrong, watch what happens to Pittsburgh if they don't move on from Crosby, Letang and Malkin.

The next biggest cause (and something within Holland's general control) was our drafting.

I'm saying that giving Holland a pass for his poor decisions while giving him credit for his good ones is not a tack I'm willing to take. If some of you choose that route, more power to you. I don't care about ownership mandates though. Again, if Holland was making those decisions against his better judgement because he was ordered to, he should have left. Like @jkutswings said, he's otherwise a chump.

I disagree with the notion that in order to have avoided the current position the franchise is in, we'd have had to trade Hank/Dats/Lids/Mule. There's a huge valley between that and what Holland did. And while you're willing to write off poor asset management as having no effect on the long-term status of the franchise, and look at this as an extreme binary situation, I think there's a lot of gray area where Holland could have done better at the end.

 

[DoMakc]

Red Wings drafted like shit since 2005. And it is not only Wright, Nill was not better. You don't need to rebuild if you draft Rask in 2005, Petry in 2006, Josi in 2008, O'Reilly in 2009 and so on. You don't need to hit every year, you just make sure you don't miss every year.

 

[Winger98]

Red Wings drafted like shit since 2005. And it is not only Wright, Nill was not better. You don't need to rebuild if you draft Rask in 2005, Petry in 2006, Josi in 2008, O'Reilly in 2009 and so on. You don't need to hit every year, you just make sure you don't miss every year.

considering the run we had drafting...a dry spell was bound to happen. I mean, look where we pulled Zetterberg and Datsyuk from. Franzen was a 3rd rounder. We pulled Draper for a buck. Pillaged eastern europe/Russia and Sweden for our first couple of cups. I know we want to chalk it up to the greatness of Hakan but there is a ton of luck involved.

And while Nil was part of that dry spell here, look at what he's picked up in Dallas. And I remember when people were calling his tenure in Dallas a failure. Basically the same people have been in charge of Tampa sans Yzerman, and their drafting seems to have dried up a bit.

This isn't to absolve people of all responsibility, some guys seem to genuinely suck at it (Tyler wright). But it also feels like there's a lot of voodoo with it. When it goes well, you find reasons for it going well. When it goes to crap, you catch the blame because you suck.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I'm saying that giving Holland a pass for his poor decisions while giving him credit for his good ones is not a tack I'm willing to take. If some of you choose that route, more power to you. I don't care about ownership mandates though. Again, if Holland was making those decisions against his better judgement because he was ordered to, he should have left. Like @jkutswings said, he's otherwise a chump.

I disagree with the notion that in order to have avoided the current position the franchise is in, we'd have had to trade Hank/Dats/Lids/Mule. There's a huge valley between that and what Holland did. And while you're willing to write off poor asset management as having no effect on the long-term status of the franchise, and look at this as an extreme binary situation, I think there's a lot of gray area where Holland could have done better at the end.

Well this begs the question of what specifically would have occurred differently had Holland not made his "bad decisions." For example, but for the Abby contract, what specifically happens? Does Stamkos pick up the phone? But for the rolling Cleary contracts, what specifically happens? Does Suter decide he doesn't want to play with Parise? Do we draft O'Reilly instead of Ferraro? Norris or Thomas instead of Rasmussen? What is this alternative universe you speak of where every thing is hunky dory or at least no worse than what actually happened.

I think Holland made multiple, objectively bad decisions in isolation. I am not arguing that Abby's contract was good or even reasonable. To me, however, it is an issue of causation. Those bad decisions did not cause our current situation. We were destine to be very bad because we didn't strip it down while we still could. Call me deterministic.

 

[Henkka]

Team was anyways going down, few moves made better would have not changed the big picture.

When Dats, Zeta, Lids and Kronner are gone, your era of success is over.