Playoffs: whom to cheer, whom to jeer

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Team was anyways going down, few moves made better would have not changed the big picture.

When Dats, Zeta, Lids and Kronner are gone, your era of success is over.

Obviously when 3 players of that caliber are gone the era of peak success is over. But it's a false assumption to say nothing really would've changed.

The Wings haven't made the playoffs in 8 seasons. They haven't seen the second round in over a decade. If Holland hadn't left such a deep hole behind him, you really don't think the Wings would be in a better spot by now?

Bad contracts, overly loyal to players, bad drafting, and let's not forget Holland was desperate to keep Babcock in Detroit for five more years. Thankfully that didn't happen and Holland also took his drafting genius Wright with him to Edmonton.

 

[jaster]

Well this begs the question of what specifically would have occurred differently had Holland not made his "bad decisions." For example, but for the Abby contract, what specifically happens? Does Stamkos pick up the phone? But for the rolling Cleary contracts, what specifically happens? Does Suter decide he doesn't want to play with Parise? Do we draft O'Reilly instead of Ferraro? Norris or Thomas instead of Rasmussen? What is this alternative universe you speak of where every thing is hunky dory or at least no worse than what actually happened.

I think Holland made multiple, objectively bad decisions in isolation. I am not arguing that Abby's contract was good or even reasonable. To me, however, it is an issue of causation. Those bad decisions did not cause our current situation. We were destine to be very bad because we didn't strip it down while we still could. Call me deterministic.

I cannot say specifically what Holland would or could have done had he not made so many poor decisions. What I do know is that when you sign players to bad contracts, and don't trade away assets to start a rebuild, you limit the possibilities of eventually having a successful rebuild, or at least kick the can down the road. There were a litany of players in the 3/4/5 years prior to the start of the rebuild that could have been flipped for assets. Including Abdelkader, had he not been signed to such a ludicrous contract.

The drafting was bad, I don't think anyone disagrees with that, but that was certainly not the only component that got Detroit to where it is today.

I'm really having a hard time seeing how anyone can believe that, short of trading Lids/Hank/Dats/Mule, there was nothing Ken Holland could have done differently in his final years to help the future of the franchise and help set this team up for better success today. When Yzerman came on board we were all talking about what a big roster/contract mess he had to clean up from Holland's tenure, what a big hole he had to climb out of. I honestly don't recall any push-back on that idea, from you or others, but maybe I'm misremembering.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I cannot say specifically what Holland would or could have done had he not made so many poor decisions. What I do know is that when you sign players to bad contracts, and don't trade away assets to start a rebuild, you limit the possibilities of eventually having a successful rebuild, or at least kick the can down the road. There were a litany of players in the 3/4/5 years prior to the start of the rebuild that could have been flipped for assets. Including Abdelkader, had he not been signed to such a ludicrous contract.

The drafting was bad, I don't think anyone disagrees with that, but that was certainly not the only component that got Detroit to where it is today.

I'm really having a hard time seeing how anyone can believe that, short of trading Lids/Hank/Dats/Mule, there was nothing Ken Holland could have done differently in his final years to help the future of the franchise and help set this team up for better success today. When Yzerman came on board we were all talking about what a big roster/contract mess he had to clean up from Holland's tenure, what a big hole he had to climb out of. I honestly don't recall any push-back on that idea, from you or others, but maybe I'm misremembering.

So we are where we are because we didn't trade Abby for a 2nd or 3rd round pick before he hit free agency? That is what you managed to come up with? Really? You still haven't explained the impact of these bad contracts on the rebuild. How exactly have they set us back? It certainly wasn't preventing us from signing better UFAs. The better ones weren't even picking up the phone to talk with Holland. Moreover, the guys we signed were so bad that you can't reasonably argue that they actually helped us win games that we shouldn't have (thus destroying the tank).

No, I am not buying that our failure to make a couple of half-assed moves to acquire mid-round draft picks explains why we are where we are at this point. If you wanted to genuinely kick start the rebuild both in terms of standings and draft capital, you needed to move the assets who had the ability to return first-round picks. We all know who those players were. I don't recall a ton of people banging the table to move those players to start a full-on rebuild.

 

[jkutswings]

Briefly returning to the actual topic...

Edmonton got goalied. And I expect Florida to play better in Game 2.

 

[Air Budd Dwyer]

Briefly returning to the actual topic...

Edmonton got goalied. And I expect Florida to play better in Game 2.

I don’t think there’s any way Florida loses this series. I’m certainly not rooting for them but they’re just built for playoff hockey.

 

[DamonDRW]

I don’t think there’s any way Florida loses this series. I’m certainly not rooting for them but they’re just built for playoff hockey.

Indeed. Excellent D including the last pairing, Vezina level goalie, forwards are big, fast, and tough with clear 1C that happens to be the best two-way center. They have everything you can ask for.

The last SC winning teams that were similarly built are probably LA or Blackhawks in their first SC win.

 

[odin1981]

Indeed. Excellent D including the last pairing, Vezina level goalie, forwards are big, fast, and tough with clear 1C that happens to be the best two-way center. They have everything you can ask for.

The last SC winning teams that were similarly built are probably LA or Blackhawks in their first SC win.

Chara, Bergeron, Rask Boston but better skating I'd who they remind me of.

 

[14ari13]

I don't want Oilers to win, but I want Holland to win.

Can they swap GMs during the series?

 

[Ulysses31]

Indeed. Excellent D including the last pairing, Vezina level goalie, forwards are big, fast, and tough with clear 1C that happens to be the best two-way center. They have everything you can ask for.

The last SC winning teams that were similarly built are probably LA or Blackhawks in their first SC win.

also they good at spamming stuff that would often be penlaties in reg season

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

If you want to see what Yzerman is trying to build, it's a variation on this Florida team.

 

[KJoe88]

Ugh Florida is actually going to win…

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

Florida going to hopefully sweep the Oilers and I'm all in for it.

I would be absolutely gutted to see KH fail upwards into another cup winning roster.

Oilers barely beat a Vancouver team that got tagged with injuries and their best forward deciding he doesn't need to show up in May.

 

[Winger98]

also they good at spamming stuff that would often be penlaties in reg season

it's not like this is a new method, though. We were kind of like that in the mid-late90s, the Ducks were like that, the Kings, the Bruins, the blues were kind of like that. Our cup contending teams in the past 30 years were some pretty damn tough teams. I don't see it as a bad thing.

But I'm also kind of turned off by the hockey product we have now. Everyone bemoans the dead puck era, but I do miss some of the physicality of it. There are times where I watch a game and I see a guy dipsy doodle and I long to see someone like Vladdy or Kasparitis plant the guy.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

it's not like this is a new method, though. We were kind of like that in the mid-late90s, the Ducks were like that, the Kings, the Bruins, the blues were kind of like that. Our cup contending teams in the past 30 years were some pretty damn tough teams. I don't see it as a bad thing.

But I'm also kind of turned off by the hockey product we have now. Everyone bemoans the dead puck era, but I do miss some of the physicality of it. There are times where I watch a game and I see a guy dipsy doodle and I long to see someone like Vladdy or Kasparitis plant the guy.

80s level scoring without 80s level hitting is just soccer on fast forward.

 

[jaster]

Can't stand Tkachuk, but go Florida. Would rather he win than Perry/Kane/Holland. Plus I forgot how much I like Barkov. Hope he's ok for game 3.

 

[Gniwder]

If you want to see what Yzerman is trying to build, it's a variation on this Florida team.

You mean like a smaller softer version?

Can't stand Tkachuk, but go Florida. Would rather he win than Perry/Kane/Holland. Plus I forgot how much I like Barkov. Hope he's ok for game 3.

Remember when people here laughed at FLA for "overpaying"?

 

[SantosHalper]

You mean like a smaller softer version?

We are not a finished product yet, it's a different story 3-4 "Cleveland's" later.

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

We are not a finished product yet, it's a different story 3-4 "Cleveland's" later.

Not to mention Kasper, Mazur, Savage, James, MBN (fingers crossed), and so on. FLA's success should really help people see the value in these gritty, high compete players.

Not to mention high end goaltending prospects.

 

[Gniwder]

We are not a finished product yet, it's a different story 3-4 "Cleveland's" later.

The Toledo will really be tough to play against.

Not to mention Kasper, Mazur, Savage, James, MBN (fingers crossed), and so on. FLA's success should really help people see the value in these gritty, high compete players.

Yeah, watch out NHL, we'll gonna throw a bunch of 180 pounders out there!

You realize that FLA has skill players with grit, right? Tkachuck never spent time in the AHL, Reinhart 3 games (plus one season of WHL), Barkov no AHL games, Bennet no AHL games. On top of that, they have some size with Barkov at 215 and Tkachuck at 206 lbs.

Somehow I doubt they're too concerned about playing against 180lb 0.5 ppg AHLers.

 

[FMichael]

I don’t think there’s any way Florida loses this series. I’m certainly not rooting for them but they’re just built for playoff hockey.

Indeed and I’ll be happy for Paul Maurice.

 

[SantosHalper]

Yeah, watch out NHL, we'll gonna throw a bunch of 180 pounders out there!

You realize that FLA has skill players with grit, right? Tkachuck never spent time in the AHL, Reinhart 3 games (plus one season of WHL), Barkov no AHL games, Bennet no AHL games. On top of that, they have some size with Barkov at 215 and Tkachuck at 206 lbs.

Somehow I doubt they're too concerned about playing against 180lb 0.5 ppg AHLers.

You don't believe in development?

What our kids weight now is irrelevant, they are still bunch of 19-21 year olds. Mid/late round picks are mid/late rounds picks for a reason, they obviously take longer to develop. Kasper 192 lbs and Danielson 187 lbs at the age of 20 and 19. When they are 26-28 years old, reaching 195-205 lbs is more than possible. If we get MBN at the draft, that's another kid pushing 200-205 soon.

What does AHL time has to do with this? In Detroit everybody starts in AHL, like it or not and same thing happened in Tampa, when Yzerman was running things. Only Injuries can change those plans.

Forsling, 110 AHL games, 2 seasons as 6/7th D in Chicago and full time in AHL still at the age of 23, before becoming what he is now. Montour 118 AHL games, Verhaeghe 211 AHL games, Rodrigues 128 AHL games. There are many roads to Stanley cup finals.

 

[GarlicbreadTB]

Can't stand Tkachuk, but go Florida. Would rather he win than Perry/Kane/Holland. Plus I forgot how much I like Barkov. Hope he's ok for game 3.

Out of the Tkachuk's I don't mind Matthew as much as his dumbass brother in Ottawa.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

You don't believe in development?

What our kids weight now is irrelevant, they are still bunch of 19-21 year olds. Mid/late round picks are mid/late rounds picks for a reason, they obviously take longer to develop. Kasper 192 lbs and Danielson 187 lbs at the age of 20 and 19. When they are 26-28 years old, reaching 195-205 lbs is more than possible. If we get MBN at the draft, that's another kid pushing 200-205 soon.

What does AHL time has to do with this? In Detroit everybody starts in AHL, like it or not and same thing happened in Tampa, when Yzerman was running things. Only Injuries can change those plans.

Forsling, 110 AHL games, 2 seasons as 6/7th D in Chicago and full time in AHL still at the age of 23, before becoming what he is now. Montour 118 AHL games, Verhaeghe 211 AHL games, Rodrigues 128 AHL games. There are many roads to Stanley cup finals.

I agree that their are many paths

Though that's not the argurnent I think he was saying.. Florida's top end/elite guys, the players who "drive the bus," are all big/heavy and spent little to no time in the AHL...

Depth players are the ones who require, or should require, more development time.

Sometimes you develop a guy from the 3rd or 4th rd into a top line 9m a season player...it happens

But the games best players rarely require much AHL time

 

[jaster]

I’ve always really liked Barkov, but damn, I think he has maybe elevated himself to my favorite non-Wing. Will be nice to see this dude lift the Cup. He deserves it.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

One more game. Gonna need to buy some new pants.